Best 6.5 " Speakers ...

[TURBO2GO]

Then why did you say a few days ago that you were considering a set of those ridiculous multi thousand dollar 6 1/2" Focals?

I am a Focal home dealer Hugh. That's why. I was talking about the K2's which are definitely not multi-thousand dollar. As for speaker technology not changing, it's not all BS, a modern woofer/tweeter will definitely outperform its equivalent of what was made since your old ass was selling Marantz. :biggrin:

Also the idea of seperates is not so you can move the tweeter away, although that is something you can do. Most coaxials aren't going to have the performance of seperates because of the crossover alone. I do agree that the tweet should be close to the woofer but some of that issue can be addressed with time alignment.

I'm also in the market for a set of speaker plates and 6.5 seperates. I'm currently running some boston acoustics pro 4.5" seperates inside the oem bose enclosure. I want more mid and think 6.5 is the way to go.

Anybody knows if the Focal k2 165k2p will fit nicely inside the door panel? Should I get the 165k2p or the cheaper 165kf? Or maybe the Boston Acoustic pro60?

Any opinion on which speaker plate to get?

Thnx.

Henry.

Henry both are good but if you can afford the K2P get that one. It will fit, several members here have them. I think D'ecosse's plates should work with this one.

 

[Malibu Rapper]

+1 regarding VIFA and Scanspeak. I, too, have used VIFA drivers with great success.

They are good speakers. But remember also that you want to stick to automotive grade speakers if possible or else your speakers will not last very long. There are a number of differences such as cone material & treatments, adhesives, surrounds, etc.

I remember when car subs first started using butyl rubber surrounds. Then when wintertime came, it was so cold that the surrounds were harder and subs had to warm up to overcome that.

 

[zetoolman]

Any opinion on which speaker plate to get?

Thnx.

Henry.

I am partial to Zetoolman's :biggrin:
Improved design to put the speaker in better position in the door. And, might as well get a sub while you are at it! :wink:

 

[Bigglezworth]

Which speakers would be the best to use in conjunction with zeetoolman's 6.5 speaker plates?

Thanks for your help.

Ian

Lots of options. I have different midrange speakers in all 5 of my rides. They range in price and sound quality. Soundstream, Polk, Bang & Olufsen, Dynaudio, and Eclipse. Like someone else stated, don't get too hung up on spending a copious amount of money on speakers since the last thing the NSX is is a perfect venue for audiofile music.:tongue:

 

[02#154]

Then why did you say a few days ago that you were considering a set of those ridiculous multi thousand dollar 6 1/2" Focals?

I've been involved in the audio biz since back when Marantz was still selling their tube equipment. The basic round speaker hasn't changed a bit in all those years. It's like trying to improve a drinking straw.

Sure manufacturers have to market their new shit so they come up with cast baskets, plastic cones, gold contacts, beryllium voice coils, adhesives synthesized from hippo semen and on and on and on. The bottom line is that it's all the same shit. Your and send alternating current through its bitsy wires that generate a changing magnetic field and that makes the cone move back and forth. I beliive Cambodian oxcarts have moved along at similar innovative pace.

The other big consideration is the human ear. Each of us has differently shaped ear canals and different sensitivity from our auditory nerves. In plain English that means that no two people hear the same speaker the same way.
That's why God invented tone contols and equalizers.

A great set of 6 1/2" speakers can be had for about $300 or less. I use JL XR650-CXi coaxials.

There is no need to get seperates because the tweeter will be too far away from the mid range and in such a small cockpit as the NSX will fuck up your imaging quality.

The JLs have been in Charlotte almost 4 years and 120,000 miles and have never hiccuped and I listen to a LOT of Iron Maiden played LOUD.

Buy what sounds good to you, don't spend a lot of money and enjoy the results.

If you truly believe your own BS, why did you upgrade to the JL's? If it's because the stocks were blown or otherwise not working, why spend even $300? Go to radio shack and buy the $50 set. Or better yet, go to "Crazy Eddy's" at the swap meet and get a 10" sub along with the main speakers for $50? You don't see the flaw in your logic?

I'll tell you what. Send me your JLs, and I'll send you a brand new set of Jensens from Kragen Auto. Same difference, right?

J

 

[hofffam]

They are good speakers. But remember also that you want to stick to automotive grade speakers if possible or else your speakers will not last very long. There are a number of differences such as cone material & treatments, adhesives, surrounds, etc.

I remember when car subs first started using butyl rubber surrounds. Then when wintertime came, it was so cold that the surrounds were harder and subs had to warm up to overcome that.

These companies DO make automotive grade components. One of the nice things about them is that they are generally bling free - and not aimed at the contest crowd. So they don't chrome the magnets nor supply momo-like grills.

I agree with Turbo that one of the biggest problems with coaxes is the crossover. Most coaxes (maybe not JL) have a single capacitor as a high pass on the tweeter.

My own priority with car audio is to achieve balanced frequency response first. I want highs, mids, lows in proper proportions. Imaging is relatively low in the priority list for me. That's why I can accept component tweeters a bit far from the mid. Custom kick panels where the mid and tweeter are together but aimed at my pants leg just doesn't sound right to me.

I favor active crossovers because they are inherently adjustable. The extra cost isn't that much and is partially offset by not buying passive crossovers.

 

[Malibu Rapper]

These companies DO make automotive grade components. One of the nice things about them is that they are generally bling free - and not aimed at the contest crowd. So they don't chrome the magnets nor supply momo-like grills.

I do know that some make them because I've sold them in the past. Scan-Speak does not though. The closest thing you will find is the Alpine F1 status drivers which appear to use Scan-speak components. Vifa had a real short run at car audio speakers, now under the Peerless name, but the problem with them is that they weren't engineered well. They didn't fit well and the effort wasn't put in place to make it friendly for the installer or the consumer. It was nice to see that Vifa re-engineered their tweeter for the Polk SR components.

Custom kick panels where the mid and tweeter are together but aimed at my pants leg just doesn't sound right to me.

If unobstructed and aimed properly kickpanels sound great. Coaxials or tweeters next to mids in the doors also sound great. Though I've always preferred dashmounted speakers myself.

The NSX can be a great platform for audio. It's noisy when moving, but when stopped, the interior is very strong and quiet. Rattle free and damped well from the factory. My favorite thing is being able to have the subwoofer in the front which allows me to use a higher crossover point (they can play very well over 75 hz) without being able to localize the sub. In turn it alleviates the stress on the door speakers and really allows them to shine.

 

[hofffam]

I mentioned Scanspeak with Vifa because they are part of the same company (also joined with Peerless). You're right - Scanspeak no longer makes autosound drivers.

I have been using a Vifa P17WJ 4 ohm version (no longer made) for some time as a door midbass in my Ridgeline. The Vifa D26 tweeter is specially designed for autosound and costs just $30 or so. Very nice soft dome.

There are some interesting drivers too from companies like Aurasound and Tangband that are useful in autosound.

It just amazes me sometimes how some people think the only woofers worth using are something like a JLW7.

 

[CarCrazed4Life]

...The closest thing you will find is the Alpine F1 status drivers which appear to use Scan-speak components...

That line alone elevates my respect for how knowledgeable Malibu Rapper is on his car audio as its rare to see someone who knows their speakers that well

 

[Malibu Rapper]

That line alone elevates my respect for how knowledgeable Malibu Rapper is on his car audio as its rare to see someone who knows their speakers that well

Thanks. I read confirmation anywhere that they are indeed Scan-Speaks but I'll let the pictures speak for themselves. You can see that Alpine treated the cones to protect it from the car environment.

Real deal:

 

[nsxhk]

It just so happened that I got a great deal on the Boston Pro60 so I guess the speakers chose me.

After looking at the specs:

Mounting Cutout Diameter
5" (127mm)

Mounting Depth
2-3/8" (60mm)

Mounting Depth with Spacer
2-1/16" (52mm)

Will I have any problem fitting these speakers + crossover inside the nsx door panel with speaker plates? I can't return them if they don't fit.

Please help.

Thnx.

Henry.

 

[morrow]

You may want to consider the DLS Iridum line. I use the 6.2's with their amps and the sound is great. Speaker location and final tuning have a lot to do with the overall performance of the speaker. If you are looking for a more simple install I recommend looking at a GOOD speaker and a spend a little extra on a good system tune. A great budget speaker is the JL VR series components. These have a great sounding silk tweeter and are not as location specific as some of the higher end speakers.

High end stereos are like high end cars... they require proper tuning to get the best performance out of them. You need to find the NSX version of your speaker... install it once and enjoy it for many years without all the tweaky BS. Unless you are a screwed up audiophile and then you will never be happy, no matter how much the cost.

 

[BluryNSX]

Thanks. I read confirmation anywhere that they are indeed Scan-Speaks but I'll let the pictures speak for themselves. You can see that Alpine treated the cones to protect it from the car environment.

Real deal:

so in your opinion would these be a good alternative to some of the other brands mentioned? reason I ask is the audio shop I deal with gives me great pricing on alpine so if they are the same I could get a great speaker at a good price...

also is this a good deal on the k2p's everyone keep reffering to?
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3411

 

[Malibu Rapper]

so in your opinion would these be a good alternative to some of the other brands mentioned? reason I ask is the audio shop I deal with gives me great pricing on alpine so if they are the same I could get a great speaker at a good price...

Even a good price would be over $1k for that set so depends on your budget. After you spend over about $350-400 for a set of components, you really get into diminishing returns. Often times, people actually prefer the sound of less expensive speakers. It's nice to have recommendations for what speakers to audition but definitely try to listen to them before you buy them.

 

[Big_D]

I found these...the non upgraded versions ...a little cheaper

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_1690_Focal+165+K2P.html

I just noticed they are on back order...

 

[350ztoronto]

great thread, has anyone compared the focal k2p with the jl zr650
they are roughy the same price, a friend who does audio installs said that a one of his customers had the jl xr650 and switched them to the newer jl zr650 and he couldn't believe the difference.

Quy

 

[TURBO2GO]

I would just point out that Focal's inverted dome tweeters have close to double the dispersion that most standard dome tweeters have. In a car where you sit off axis a lot, that can be very important. It creates a much wider sweet spot.

 

[350ztoronto]

awsome thx for the reply =)
i've always wanted a set of focals but the price 2 years ago really turned me off ended up getting a set of jl xr650 instead =/

 

[hofffam]

I would just point out that Focal's inverted dome tweeters have close to double the dispersion that most standard dome tweeters have. In a car where you sit off axis a lot, that can be very important. It creates a much wider sweet spot.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but as good as Focal's drivers are, the inverted dome has very little dispersion advantage over non-inverted domes of the same size. Dispersion is controlled by the size of the driver. When the wavelength of the sound exceeds the circumference of the driver dispersion falls off. The Focal tweeter is essentially a 20mm dome, slightly smaller than the typical 1 inch dome so its dispersion should be better than the typical tweeter.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Hoffam, negative domes are superior on many levels.

1-you can only glue the moving coil to a positive dome on its outer edge. on an inverted, you can put it anywhere on the dome. MUCH lower overall mass.

2- as the coil is on the outer edge of the positive dome, it is effectively only pushing on the LIP of the dome, not the dome itself. Therefore, the whole dome flexes, and depending on the material, it can start distorting in shape after about 8 kHz. Soft positive dome surfaces look like waves on the sea above the upper midrange. NOT very good dispersion characteristics from that. Metallic domes flex a lot too- at 15 kHz, the metal dome will ripple like the soft at 9 kHz. The center of the metal dome will stop moving- only the LIP is moving. This results in a lot of distortion, HUGE phase problems and horrible dispersion. The coil has enormously better mechanical integration with the negative dome as it is glued half way (approximately) down the side of the dome. This is a much better coupling between coil and diaphragm. The coil pushes on the SIDE of the diaphragm. The negative dome acts like a pure piston. There is some distortion in the shape of the diaphragm at higher frequencies, especially over 15 kHz, but NOTHING like what we see in the positive domes. Less distortion in shape results in better dispersion characteristics.

3- A positive dome's coil is glued to the lip of the dome, right beside where it is glued to the suspension holding it to the baffle and motor. Sound is emitted directly off of the coil, into an area of the diaphragm where there is much mechanical motion and flex. Disturbance of kinetic energy from the suspension. A suspension that will negatively affect the dome- something that is inherently difficult if not impossible to correct. These problems are solved in a negative dome.

4- I think you are referring to the diameter of the dome, not the circumference. This is essentially a non-issue with the Focal tweets. You used to have to control 'ringing' within the volume of the inverted dome when metals like titanium were used. Then you have to use phase plugs to eradicate that distortion. The shallower diaphragms that Focal uses today with improved metals such as aluminium-magnesium alloy and beryllium, this is a non-issue. As you can see all the phase plugs are gone.

 

[hofffam]

Hoffam, negative domes are superior on many levels.

1-you can only glue the moving coil to a positive dome on its outer edge. on an inverted, you can put it anywhere on the dome. MUCH lower overall mass.

2- as the coil is on the outer edge of the positive dome, it is effectively only pushing on the LIP of the dome, not the dome itself. Therefore, the whole dome flexes, and depending on the material, it can start distorting in shape after about 8 kHz. Soft positive dome surfaces look like waves on the sea above the upper midrange. NOT very good dispersion characteristics from that. Metallic domes flex a lot too- at 15 kHz, the metal dome will ripple like the soft at 9 kHz. The center of the metal dome will stop moving- only the LIP is moving. This results in a lot of distortion, HUGE phase problems and horrible dispersion. The coil has enormously better mechanical integration with the negative dome as it is glued half way (approximately) down the side of the dome. This is a much better coupling between coil and diaphragm. The coil pushes on the SIDE of the diaphragm. The negative dome acts like a pure piston. There is some distortion in the shape of the diaphragm at higher frequencies, especially over 15 kHz, but NOTHING like what we see in the positive domes. Less distortion in shape results in better dispersion characteristics.

3- A positive dome's coil is glued to the lip of the dome, right beside where it is glued to the suspension holding it to the baffle and motor. Sound is emitted directly off of the coil, into an area of the diaphragm where there is much mechanical motion and flex. Disturbance of kinetic energy from the suspension. A suspension that will negatively affect the dome- something that is inherently difficult if not impossible to correct. These problems are solved in a negative dome.

4- I think you are referring to the diameter of the dome, not the circumference. This is essentially a non-issue with the Focal tweets. You used to have to control 'ringing' within the volume of the inverted dome when metals like titanium were used. Then you have to use phase plugs to eradicate that distortion. The shallower diaphragms that Focal uses today with improved metals such as aluminium-magnesium alloy and beryllium, this is a non-issue. As you can see all the phase plugs are gone.

Turbo2go - I think you are correct about diameter vs. circumference. The wavelength of a 10Khz signal is about 1.3 inches. Most 1 inch tweeters start to narrow their dispersion around 10K. My basic point is that dispersion is a function of size, not shape.

The inverted dome is not new although Focal is the primary user of that design today. EPI (Epicure) used inverted domes over twenty years ago. They weren't metal though. As far as I know the inverted dome is not patented so any manufacturer could use it if they wanted. NEAR produced inverted dome tweeters not long ago.

I'm not trying to knock Focal. Their drivers are highly respected and used in several high end speakers other than their sister brand JM Labs. Many of your points, like piston behavior, have also been addressed by other positive dome designs. Some example include Morel Esotec and Accuton. Any many soft domes expect to become ring radiators as the frequency goes up. These tweeters are the dominant design, even in many highly regarded speakers.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Turbo2go - I think you are correct about diameter vs. circumference. The wavelength of a 10Khz signal is about 1.3 inches. Most 1 inch tweeters start to narrow their dispersion around 10K. My basic point is that dispersion is a function of size, not shape.

I have a question for you... do you think anyone else on the forum really cares about our "dispersion discussion"? lol... I have a suspicion we have lost everyone by now...

 

[hofffam]

I have a question for you... do you think anyone else on the forum really cares about our "dispersion discussion"? lol... I have a suspicion we have lost everyone by now...

Yes - we are off track. Sorry about that....

 

[CarCrazed4Life]

If it helps I'm using Dynaudio 242GTs with a custom 7" Speaker Plate versus the standard 6.5". I don't know what it is about the combo, maybe the awesome tight midbass or maybe the clear crisp highs without being bright... But I do love these speakers!

Alpines F1 stuff is nice but overpriced.
MB Quart is too tingy/bright
Boston Acoustics isn't bad, but I haven't tried the new stuff.
JL Audios were decent for their price as well.
Focals were nice, but I only really like the kevlar components.

Everything else just never stood out for me.

 

[drivingnirvana]

Focal Utopia Be - It blew me away.