BaschBoost update, from MB

[FuryNSX]

I feel sorry for anyone who hasn't been to this forum in about a week and has to read this thread from the very beginning to understand all that's being argued.....errr....discussed.

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1995 NSX-T
1999 3.2TL
2001 Odyssey
1992 SC400

 

[Juice]

I've held my tongue so far and will continue to do so until Mark B is able to produce his product to the masses. But I am curious. Will the unveiling and dynos of the SC end this debate? Or will the "magic" be hidden within the design of the system? The way I figure it, if you don't believe the claims, wait another 2 months. Surely there will be enough data by then. When do the first 30 get their SC's again?

 

[ak]

Originally posted by ak:
I have question for those who are knowledgeble with this equation. I thought HP was a product of torque and engine RPM. So how can you derive HP without knowing your RPM? Shouldn't the output of the equation be torque? There seems to be lots of variables that are just assumed and not presented in this equation as well to make it simple. Can someone explain?

No One Answered My Question!!!

Some people refer to this equation as if Einstein came up with it or something but yet give me no detailed answer. What's up with that?


[This message has been edited by ak (edited 30 November 2001).]

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by BryanZublin:
Sjs, I think you might have misunderstood my post which stated that Mark B. has measured the fuel pressure on the dyno and on the road. This is during testing only, the actual kit does not perform any adjustment based on fuel pressure. However, I believe that installing a dash mounted fuel pressure gauge is common on the Comptech SC kit.

Yes, I misunderstood. My mistake.

Originally posted by BryanZublin:

Thanks for posting the fuel pump info. Have you noticed any increased audible noise from the Walbro 255 pump installed in your NSX? I ask because of the "noise" comment at: http://www.vfaq.com/pump-Walbros.html

I haven't noticed any increased noise, and my exhaust is not particularly loud at idle. The pump (actually the High Pressure version which is the same price as the standard) comes with a decent installation kit. For the NSX that includes a thick foam sleeve that fits tightly around the pump body to bring it up in diameter to slightly larger than stock. I suspect it does a pretty good job of dampening any noise.

Found the vendor info:

Ron Gregory http://AutoPerformanceEngineering.com

This guy was the only one willing to chase the Walbro people and find out if/when they would have a kit for the NSX and followed up quickly when he got them in, all for $125 delivered. I hope others will at least check with him when they need anything he carries.



[This message has been edited by sjs (edited 01 December 2001).]

 

[jag]

Originally posted by AndyVecsey:
Just wondering.....did Comptech or Gruppe M receive this much grief when they unveiled their respective superchargers?

No, 4g62bt2c30a wasn't born then. I'd wish he'd grow up.

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by ak:
No One Answered My Question!!!

Some people refer to this equation as if Einstein came up with it or something but yet give me no detailed answer. What's up with that?

Chill AK!

That site's primary focus is calculating the fuel required for a given HP level, which can then help to estimate injector size. The formulas which end in HP values are intended to calculate the max HP you can support with the fuel delivery capacity of a given injector at a "typical" engine efficiency (represented in terms of BSFC). It still comes back to torque and RPM that make the power, but those aren't relevant to their calculations. You could get there with more torque at lower RPM as with a Vette, or less torque and more RPM like the NSX, but the same amount of fuel per HP is required at a given BSFC. Some of the discussion here has been whether the generally accepted range of BSFC for a super charged engine applies to the NSX. If it does, then the stock injectors would appear to be inadequate if they max out at their rated capacity. These are both very big Ifs. The NSX is almost certainly more efficient than the formula assumes (as I suspect many cars are today) and it is entirely possible that the stock injectors can pump more than their nominal rating, particularly at substantially increased pressure. As Mark pointed out earlier, and I have said in numerous threads before this one, calculations are a great place to begin a design, but you are rarely able to account for all factors in even a seemingly simple situation. The proof is in testing under real-world conditions.

Hope that helps!

 

[MYNSX]

Wow,even "I" can understand that and was previously "lost" in all the technical mumbo jumbo previously posted here not that theres anything wrong with all of it.It just became hard to understand with all the s%@^t slinging that went on.I on the other hand usually have to relay on much more primative meathods such as
Mark;
1-how much is it?
2-is it gonna make my motor explode(detonate)?(effects on life of other internals);crank,block,rings,clutch,tranny,blood-pressure.
3-how much more performance(hp & torqu)
4-how many others have done it and what are the results?
5-what are your credentials
6-is there one on your car
7-Can you make the reciept say "Samuels Jewelers" or "London Gold" .




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[Yellow Rose]

Originally posted by ak:
No One Answered My Question!!!

Some people refer to this equation as if Einstein came up with it or something but yet give me no detailed answer. What's up with that?

********************************

From the book titled "The Fundamentals of Mechanical Design", Shigley, McGraw-Hill --

HP = (T x N) / 63000

Where,

HP = Horsepower
T = Torque expressed as LB-IN
N = Shaft Speed expressed as RPM



[This message has been edited by AndyVecsey (edited 01 December 2001).]

 

[MYNSX]

"Let
the competition figure it out for themselves".As far as on paper we couldn't
ever figure out how the heck Billy Glidden could dominate the Pro 5.0 circuit
for years and still does on a much smaller NOS jet size than"all the
competition".One thing is for sure he was bred on automotive performance
from a child,as if he was "born" to be a performer.Mark Basch I believe has a
true dedication and passion for what he does and his reward is knowledge of
the seemingly impossible.

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[MYNSX]

I think Mark shouldn't ever disclose his trade secrets."Let
the competition figure it out for themselves".

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[ak]

Originally posted by sjs:
Chill AK!

thanks

 

[DanO]

Originally posted by 4g62bt2c30a:

HUH? since when? Do you have an example?

Um, I always have been under the impression that fuel pressure is measured relative to manifold pressure (where it counts), not atmospheric pressure. For example, if you are running fuel at 43 psi with a N/A engine at WOT then manifold pressure is approximately atmospheric pressure and fuel delivery inside the manifold is at ~43psi. But when you add, let say 5psi of boost then the manifold is 5psi greater than atmospheric pressure (which I think is around 14psi compared to a perfect vacuum—but that doesn’t matter) and the fuel pressure inside the manifold is now only 38psi so it needs to be increased to maintain the proper pressure differential. I believe this is conventional wisdom within the auto industry and scientifically sound.

Keep in mind here, that I could be completely wrong, but I live in the Detroit area so when we discuss things like this, there’s usually an engineer around to help us out and this is the conventional wisdom I’ve picked up on. On the same note, tomorrow I’ll be hanging out with a guy who has been designing engines for about 30 years and will try to pick his brains about some of the issues we’ve discussed on this thread.

I have a couple of basic questions regarding our fuel system:

To come close to calculating the min/max duty cycle of our injectors can I assume that our injector firing sequence is sequential? Are they high or low impedance injectors?

Can someone point me in to some information that shows that our stock injectors are in fact 240cc when measured at ~43psi.

Can we assume that our max stock rail pressure is 50psi, which is what I believe the service manual says is the regulator’s max setting.

Thanks,
DanO

 

[robr]

In regards to the question about when does the 300ZXTT start to run lean, 14 lbs of boost is about it, anything over that and you need to upgrade the injectors (555cc injectors is the norm here). At that point, you're around 400hp. The Supra came with overkill injectors, makes it pretty much the easiest car on the road today to get HUGE HUGE HP out of for next to no cost.

- Rob, former owner of a '90 300ZXTT Jim Wolf Stage III

 

[hejo]

Originally posted by ak:
No One Answered My Question!!!

See the end of my post here http://www.nsxprime.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003084.html

 

[ak]

Originally posted by hejo:
See the end of my post here http://www.nsxprime.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003084.html

Thanks Hejo. I'm too lazy to convert English-metric for now(damn americans always want their own system!

). I'll try it out tomorrow during work during which I have more time to spare

 

[hejo]

Originally posted by DanO:
... I’ll be hanging out with a guy who has been designing engines for about 30 years and will try to pick his brains about some of the issues we’ve discussed on this thread.....

So DanO what did you find out?

 

[true]

Originally posted by 4g62bt2c30a:

The car runs to seperate o2 sensors, The left gauge is the front bank the right is the rear bank..... This helps meter the engine in two halves.

klsjdfksjfd, I'm sure you know metering those o2's won't tell you anything. It just tells me you wasted your money. haeha. Please don't send me a link to autometer saying to look it up.

 

[4g62bt2c30a]

Originally posted by true:
klsjdfksjfd, I'm sure you know metering those o2's won't tell you anything. It just tells me you wasted your money. haeha. Please don't send me a link to autometer saying to look it up.

Why do you say this?

 

[smoore]

if anyone dosen't believe in the set-up that mark produced just move on to another forum why is there people trying to give doubt to the set-up without really knowing???

unless they work for comptech undercover.....

 

[true]

These factory o2's have a 1 volt sweep. They are simply for emmisions in closed loop operation. When running closed loop the o2's simply cycles voltage above and behind what the ecu deems 'stoich'. I'm sure everyone with a/f gauges sees their gauges looking like nightrider in closed loop (generally under 3500RPM,partial throttle). When the car is opened up, the ecu switches to open loop which reads striaght off the preprogrammed fuel map. (doesn't use the o2 at ALL) Using stock o2's wont tell you anything except the sweep at closed loop. You cannot get your a/f from them.
I have built a 10 second honda. Hasn't gone that fast yet....but it will! I have a 4 cylinder...using 440cc injectors. Fully programmable ECU _50psi_ (ahhhh) fuel pressure. I'm not sure if im producing over 400hp in my crx, but you wouldnt catch me putting some 240cc's in there. I am in agreeance about being shaky using 240cc's and making that much power. You keep posting links to the Rc Engineering website and their calculater. Now don't forget these fuel injectors are 'rated' at 240cc. Fuel pressure near 90+ PSI will run more then 240cc through them no problem. It's interesting that honda runs their fuel injectors to NEAR 100% duty cycle from the FACTORY.(Per Hondata designers..havent verified that). I would not put a 367hp making supercharger kit on an nsx with 240's myself. Sure it WILL work...sure you COULD get 400hp out of it with 240's no prob...question is for how long. We have to remember that engines make the MOST power while running lean..on the virge of detenation. Running at 100% duty cycle is not extremely wise...especially under that high PSI. That is a major hack if you ask me. Remember...making power is ALL about the tuning..you can't tune with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. ahshd

 

[Craig]

Lud, would you please put a lock on this thread? This way we don't keep wasting our time wading through the crap each time we think there might be new...pertinent, info about the S.C.

 

[4g62bt2c30a]

Originally posted by true:
These factory o2's have a 1 volt sweep. They are simply for emmisions in closed loop operation. When running closed loop the o2's simply cycles voltage above and behind what the ecu deems 'stoich'. I'm sure everyone with a/f gauges sees their gauges looking like nightrider in closed loop (generally under 3500RPM,partial throttle). When the car is opened up, the ecu switches to open loop which reads striaght off the preprogrammed fuel map. (doesn't use the o2 at ALL) Using stock o2's wont tell you anything except the sweep at closed loop. You cannot get your a/f from them.
I have built a 10 second honda. Hasn't gone that fast yet....but it will! I have a 4 cylinder...using 440cc injectors. Fully programmable ECU _50psi_ (ahhhh) fuel pressure. I'm not sure if im producing over 400hp in my crx, but you wouldnt catch me putting some 240cc's in there. I am in agreeance about being shaky using 240cc's and making that much power. You keep posting links to the Rc Engineering website and their calculater. Now don't forget these fuel injectors are 'rated' at 240cc. Fuel pressure near 90+ PSI will run more then 240cc through them no problem. It's interesting that honda runs their fuel injectors to NEAR 100% duty cycle from the FACTORY.(Per Hondata designers..havent verified that). I would not put a 367hp making supercharger kit on an nsx with 240's myself. Sure it WILL work...sure you COULD get 400hp out of it with 240's no prob...question is for how long. We have to remember that engines make the MOST power while running lean..on the virge of detenation. Running at 100% duty cycle is not extremely wise...especially under that high PSI. That is a major hack if you ask me. Remember...making power is ALL about the tuning..you can't tune with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. ahshd

I agree with some of your quote....but there is one problem. The gauges are connected to there own sensors... My car has 4, 2 for the ecu and 2 for metering a/f. In my original statement it does state that I run 2
seperate o2s.... So no I did not waste my money...

Corey

 

[true]

What o2's are they connected to? It's still not worth it sorry..cause they aren't wideband (5 wire) +5v pieces. Your gauge wouldnt read them anyways. I don't blame you a lot of people are tricked by these silly o2 a/f gauges. Your gauge's might not nightride like most peoples, but they are still inaccurate....and a waste if you ask me. :]

[This message has been edited by true (edited 05 December 2001).]

 

[4g62bt2c30a]

Originally posted by true:
What o2's are they connected to? It's still not worth it sorry..cause they aren't wideband (5 wire) +5v pieces. Your gauge wouldnt read them anyways. I don't blame you a lot of people are tricked by these silly o2 a/f gauges. These might not nightride like most peoples a/f gauges then, but they are still not accurate.. are they ho2's? Where did you install them? you got stock exhaust manifolds?

I have comptech headers... They are mounted in the header... They do work for day to day use. I first used a true voltmeter and then followed up with these for ease of use. I can tune my car just fine... not a 10 sec honda but a 12.2 @117 Nsx is fun on the street.. What do you use on your car?

 

[true]

My car uses a fully laptop programmable ecu. I run the car openloop all the time so it reads only my fuel maps. The ecu has a function to disable o2's which I do. I tune it with a wideband o2. What are your mods? It's all motor? 12.2 n/a is fast.