C30A block prep prior to boosting

[jaffaz32]

Wondering what would be involved to prep a 3.0 block for boosting reliably.

I realize many people out there have reliably strapped a turbo to their block and running low boost. Most of which are the 3.2 blocks that come with metal gaskets from factory.

Lets say you wanted to ensure the reliability of the block what is the minimum you could do? Would this allow me to run a little more power reliably?

Ideally i would not replace any pistons or get that involved.

I already have ATI crank pulley, aftermarket timing belt and tensioner.

1. How about replacing the gaskets with metal ones? Installing Billet oil pump gear and ARP head stud kit.

What's involved in each of these? would the block and heads require sending off for machining? or could a mechanic clean the heads and block without fully stripping to install the gaskets?

ARP bolts, what's involved? just removal of heads or do you have to strip back further?

Oil pump gear i have started another thread separately as it's something i would like to do regardless as a serviceable item.


2. Then there is the heads, would after market springs, retainers be a good idea and a LMA upgrade kit? or not really needed? to run with factory cams.

3. Also cam gears, Factory oem ones up to the job, what if timing is very slightly out?

Is there anything i have missed?

Lets say i did everything mentioned in 1. Would this give me more reliability if the car was boosted? where would it raise the threshold to if at all? In other words instead of running 400whp reliably could i run say 450whp or higher/lower?

As mentioned i know allot of guys don't do any of these with good results but if i wanted to try and safeguard the engine as a bare minimum would the above be suggested?

Replacing cams and pistons etc i think it a bridge i don't particularly want to cross right now as there is machine costs and complete strip down and building involved. My aim is to improve reliability just by removing the heads without stripping it down any further.

 

[BATMANs]

did u read my engine build thread?

 

[jaffaz32]

did u read my engine build thread?

Am i correct in thinking you really went to town on your build?

Posting up loads of videos from the machine shop?

I remember seeing it.

Could that help me?

 

[jaffaz32]

did u read my engine build thread?

Just looked again.

Is it the SEMI FI build thread?

You guys really went all the way, i don't really want to go that far. Stripping the bloxk and machining isn't really a option. I've had two engines built for previous cars and both went terribly wrong. Thor Racing and Scholar Engines in the UK. Good builders here are very few and far between. Not worth the risk.

I was wondering if my bored were in good condition, could i just replace the pistons with new forged ones or would it have to be machined?

I'm not trying to cut corners, just avoid complete disaster from lack of decent builders within the UK. If i done it again i would import a built block from the US . Which is very costly and not a option at present.

All i am trying to achieve is taking those little precautions without going to far. Allot of people just bolted a turbo kit up without any problems but i just want to take it one step further.

 

[CB72]

I'll let the experts answer in more detail but what you proposing requires taking the engine out of the car and opening it up to change the pistons.
It's a good idea to do so but it will be expensive.
My personal experience is that as long as you don't go beyond 400 rwhp there is no need to do that.
I've been running with my LoveFab turbo at 8 psi without any issue including track days.
Two of my friends moved to a 500 rwhp set-up and one cracked a cylinder sleeve while the other broke his piston rings.
I know there is never enough power but I can guarantee it's pure thrill to have 400 rwhp in an NSX:smile:

 

[doc_tai]

I think if ur motor been over heat, u don't need to do any machine work to install metal head gaskets. Just measure the head with straight stick make sure it not out of spec. Metal head gaskets and apr head stud is pretty much all u need to run 450 whp but still depend on what kinda gas u have over there? I would run some water/ meth injection just to be on save side. This is what exactly what I'm gonna do to my car if I'm not to lazy lol. Gl with ur build

 

[BATMANs]

Jaff,

When my engine failed from being boosted it was the piston ring lands that cracked. Nothing else was damaged.

Same story with Patchez, who was the service manager that has a turbo'd NSX and he also lost a few ring lands.

I was making more power and that probably explained why all of my pistons were damaged.

Head gaskets and other parts were fine, but replaced as a precautionary measure.

 

[doc_tai]

Thats why what gas avalible in ur area very important. 91 compare it 93 plus i dont really trust fic on hi boost car

 

[jaffaz32]

Thanks for the info.

It's good to hear that i could install metal gaskets with perhaps no need to machine the heads.

Pistons would require machining the cylinder bores. Hence why it's a no at the moment as i would just import a built block.

In the UK our fuel is rated in RON which i believe is different to what you measure in. Most pumps sell unleaded and super unleaded. which tends to be 95 ron and 97 ron however Tesco yes Tesco believe it or not sells 99 Ron and so does Shell with their VPower fuels. I'm not sure what 99 ron translates into your measurement?

What is you fuel measured in?

Batmans - What power were you and your friend running?

I would really like to be able to run 450whp safely. that's my magic number. In the UK everyone quotes Flywheel bhp because it's false and a higher number makes us feel more special haha. 450whp would probably translate to 500+ at the flywheel which is more that my previous car was. A Nsx with similar power would beat all over that all day long, it was quick but power delivery was poor and putting it down was terrible.

400whp would probably be enough for me personally. The problem nowdays is the likes of Ford Focus RS's not sure you have them, but they are easily tuned guys are running over 500bhp, also allot of Supras, Evo's and Skylines all pushing big power over 500bhp so that extra 50whp would put me closer to some of these.


Am i correct in thinking then.

400whp is the magic safety number.

If i was to go for gaskets, head studs i could perhaps push that safety number to 450whp?

If i have miss understood please do say.

Either way i will be replacing the oil pump, i've decided that and i might as well do the LMA kit.

Engine will be dropped anyway and my mechanic does me a great rate on labour because i've known him a long time and it attracts all my mates attention .

Very curious to hear what whp you and your friend was running Batmans it may make me think twice on the safety number as a precautionary.

Thanks for the input, it's one i can't really take a gamble on

CB72, We will have to meet up some time, perhaps SPA? I've heard is classed as the best track in Europe.

 

[jaffaz32]

Oh and yes i will be running Water/Meth.

It's actually physically installed, just need to inquire how to wire it up etc. I have a 50/50 mix in volume in the tank, it's been in there months and not used it, hoping it doesnt loose it's bang over time or what every you want to call it haha.

 

[CB72]

CB72, We will have to meet up some time, perhaps SPA? I've heard is classed as the best track in Europe.

Yes, that would be fun if the NSX Europe meeting works out:smile:
Coming back to the 450 rwhp, I believe it's not a question of getting the right gasket that will save your engine.
The issue is related to detonation in the combustion chamber.
When that occurs the engine goes boom whatever components you are using.
I feel like Chris from SoS about meth injection: it's a band aid not the real answer to detonation.
Going for more than 400 rwhp requires lower CR thus special pistons IMHO.

 

[doc_tai]

I think 99 Ron should be around 93 or 94 Octain in us. I wouldn't use water/meth injection for power adder but for cooling intake charge and detonation resistant.

 

[E-Nough Logic]

Even with new gaskets, the pistons are still fairly weak, and just as likely to fail than the stock gasket. The ringlands are a failure point, just like on many other Hondas with cast pistons. I don't think your power goals are beyond reasonable on stock parts but of course anything can fail at any time. A good tune would be the best measure you can take to prevent failure.

If the motor is down, why not throw a set of pistons and rods in there? The machine costs would not be all that bad just for a set of pistons, labor for the assembly would likely be the bigger factor.

 

[Mac Attack]

My $0.02.

Personally, for 450WHP, I would just run it as-is. If you take the heads off, you open yourself to a lot of potential problems anyways during reassembly. At that point, just pull the motor and go all the way.

Oil pump is iffy. I wouldn't feel strongly about replacing it unless you spend a lot of time near redline.

Good luck!

Dave

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

With high test pump fuel (91-93 octane R+M/2) we recommend 175-200 whp gains at the limit. Any more than this, then we recommend changing the pistons (as noted by hybrdthry911 above). If you want to push the power further, you can follow our "stage 1" build as shown here for an upgrade path:
http://scienceofspeed.com/products/...stom_engine_program/FI_custom_engine_program/

This is a proven solution for 280+ whp gains that have been running in NSXes for 6+ years now.

As noted, this type of work does require a seasoned professional machine shop and assembly technician for best results.

regards,
-- Chris

 

[BATMANs]

Even with new gaskets, the pistons are still fairly weak, and just as likely to fail than the stock gasket. The ringlands are a failure point, just like on many other Hondas with cast pistons. I don't think your power goals are beyond reasonable on stock parts but of course anything can fail at any time. A good tune would be the best measure you can take to prevent failure.....

..........Batmans - What power were you and your friend running?........

Even assuming that the tune was safe and there were NO detonation to worry about there is still the concerns of just how much can the stock cast pistons handle in terms of the additional dynamic pressures from FI.

I was making 430rwhp/300rwtq and my friend was making 375rwhp with the Angus turbo.

Both of us were tuned by Drivingambition.us

Both cases there were no signs of detonation (piston tops were totally fine).

Think about how Honda wants to make the most "all engine power" with VTEC, and lightweight parts. I'm pretty confident that they selected the lightest cast pistons that required the least amount of cast material to allow for high RPMs applications. I doubt that Honda even factored in that folks like us would venture into the FI storylines.

 

[jaffaz32]

Thanks for all the help guys.

So in other words if i want to run anymore than 400whp i have to do pistons. If i do gaskets i might as well do pistons also.

I will speak to my mechanic and get pricing.

So i guess this involves stripping the engine, boring the cylinders to house the pistons and a good possibility of skimming the block and heads for the gaskets. Would require a full engine gasket set. Also might as well do head studs while at it.

I think that's everything parts wise covered in Sos package, i'll weigh up the price of buying the parts from sos and getting assembled here in the UK or leaving block as is, running at 400whp and purchase a SOS stage 1 or stage 2 this time next year.

That's what it seems to be best?

 

[jaffaz32]

Even assuming that the tune was safe and there were NO detonation to worry about there is still the concerns of just how much can the stock cast pistons handle in terms of the additional dynamic pressures from FI.

I was making 430rwhp/300rwtq and my friend was making 375rwhp with the Angus turbo.

Both of us were tuned by Drivingambition.us

Both cases there were no signs of detonation (piston tops were totally fine).

Think about how Honda wants to make the most "all engine power" with VTEC, and lightweight parts. I'm pretty confident that they selected the lightest cast pistons that required the least amount of cast material to allow for high RPMs applications. I doubt that Honda even factored in that folks like us would venture into the FI storylines.

375whp? really?

i'll have to be extra careful.

 

[doc_tai]

Batman, what is Fuel/ignition Patchez use on his car with angus kit? Do u think 91 Octain gas u guys have over there in CA cause of it? Ive been run same turbo kit for 3years almost 20k miles at 400 whp without any problem.

 

[BATMANs]

Jaff,

You can also just take your chance and run it at 400rwhp with the mental preparation that an engine build is planned down the road.

This way it's really not a shocker as in the case of me.

Doc Tai, I was running the AEM FIC and I think Patchez was doing it as well. I have the full SOS SC kit which includes the 500cc injectors, fuel pump upgrade, etc.

Not sure was Patchez was running, but I assume it was probably the same since he isn't known for conducting shortcuts.

Octane related concerns are more in line with detonation, which upon visual inspection it didn't appear to be the case.

 

[doc_tai]

Maybe it has a lot to do with aem fic cause i know my tuner won't tune fic

 

[bngl3rt]

Not sure was Patchez was running, but I assume it was probably the same since he isn't known for conducting shortcuts.

Justin went from FIC to EMS when he rebuilt his engine.

 

[BATMANs]

Yep, after him and I had a talk about what may have caused our problems prior to opening up the engine.

 

[bngl3rt]

Maybe it has a lot to do with aem fic cause i know my tuner won't tune fic

Yep, after him and I had a talk about what may have caused our problems prior to opening up the engine.

I've heard lots of horror stories and don't really think F/IC is appropriate for FI applications on the NSX. It's perfect for NA stuff like the RDX injector mod but I think EMS is the way to go if you're boosted...

Which makes me wonder, how exactly do you make AEM EMS work on OBD2 cars for emissions control? I know there's a way to wire it up such that the factory ECU still controls the OBD2 port, but does it send all the right signals to pass smog?

 

[EAC]

sigh....