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Areocharger Twin Turbo setup? Information?
- Thread starter wntsom4
- Start date
I absolutely LOVED the Aerochargers setup though it got some bad ratings by some.. The full boost at 2000 rpm was just freaking amazing! I rode in one on an on-ramp here and even comparing my 375 RWHP hi-boost Supercharger, it doesn't compare.. I'm sure on the high end, I'm making more power and would take it, but probably not by much and the thing is kick ass.
I heard the first gen had some turbo issues, but they had a 2nd gen that fixed them. If you can get a set or a car with a set, get them, just budget that you MAY have to get a new FI setup. Big deal, enjoy it. I said MAY, and it MAY also last for a long time. I'd trade my SC setup for a good Aerocharger nearly any day of the week...
Keep us posted!
I heard the first gen had some turbo issues, but they had a 2nd gen that fixed them. If you can get a set or a car with a set, get them, just budget that you MAY have to get a new FI setup. Big deal, enjoy it. I said MAY, and it MAY also last for a long time. I'd trade my SC setup for a good Aerocharger nearly any day of the week...
Keep us posted!
Anyone know if they are still making these or do service? Does anyone have a photo of one installed?
This is the basis for the current cartech turbocharger system... it was a good kit, with the aerodyne turbochargers - the problem came when aerodyne went out of business.
Basically, the aerodyne turbo uses a self-contained oil supply, similar to a supercharger, so oil doesn't need to be diverted from the engine to lubricate the turbo, and doesn't need to drain back into the pan, you just need to stick the aerodyne in the engine bay, and plumb the exhaust into it. If the aerodynes were regularly serviced, they were fairly reliable; if they weren't, then they weren't.
The problem is, they use a special oil which was only produced by aerodyne - when aerodyne went under, so did the supply of oil, and the original turbochargers could no longer be serviced, or used.
After this happened a company (cartech) installed standard turbochargers in place of the aerodyne's, and continued selling the kit. They plumbed oil to the turbos, setup a scavenger system to bring oil back into the pan, and used the same intake and exhaust layout. There are been some pretty negative reviews of the way in which cartech achieved this, and cartech themselves have provided a poor level of customer service. A lot of cartech kits have poor oil plumbing, many will blow oil as a result - some have been setup well, I think factorX made modifications to several of these kits to produce an acceptable result.
I am not sure if there is a source for oil, or spare parts, to service the aerodyne turbochargers - this was a big concern a few years ago, if a company produces these components now, it would be less of a concern. I think the performance of the kit is generally regarded as being positive, although most reviews are from a time when there were few FI options... a twin turbo solution will probably spool quickly, but may not flow as well as a big single at higher rpm levels.
Basically, the aerodyne turbo uses a self-contained oil supply, similar to a supercharger, so oil doesn't need to be diverted from the engine to lubricate the turbo, and doesn't need to drain back into the pan, you just need to stick the aerodyne in the engine bay, and plumb the exhaust into it. If the aerodynes were regularly serviced, they were fairly reliable; if they weren't, then they weren't.
The problem is, they use a special oil which was only produced by aerodyne - when aerodyne went under, so did the supply of oil, and the original turbochargers could no longer be serviced, or used.
After this happened a company (cartech) installed standard turbochargers in place of the aerodyne's, and continued selling the kit. They plumbed oil to the turbos, setup a scavenger system to bring oil back into the pan, and used the same intake and exhaust layout. There are been some pretty negative reviews of the way in which cartech achieved this, and cartech themselves have provided a poor level of customer service. A lot of cartech kits have poor oil plumbing, many will blow oil as a result - some have been setup well, I think factorX made modifications to several of these kits to produce an acceptable result.
I am not sure if there is a source for oil, or spare parts, to service the aerodyne turbochargers - this was a big concern a few years ago, if a company produces these components now, it would be less of a concern. I think the performance of the kit is generally regarded as being positive, although most reviews are from a time when there were few FI options... a twin turbo solution will probably spool quickly, but may not flow as well as a big single at higher rpm levels.
I am going from memory so do not quote me on this, but the rights to the Aerodyne's were bought back by Aerocharger and they are back in production and the old units can be serviced again, however I think there is just one guy that can work on these units and not shure of the turn around times on rebuilds or getting needed supplies.
I would send a private message to a Prime member SJS, he has this setup and would know how best to answer your questions. He is not on Prime alot anymore but he is the man when it comes to the aerodyne's.
More info here: http://www.aerocharger.com/
Dave
I would send a private message to a Prime member SJS, he has this setup and would know how best to answer your questions. He is not on Prime alot anymore but he is the man when it comes to the aerodyne's.
More info here: http://www.aerocharger.com/
Dave
Correct, SJS is very knowledgeable about Aerochargers. HiPerformance LLC is now manufacturing and servicing Aerochargers in Kansas. Josh Kennedy is the tech there that does the servicing. In fact I talked to him today. He said turnaround time is not bad at all.
So if this is such a good system, why is nobody making it anymore or using twin turbos for their set-ups? How many people on this site actually use it? I think NSXLOVER had this setup, but he modified it so much I don't think you can even consider it the Cartek Car.
Corky Bell founded Cartech in 1977. In 1992, he formed Bell Engineering Group Inc (BEGI) and developed the Aerocharger equipped TT kit. He stopped making the TT kit when Aerodyne (makers of the Aerocharger) looked to be going out of business in 2002. For several years, there was no support or servicing from Aerodyne so the market for the BEGI TT kit understandably dried up.
A couple of guys stepped in and bought the rights to the kit, including the name of the company, Cartech, and set about converting the turbos from Aerochargers to T28 conventional turbos, which required an oiling system. They apparently had a poorly designed oiling system and even worse customer service (ask Jorligan), so they quickly got a bad reputation for their kit and perhaps ruined the reputation of the original Bell TT kit by association. Cartech's new owner's adaptation lost two of the best qualities of the Aerochargers, self-contained oiling and variable vane turbine nozzles.
The original Bell TT kit got good reviews before the Cartech successor episode. Seemingly, the only complaint back then was the fuel/ignition system (which had basically the same plan of attack that the CTSC used) wasn't reliable enough. Now that we have AEM EMS and better fueling systems, and Aerocharger is back in business and servicing the older Aerodyne units, the Bell TT mechanicals should shine again.
Here are some select quotes from the history books of NSX Prime to back up the answers to your questions:
Justin:
David's answers to your questions pretty much sum it up for me as well.
I agree with Lud regarding the 2 scenarios he mentioned (easiest install/maintenance = SC, most power/lots of time & tweaking = custom turbo). But, there's a third scenario which is the one I have - a twin turbo kit. The TT kit falls in between a Comptech Kit and a custom turbo setup, and is closer to the Comptech side of things. It does not require much in the way of customization and tweaking as it IS a kit and not a custom install. We spent a total of about 2.5 to 3 days installing the kit (One long Friday night, and 2 Saturdays.)
Re: turbo lag, the twin turbo kit is no more laggy than an SC kit, and in fact should produce boost earlier (at low rpms) than an SC since the turbo will respond to engine load whereas the SC only responds to what RPM you're currently at.
My turbo system is currently set at 4psi, so there's a touch more lag right now compared to when I raise to 6psi (the boost-reduction mechanism has to kick in earlier to slow the turbos as they reach 4psi, adding more "lag"), yet when I repeatedly raced Sam's Comptech SC car with the "9 lb" kit there was NO difference in response between our two cars no matter what gear we raced in.
First off, numbers will always be different between two sources for the IDENTICAL car. Some guy or customer at Bell Engineering testing the car and coming up with those #'s vs. how a magazine tests a car is guaranteed to give you different results.
On top of that, the cars you mentioned weren't at all identical. The Bell #'s (which are several years old) were for a 3.0/5 speed NSX, a car that tested in the mid 14's for the 1/4 mile. The magazine #'s you quoted were for a new 3.2 6 speed and are generally acknowledged as seeming on the aggressive side.
If you want before & after numbers, check out the FAQ or put a request in to the FAQ Nazi, you'll find a couple different NSX'ers posting low 12 second (12.3) 1/4 mile times after installing a Bell TT kit on their 3.0 cars..
>Why did you do twin turbo's vs. supercharge or vice versa?
I don't want to start another Turbo vs. SC debate, so just consider the following my beliefs/opinions..
Several reasons... The first was power. The dyno charts I've seen for most SC cars simply didn't look as nice as the dyno's for the Bell TT cars. The Bell TT kit gives you more power at a lower boost setting. This is possible because they are more efficient, they don't leech much horsepower like a belt-driven SC does, and they put out cooler air (twin intercoolers are included in the kit). Also, I generally saw faster 1/4 mile times posted by TT guys compared to SC guys, which seemed to back up my belief that the TT kit has a better powerband.
Next was cost. On the surface, the cost of the TT kit seems similar to the cost of an SC kit (with the exception of the Comptech kit for a Targa car, which is priced noticeably higher, at ~$11K!). But when you look deeper you find the TT kit includes dual intake systems, and the complete exhaust system. You would still have to buy those for the SC system, and that's nearly another $2000.
My targa top played a role in the decision too. You can't have a targa top holder with the Gruppe M setup, and the Comptech one requires you replace the factory one with their cheaper version (and as mentioned, it's much more expensive than their non-targa SC kit).
I'm also smog-paranoid, and I like stealth. The TT setup is very stealth compared to any of the SC options. The engine compartment can be made to look totally stock to the average person/police officer. There's good potential the car could pass the visual for the smog test too given past experiences with the NSX.
Those were the main reasons, there were various other smaller reasons too (ability to adjust boost to higher or lower levels, it's nice to have something "different", my past few cars have been turbo, etc).
As I've said in the past though, I still recommend an SC kit for most NSX'ers, the TT kit is really only useful for the small # of NSX'ers who want to push the power limits more and don't mind "getting into the details" (or have a great tuner near them they can trust to take care of the details).
Hope this helped!
Marc
97 NSX-T Twin Turbo
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Ditto (to the positive posts). I can tell you that my butt dyno on the Aero put me much further back in the seats at mid/low rpm than my hi-boost supercharger does until high rpm. And this was with 5.5 PSI! (I'm running 7 PSI , and the bell's can do upto 8 psi or so). Full boost at ~2000 RPM!! The CT makes like what, 1-2 PSI at ~20000 RPM? It doesn't even compare, I'm sure the torque difference until about 5000 RPM probably as high as 50 FT lbs of torque.
If I could find a clean system.with confidence that it will be reliable
and swap it out for about the same cost, I'd do it in a heart beat.
Looking for answer besides the Fanboy here.
If I could find a clean system.with confidence that it will be reliable
now, isn't that the truth... there is no confidence.
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There is an opportunity here for someone to make a kit that is self-contained and produces full boost at low-rpm. Why has no one does this? I think Porsche's new system does something similar.
Fanboy? Ouch.
I didn't give any opinions as to the demise of the kit, just an historical background of the factors surrounding the kit during the time it seemed to get left behind. The quotes I posted were also not my opinion but that of a bunch of different Primers who had first hand experience with the kit.
Here's me with my Fanboy hat on: I say boost is boost, be it SC, single turbo, twin turbo. It's not the air pump that is as critical as the supporting systems. Namely if you get the fuel and ignition right, the motor doesn't care too much how you went about cramming extra air in there. I think the horror stories of engines blowing up under forced induction have more to do with the lack of sufficient fuel and/or incorrect ignition timing. Now that the Fuel /ignition systems have been improved so much since 2002, I believe a Bell TT can be just as good as a CTSC or single turbo. Porsche used to do single turbos on the 930 then switched to twins. There are pros and cons of both.
The mere fact that the kits aren't prevalent is an indicator of it's worth? I don't agree - that's not a sufficient factor to evaluate the merits of the kit. I don't think they make the "Green Machine" (sort of like a Big Wheel but you steered the back wheels with two levers) anymore. But I sure enjoyed it when I was a kid and I bet my kid would have a blast with it even now.
Maybe YOU should tells US, in your infinite wisdom :wink:, what makes a Bell TT kit so inferior? Give us objective technical facts not subjective opinion. At the end of your response be sure to include the phrase, "This is the word of the FI Lord. Thanks be to Dave."
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You have to tell us WHY we should not have confidence rather than expect us to take YOUR word for it. If you don't have facts to back up what you're saying then you're just slandering.
I think there is an opportunity for Cartech. Assuming they still own the rights to the Bell TT kit and are still in the business of making their adapted version, they could certainly go back to using Aerochargers. This would eliminate any difficulties they had with oiling the turbos. They could even switch to the larger 66000 model Aerochargers and push even more boost than the old ones. It would only require changing the mounting flange for the exhaust to match the new turbine inlet.
Perhaps the reason it has not happened is the cost of Aerochargers. The original smaller size turbos are $2050 each while the larger ones are $2500. So unless the kit producer gets a good discount from HiPerformance LLC, you're already looking at $4100 to $5000 just for turbos, then another $1000 or so for intercoolers, then the piping and connectors. If they wanted to produce a "complete" kit, you need to add EMS (for OBD1) or FIC (for OBD2), bigger injectors, aftermarket fuel pump and regulator, etc. The cost could add up. You'd probably have the ultimate NSX turbo system but it wouldn't be near as affordable as the current crop of single turbos.
Just my opinion.
Supercharger will run you 10K, minimal if done right. There is no need for higher boost on stock components. 6PSI - 8PSI is amazing amount of linear torque.
Why don't you setup a Group Buy for us?
I suppose since I'm such a "fanboy" as well, I could. The truth is, most aftermarket parts companies go bankrupt because most carguys are such cheap asses
Why don't you setup a Group Buy for us?
Ask NetViper, he'll tell you how much of a cheap ass I am. And he'd be telling the truth. We're actually good friends and he's been giving me a real hard time about my TT plans.
As far as a group buy, it's like my NSX / Scuderia Rear Bumper design, "I lay it out ... for ya'll to play it out." In reality, since I have a full Bell TT kit, I've thought about mocking up jigs to replicate it, but then again, I already have a day job.
Now that I think about it, since the Scuderia rear bumper is a center exit exhaust, if I develop both together, I could probably package the Aerochargers better than the original Bell TT kit, using larger intercoolers!
David
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My goal is to save my friend from a ton of headaches. If the kit was perfect and simple bolt on and go, I would be all for it. I know that is not the case, FAR from it.
I'm not knowledgeable, but I am curious. Variable vane and self contained sounds good to me, but I don't see any current kits using the turbochargers. Why is that? Is it the expense? Durability? The fact that they were out of production for a few years? Is it a size problem? Just recently someone listed 10+ turbo venders for the NSX, yet no one is currently using the Aerochargers in their kits.
Being self contained seems like would simplify the installation, and the variable vanes seems like would help decrease lag yet allow high flows at the higher rpms.
Being self contained seems like would simplify the installation, and the variable vanes seems like would help decrease lag yet allow high flows at the higher rpms.
Re: Aerocharger Twin Turbo setup? Information?
You claim to "know" that the Aerocharger TT kit is not perfect, "FAR from it" and that we should have "no confidence" in it. Please tell us the exact faults of which you have personal knowledge, so it doesn't appear you're just spreading negative misinformation. Why summarily stifle the discussion of a potentially promising FI option without a valid factual basis? Enquiring minds (other than mine) are asking.
You claim to "know" that the Aerocharger TT kit is not perfect, "FAR from it" and that we should have "no confidence" in it. Please tell us the exact faults of which you have personal knowledge, so it doesn't appear you're just spreading negative misinformation. Why summarily stifle the discussion of a potentially promising FI option without a valid factual basis? Enquiring minds (other than mine) are asking.
Really, only the 10+ turbo vendors who don't use them can tell you why they don't. If you read some of the old posts about the Bell TT kit, it was described favorably. The predominant problems I've read about were related to tuning (fuel and timing) issues, and users pushing much more psi from the turbos than they are safely designed for. Correct tuning is a potential problem in EVERY FI system and has little or nothing to do with the primary components of the kits (superchargers, turbos, intercoolers, exhaust and charge piping, etc.)
To examine the benefits Aerocharger claims about their products, read for yourself and decide:
http://aerocharger.com/technology.php#Variable
Maybe its all BS and marketing hype, but until someone gives me some hard data otherwise, I'm keeping an open mind.
I originally had the areodyne kit on my NSX when I first got her
like 3-4 years ago. I sold the kit, not because it was a bad kit, I Just wanted more power. The kit was engineered and crafted very well. Welds was perfect, everything bolted up nicely. I didn't have the kit long 2 -3 months top before selling it so I am not really sure on the reliability. It never really gave me any problems during the little time I kept it. I am not even sure how much they cost back in their time.
like 3-4 years ago. I sold the kit, not because it was a bad kit, I Just wanted more power. The kit was engineered and crafted very well. Welds was perfect, everything bolted up nicely. I didn't have the kit long 2 -3 months top before selling it so I am not really sure on the reliability. It never really gave me any problems during the little time I kept it. I am not even sure how much they cost back in their time.
I think it would be very instructive to hear what the current kit builders have to say, good or bad, about the Aerochargers. They may even want to look into producing a kit with Aerochargers although if they have already invested the time and money to develop their own design it might not be so attractive an idea to reinvent the wheel. Presumably, they already feel they have a good design.
I recognize the Aerochargers can't produce the sort of boost the bigger conventional turbos can. However, if you have a motor with stock internals you might not want push it too hard anyway. If the Aerocharger kit has similar power yet more low end torque as the supercharger kits I think it's ideal for a stock motor. Plus it retains the catlytic converters if you need to have those for emissions.
I recognize the Aerochargers can't produce the sort of boost the bigger conventional turbos can. However, if you have a motor with stock internals you might not want push it too hard anyway. If the Aerocharger kit has similar power yet more low end torque as the supercharger kits I think it's ideal for a stock motor. Plus it retains the catlytic converters if you need to have those for emissions.
I believe so.
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