Brake Bleed procedure for new 00-05 ABS system

[RYU]

Does anyone have these instructions?

I see the bleed procedure for the old setup but I can't seem to find for the new setup. I'm under the impression they don't need to be bled independently from the calipers but i'm not sure..

Thanks for any advice!

 

[jwmelvin]

The 2000 Supplement says "Brake fluid replacement and air bleeding procedures are the same as vehicles without ABS. To ease bleeding, start with the front wheels." See 19-9.

Here's the diagram:

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Was never asked this, or experienced it, but it does not appear to be needed. I looked up ABS system replacement in the 00-05 service manual, and it states after replacement for the system, just bleed the brakes, no procedure for the ABS system, like the older systems. There also is not a procedure for bleeding it, which confirms it.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[RYU]

That's interesting and confirms my suspicion. Thank you guys.

I'm chasing a minor problem with my ABS light flickering on/off under really aggressive driving. I've got a diagnosis list to get thru and it started with the brake bleed. The ABS light would come on under hard braking later in the HPDE session but once I exit the turn and get on the power it turns off.

I'm hoping this isn't a case of the light coming on when ABS is activated - I guess easy to check during the next rain storm I cannot duplicate/activate it on the street even when stomping on the brakes and forcing ABS to trigger.

- - - Updated - - -

I've also removed the TCS ECU entirely.

Any ideas anyone?

 

[NSXGB]

If you've just installed the 2000+ ABS system Ive read that it is best to start at the front to save wasting lots of fluid. Otherwise I don't know a reason why you should not bleed the system as normal if you are refreshing fluid.

 

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

I guess you were asking about the initial flush after newly installed ABS modulator and if that was the case, then as Larry mentioned, there is no special requirement for it.
It’s already done at the manufacture and as the latest ABS consists part of the main brake system (it shares the brake fluid from the master cyl, unlike the classic ABS that has its own separated Hyd sys and reservoir), all solenoids are configured in a way that it can transfer the brake pressure even without the power supply.

If you cut open the Proportioning Valve (PV), you will see NSX PV doesn’t have any bias point before the PV starts reducing the brake pressure at the rear calliper (like on other ordinary production cars) so it will start acting as PV as soon as you apply even small pressure.
Therefore, when bleeding the air, it will save the time and fluid by starting from the front side on later spec ABS.
There is no problem in bleeding the air by following the old school textbook method of starting at the furthest corner from the master cyl. You will be able to bleed the air no problem but may take extra time depending on how far you emptied the system.
I use pressure bleeding so no huge deal.

Regarding the ABS light, if it’s genuine, you should be able to read the error code.
Unless you followed the specific sequence involving the brake pedal, IG key and the SCS terminal, you can’t erase the error code from the later spec ABS.
Unlike the classic ABS, removing the fuse or disconnecting the battery/cable won’t erase the error code.

From your build thread, looks like you upgraded your ABS using the KSP upgrade loom.
You need to change the loom configuration based on the factory ABS warning light circuit (3 different configuration depending on the year models) but from what you wrote, it seems you have done it properly. If done properly, the operation of the ABS light after the upgrade using the KSP loom should follow the same scenarios like on the 99/00+ spec factory ABS loom.
That is;
When you turn the IG key to ON position (P2), the ABS light will stay ON for about 2sec for the light bulb check mode. Then, if you turn the key further to crank the engine (START position, P3), the ABS light will stay OFF until you release the key for stop cranking.
As soon as you release the key and it goes back to P2, the ABS light will come back ON for another 2sec and then switches itself OFF if no errors were stored or depending on the error mode.

The loom from SoS won’t follow the above scheme as their loom uses different power source.


From what you wrote, there is a chance that you are triggering the ABS warning light due to low system voltage under sudden hard braking. If this was the case, you should see code #61 or 62. For these two codes, the ABS light will distinguish itself once your ACG voltage gets back into the normal operation window.

Or, you have damaged wire, loose connector and triggering the ABS light without actual issues. For this case, you won’t see any codes.

Kaz

 

[RYU]

Kaz! Wow, if only I could buy you a nice bottle of sake! Thank you. I have a lot of things to check out.

- - - Updated - - -

I am not 100% sure I configured the ksp harness correctly to be honest. It was all in Japanese!

Though thanks to your advice I can check the behavior of the abs light.

 

[RYU]

Regarding the ABS light, if it’s genuine, you should be able to read the error code.
Unless you followed the specific sequence involving the brake pedal, IG key and the SCS terminal, you can’t erase the error code from the later spec ABS.
Unlike the classic ABS, removing the fuse or disconnecting the battery/cable won’t erase the error code.

From your build thread, looks like you upgraded your ABS using the KSP upgrade loom.
You need to change the loom configuration based on the factory ABS warning light circuit (3 different configuration depending on the year models) but from what you wrote, it seems you have done it properly. If done properly, the operation of the ABS light after the upgrade using the KSP loom should follow the same scenarios like on the 99/00+ spec factory ABS loom.
That is;
When you turn the IG key to ON position (P2), the ABS light will stay ON for about 2sec for the light bulb check mode. Then, if you turn the key further to crank the engine (START position, P3), the ABS light will stay OFF until you release the key for stop cranking.
As soon as you release the key and it goes back to P2, the ABS light will come back ON for another 2sec and then switches itself OFF if no errors were stored or depending on the error mode.

The loom from SoS won’t follow the above scheme as their loom uses different power source.


From what you wrote, there is a chance that you are triggering the ABS warning light due to low system voltage under sudden hard braking. If this was the case, you should see code #61 or 62. For these two codes, the ABS light will distinguish itself once your ACG voltage gets back into the normal operation window.

Or, you have damaged wire, loose connector and triggering the ABS light without actual issues. For this case, you won’t see any codes.

Kaz

I was able to confirm that the startup ABS check diagnostic seems to work correctly. It all works as you said here, Kaz, except for one area. I highlighted in red.

When you turn the IG key to ON position (P2), the ABS light will stay ON for about 2sec for the light bulb check mode. Then, if you turn the key further to crank the engine (START position, P3), the ABS light will stay ON until you release the key for stop cranking.
As soon as you release the key and it goes back to P2, the ABS light will come back ON for another 2sec and then switches itself OFF if no errors were stored or depending on the error mode.

All the rest of the above functions like you said, except for the light staying on while cranking.

I've been able to monitor the ABS light coming on. It's very very random. It doesn't happen under hard braking anymore. It comes on whenever it wants to except when the car is completely stopped I haven't noticed it come on all by itself at a stop light for example. It will come on on the fwy, or when cruising, or in the canyons. It usually turns off after about 5 secs or flickers twice or so then turns off. There's no real pattern. However, today it stayed on solid until I turned off the car. After restarting it was off again and the startup diagnostic procedure was ok.

Unfortunately for me I'm not running the TCS module. I'll try to read the code but darn... I had to unplug my CEL due to the HKS F-Con Vpro install.

I think I have a bad wheel sensor but I have no idea which corner it is! Booooooooo

 

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

From what you wrote, it’s best to read the error code.
As mentioned in my previous post, you can’t erase any error codes from the latest ABS brain by simply just disconnecting the battery or unplugging the connector so unless you have wiring issue, you should have code stored in the system.

There is still a chance of wiring issue if the ABS light stays ON while cranking the engine but it has to be under the very specific and limited conditions (loosing IG2 system power while cranking) so at this stage, the ABS light looked to be genuine.

With the latest ABS, there are several error modes that will allow the ABS light to switch itself off once the issue has been solved while driving AND even before switching the IG SW Off.
Hence, best to read the error code.

As you seem to have lots of modifications, if you somehow manage to generate huge spike of current consumption exceeding the performance of the ACG and the capacity of the battery resulting in VB below 10V or above 16V while driving above 6mph, then you could trigger the ABS light and it would switch itself off at any time while you were driving once the VB recovered to the normal level even before switching off the engine.

If any of the wheel speed sensors were the cause of the ABS light, then it would have stayed ON until you switched off the engine for the sensor Open/Short failure modes so didn't seem to be the case for your issue.

If the wheel speed sensors are generating the noisy signal, then it could trigger the ABS light and it will stay ON until you switch off the engine.
Next time when you start the engine, the ABS light will stay On initially, however, after you start driving and if the sensor no longer generates the noise, then the ABS light will switch itself Off while you are driving.
I have seen this happening on several NSX including mine.

This specific ABS light mode will be the same if you have intermittent wiring issue at the power supply for the ABS pump motor.
On the KSP loom, it’s the ring terminal that you connected to the fuse screw inside the pentagonal main relay box under the bonnet/hood.


It’s fairly easy to read the error code when using the KSP upgraded loom.
You just need to GND the small terminal with a single wire coming out of the cable boot for the big orange/black connector at the ABS body.
Then, just turn the IG key into ON position without touching the brake pedal to read the error code.

You can’t use the standard blue 2pin SCS terminal at the passenger footwell for diagnosing the upgraded ABS using the KSP loom.
You can still use it for reading the error code on other control units but not for the upgraded ABS using the KSP or T3TEC loom.

Kaz

 

[RYU]

Kaz,

You are a wealth of information. Thank you very much again.

I have upgraded my alternator to a rewound/rebuilt higher output CTSC (aka. Honda Prelude reverse spin) unit. I have seen voltage spike as high up as 15.1V upon a quick blip of the throttle pedal. This might be the cause to the voltage issue you described.

Secondly, thanks for the error code reading procedure. That should be very helpful!! I assume this will be described in detail in the 00+ service manual. I'm not sure which wire to GND in the terminal you described here: You just need to GND the small terminal with a single wire coming out of the cable boot for the big orange/black connector at the ABS body. Will this flash the ABS light and am I to count the number of blinks to decipher the code? I will try to find this procedure in the service manual.
[MENTION=28830]jwmelvin[/MENTION] - Jason, by any chance do you see this procedure in the service manual?

Also, thanks Kaz for letting me know about the 2pin SCS terminal. I was worried that would be the only place I could read error codes.

By the way, I had to change my alternator because of a voltage drop at the fuel pump at high RPM. Perhaps I should put back the old 90amp CTSC/Prelude alternator and run a capacitor instead.

 

[jwmelvin]

Here's the chart of codes:

And yes [MENTION=20915]RYU[/MENTION], you count the ABS light flashes.

 

[RYU]

Thanks [MENTION=28830]jwmelvin[/MENTION]! Is that in the 97-01 Service Manual or is it in the Electronic Troubleshooting Manual?

Would you happen to have an electronic copy of that you can email me? I tried to look in our wiki but it appears to be down (it shows up as blank).

Is it this? http://www.amazon.com/2000-Acura-Electrical-Service-Manual/dp/B004EBIASK

 

[jwmelvin]

It's the 2000 service manual supplement. Not the ETM. It supplements the '97 Service Manual. I don't have an electronic version (that's why I bought the paper one). I'm happy to send whatever you want though.

 

[RYU]

I was digging around cached copies online and found a link. This appears to be the 97-05 copy. I'll have to check when I get home if this includes the supplement. It doesn't appear to at first glance. It isn't organized very well.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/qyzztnamtxy/1997-2005+Service+Manual.zip

- - - Updated - - -

I was hoping to get an idea of what the step by step procedure was like? For example, Kaz mentioned I need to ground something in the ABS harness to trigger the diagnostic ABS light. I'm not sure what this is. Also, in your screen shot (thanks much btw!!) I'm not sure how many flashes i'm suppose to count. For example a "Different diameter tire" error code is suppose to blink 71 times? Seems excessive but more likely i'm reading the chart wrong.

 

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

I don’t know the year model of your NSX but since you have upgraded your ABS to the later spec one body unit using the aftermarket ABS loom from KSP, you need to be bit careful when reading any wiring information including the blue SCS terminal within the ABS section of the workshop manual.

You are still using the pre-99/00 spec factory classic ABS wiring with the aftermarket adaptor loom to connect the later spec ABS unit.
On the other hand, the 99/00+ NSX models that left the factory with the latest ABS have completely different ABS loom routing within its chassis loom compared to our aftermarket solution so the wiring information and the diagram are not necessarily the same when it comes to the later spec ABS.

Once you started using the ABS upgrade loom from KSP, you can no longer use the SCS terminal for the ABS purpose. Simply because there is no connection within the KSP loom to the factory SCS circuit.

For the clarification and to prevent misunderstanding, you shall use the factory blue 2pin SCS terminal at the passenger footwell for reading error code on all of the factory control units such as the ECU, TCS, EPS, AT, etc except for the upgraded ABS using the KSP loom.
For the upgraded ABS using the KSP loom, you must use the SCS terminal at the big Orange/Black connector connected to the later spec ABS unit.

The original design of KSP loom didn’t have the SCS terminal wire coming outside of the connector boot so I had to modify their loom using the correct spare terminal.
After making the same modification on many KSP loom, I actually requested KSP to modify their loom design and since then, they started including the short wire with a terminal for the SCS function.

Not sure when you bought the KSP loom but if you check the exit of the connector boot, you will find this short single wire with a terminal if you bought the later spec KSP loom.
Just GND it to the nearby GND point on the chassis and turn the IG key into On position without touching the brake pedal.

By the way, if you are using the KSP loom on the LHD model, you need to be careful with the GND cable (the black ring terminal with short wire, close to the bottom centre of the above photo). It's bit too short for connecting it to the OEM GND point on the LHD model unless you make modification or use different GND point. If using different GND point, then please double check the GND level.

Due to IP and copyright reason, I won't be able to attach the manual on this post but if you can send me a short email using the 'Send Email' feature by clicking on my userID, I can forward some information to you.
The PDF Workshop manual used to be in the Wiki section but seems to be not functioning at the moment.


Kaz

 

[jwmelvin]

This appears to be the 97-05 copy. I'll have to check when I get home if this includes the supplement. It doesn't appear to at first glance. It isn't organized very well.

The 97-05 version that Prime linked does have the supplements, and those do include the '00 ABS. Sorry, I wasn't thinking about that. There are lots of missing pages though, so that led me to buy my own copies. I found the '97 service manual plus a '00 supplement was the least expensive.

 

[Honcho]

Reading this makes me bummed that I seem to have gotten the last KSP harness without the SCS connector.

 

[NSXGB]

Reading this makes me bummed that I seem to have gotten the last KSP harness without the SCS connector.

I believe it is not difficult to modify if you wanted to, just one wire. Others with more knowledge will hopefully confirm.

 

[GraemeD]

Reading this makes me bummed that I seem to have gotten the last KSP harness without the SCS connector.

Didn't your car move on to a new owner?

 

[Honcho]

Didn't your car move on to a new owner?

It did- still lamenting.

 

[AcuraNSX]

I guess you were asking about the initial flush after newly installed ABS modulator and if that was the case, then as Larry mentioned, there is no special requirement for it.
It’s already done at the manufacture and as the latest ABS consists part of the main brake system (it shares the brake fluid from the master cyl, unlike the classic ABS that has its own separated Hyd sys and reservoir), all solenoids are configured in a way that it can transfer the brake pressure even without the power supply.

If you cut open the Proportioning Valve (PV), you will see NSX PV doesn’t have any bias point before the PV starts reducing the brake pressure at the rear calliper (like on other ordinary production cars) so it will start acting as PV as soon as you apply even small pressure.
Therefore, when bleeding the air, it will save the time and fluid by starting from the front side on later spec ABS.
There is no problem in bleeding the air by following the old school textbook method of starting at the furthest corner from the master cyl. You will be able to bleed the air no problem but may take extra time depending on how far you emptied the system.
I use pressure bleeding so no huge deal.

Regarding the ABS light, if it’s genuine, you should be able to read the error code.
Unless you followed the specific sequence involving the brake pedal, IG key and the SCS terminal, you can’t erase the error code from the later spec ABS.
Unlike the classic ABS, removing the fuse or disconnecting the battery/cable won’t erase the error code.

From your build thread, looks like you upgraded your ABS using the KSP upgrade loom.
You need to change the loom configuration based on the factory ABS warning light circuit (3 different configuration depending on the year models) but from what you wrote, it seems you have done it properly. If done properly, the operation of the ABS light after the upgrade using the KSP loom should follow the same scenarios like on the 99/00+ spec factory ABS loom.
That is;
When you turn the IG key to ON position (P2), the ABS light will stay ON for about 2sec for the light bulb check mode. Then, if you turn the key further to crank the engine (START position, P3), the ABS light will stay OFF until you release the key for stop cranking.
As soon as you release the key and it goes back to P2, the ABS light will come back ON for another 2sec and then switches itself OFF if no errors were stored or depending on the error mode.

Kaz

Kaz I upgraded my 91 Automatic NSX with the KSP loom and it does exactly what you said, but

"When you turn the IG key to ON position (P2), the ABS light will stay ON for about 2sec for the light bulb check mode. Then, if you turn the key further to crank the engine (START position, P3), the ABS light will stay ON until you release the key for stop cranking.
As soon as you release the key and it goes back to P2, the ABS light IS ON for another 2sec and then switches itself OFF if no errors were stored or depending on the error mode"

Kaz my ABS light is doing excatly what RYU's light was doing upon start up. Is this a problem? Do I need to reconfigure the wires? All I did was hooked the two white connectors to the orange connectors I took off the ABS computer behind the glove box and got the power from the 40A ALB terminal in the fuse box, and grounded the system to a point on the old forged aluminum bracket that the modulator sits on. I did have a white and blue striped wire that didn't get hooked up to anything behind the glove box that came as part of the KSP wire harness and, a gray looking mitsuba plastic thing that I just placed behind the glove box not hooked up to anything. Did I miss something and is that why my lighting sequence is not as you suggested. Also, I have been bleeding the brakes 6 times now starting from the LF caliper and working clockwise and I am not getting the air out of the system. I am tired and getting worried that something may be wrong/blocked air that won't bubble out of my bleeder hose. Any ideas? I know you pressure bleed, I am wondering if I should? btw, I have been doing the pedal technique making sure to never fully press the pedal in so as not to damage the master cylinder. THANKS KAZ!

 

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

.....................
Then, if you turn the key further to crank the engine (START position, P3), the ABS light will stay OFF until you release the key for stop cranking.
As soon as you release the key and it goes back to P2, the ABS light will come back ON for another 2sec and then switches itself OFF if no errors were stored or depending on the error mode.
.....................

My mistake. Looks like the Forum setting won't allow editting the old post after certain amount of time so hope people will reach to this post after reading my original one from 2015.

Above section should have been;
Then, if you turn the key further to crank the engine (START position, P3), the ABS light will come back ON again and will switch itself OFF after 2sec from the point you released the key back to P2 if no error were stored or depending on the error mode.

Regarding the bleeding difficulty....
Did you prevent the master cyl from getting empty while replacing all sorts of brake pipes?


Kaz

 

[AcuraNSX]

My mistake. Looks like the Forum setting won't allow editting the old post after certain amount of time so hope people will reach to this post after reading my original one from 2015.

Above section should have been;
Then, if you turn the key further to crank the engine (START position, P3), the ABS light will come back ON again and will switch itself OFF after 2sec from the point you released the key back to P2 if no error were stored or depending on the error mode.

Regarding the bleeding difficulty....
Did you prevent the master cyl from getting empty while replacing all sorts of brake pipes?


Kaz

Thanks that clears it up! So the KSP loom hook up was ok. I wanted to order a T3Tec to support your friend in Japan, but unfortunately, I had no way of contacting them as I don't speak Japanese and I read from an old post that no one speaks English over there. lol


As for the master cyl getting empty....I am sure it got empty. Could it be that there is air trapped in there and that is why I am getting the following symptoms: When I open a bleeder at each caliper the flow of brake fluid is VERY little (30-40ml) after 40-50 pumps of the brake pedal. I know better than to push the pedal more than the standard travel distance when applying brakes in a normal situation. Never have I bottomed out the pedal to the floor, which might compromise seal(s) integrity in the master cyl. BUT when I turn on the car on and turn it back off, and repeat the procedure, I get a PROPER flow of brake fluid when I pump it just 2 times, maybe about 20-30ml with just two pumps and then the brake pedal stiffens up and the amount of fluid expelled reverts back to 30-40ml for every 40-50 pumps. Brake bleeding is supposed to be a simple procedure, lol. Since I have done the hard part! I feel like I am wasting my time bleeding the brakes. Getting no where really fast. 6 times so far. I have gone through 1/2 a gallon of brake fluid. Am I going to have to do it 7 times, 8 times, 9 times or 10 times? I figured even if did this would I be wasting my time as the trapped air is rising back to the master cylinder as it is the highest point in the brake system? Is that why I am not seeing anymore air come from the bleeder valves? Obviously, I got air bubbles initially when I first filled the brake lines with brake fluid as the two front ones were newly installed with the 02 ABS Upgrade Procedure. Will a vacuum bleeder suck out the air from the MC? or not strong enough....the Vacula has been discontinued. Maybe the Snap On vacuum bleeder $100, or I know Kaz uses a pressure bleeder, I presume that is strong enough to push all the air out from even the MC? (expensive option for a single home owner) Any thoughts?

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Just an FYI, I had a Vacula for about 20 years, it was great. I had to replace it and I now have a brand new one from "Capri Tools":

https://www.amazon.com/Capri-Tools-...y&sr=8-1-fkmrnull-spons&tag=googhydr-20&psc=1

Works just as well.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[AcuraNSX]

Just an FYI, I had a Vacula for about 20 years, it was great. I had to replace it and I now have a brand new one from "Capri Tools":

https://www.amazon.com/Capri-Tools-...y&sr=8-1-fkmrnull-spons&tag=googhydr-20&psc=1

Works just as well.

HTH,
LarryB

Hey Larry! Surprisingly, I read your old post about the Vacula, and that is why I mentioned it! Quick question for you, is it effective for removing even air stuck in master cylinder if I "accidentally" let it run dry while installing all my hard brake lines? Thanks Larry! Your input is greatly appreciated.