nicholas421 said:
You don't need time to figure this out.. All those calculations are at a speed when X can no longer go any faster. It shows that Z can still go faster; that is all it shows..
-Jeremy
-
Protip: Profile posts are public! Use Conversations to message other members privately. Everyone can see the content of a profile post.
converting p.s- to non p.s
- Thread starter djjoonie
- Start date
You don't need time to figure this out.. All those calculations are at a speed when X can no longer go any faster. It shows that Z can still go faster; that is all it shows..
-Jeremy
Jett said:
Just an FYI, your direct comparison in not very direct
. The main difference between the power vs. non power steering is that the gearing is different. Disabling the PS on a 1995+ car is not a direct comparison to a 1994 model by any means.I have driven both types, many times, and I am kind of indifferent about it. I have more then one customer though with a newer car(1995+) that formerly had an older car (manual) that felt the steering is not quite as "crisp".
I recently had a 2005 owner come to me to have me find out what was "wrong" with his car, he had a 1991 a few years ago. After a drive and some conversation I told him your car is perfect, it just has a PS rack with a different ratio. That is the biggest difference, so you need to turn the wheel further on the PS models to get the same turning radius, not bad, just different.
Like every other engineering "decision" there are trade off's. If you want easier parking ability, add power assist, and up the ratio. If you want a very precision connection to the wheels with less steering input needed for a given turning radius, do not expect it to park easy
.My $.02,
LarryB
Larry Bastanza said:Just an FYI, your direct comparison in not very direct
I have driven both types, many times, and I am kind of indifferent about it. I have more then one customer though with a newer car(1995+) that formerly had an older car (manual) that felt the steering is not quite as "crisp".
I recently had a 2005 owner come to me to have me find out what was "wrong" with his car, he had a 1991 a few years ago. After a drive and some conversation I told him your car is perfect, it just has a PS rack with a different ratio. That is the biggest difference, so you need to turn the wheel further on the PS models to get the same turning radius, not bad, just different.
Like every other engineering "decision" there are trade off's. If you want easier parking ability, add power assist, and up the ratio. If you want a very precision connection to the wheels with less steering input needed for a given turning radius, do not expect it to park easy
My $.02,
LarryB
Thanks for the informed post....
"I recently had a 2005 owner come to me to have me find out what was "wrong" with his car, he had a 1991 a few years ago. After a drive and some conversation I told him your car is perfect, it just has a PS rack with a different ratio. That is the biggest difference, so you need to turn the wheel further on the PS models to get the same turning radius, not bad, just different."
Actually, I think its backwards. PS setups have a higher steering ratio making them lock to lock quicker. A manual steering setup has a lower steering ratio, this makes the steering easier to turn but more turns to lock.
Actually, I think its backwards. PS setups have a higher steering ratio making them lock to lock quicker. A manual steering setup has a lower steering ratio, this makes the steering easier to turn but more turns to lock.
I think you forgot to carry a digit...jdc1687 said:
I carefully read all the post, and ok, it's the fact that the steering gearing is different, and the PS won't activate exccedding 25mph.
people also had experience driving different years models to feel the differnce on PS, non PS cars. People had mentioned tires, wheels making the differences.
What about the alignment setting?
I guessed if i were the owner of the later car, I wouldn't go too far with aquiring different steering parts to convert to non-PS. At least, I would try to play with the alignment, and maybe installing an aftermarket wheel (which makes a big difference on steering feel.) Yeap, it's forgoing the airbag, but it at least is not too costly to put the OEM back.
Now if you are trying to get your car to nsxR spec, (nothing wrong with that, I'm pretty sure a lot of people trying to get their car close to nsx R performance), do go all the way to convert to non PS with the momo wheel and hub.
people also had experience driving different years models to feel the differnce on PS, non PS cars. People had mentioned tires, wheels making the differences.
What about the alignment setting?
I guessed if i were the owner of the later car, I wouldn't go too far with aquiring different steering parts to convert to non-PS. At least, I would try to play with the alignment, and maybe installing an aftermarket wheel (which makes a big difference on steering feel.) Yeap, it's forgoing the airbag, but it at least is not too costly to put the OEM back.
Now if you are trying to get your car to nsxR spec, (nothing wrong with that, I'm pretty sure a lot of people trying to get their car close to nsx R performance), do go all the way to convert to non PS with the momo wheel and hub.
- Joined
- 10 November 2002
- Messages
- 1,124
"Just an FYI, your direct comparison in not very direct. The main difference between the power vs. non power steering is that the gearing is different. Disabling the PS on a 1995+ car is not a direct comparison to a 1994 model by any means."
The original poster wasn't planning on trading up to a newer car. He intends to keep the same car he owns now, and was thinking about removing the power steering. The most direct comparison that can be made is with his own car, not against another different year car. I stand by my statement. Borrowing another similar year car with manual steering isn't practical, so he should disable his p/s for a month, then reenable it and see how he feels about it when it is back on. This would be the best way for him to determine what he likes better, keeping in mind that his steering will be MORE responsive, even in non-power mode, than if he did a full power to manual conversion, which would make his steering response SLOWER than with just having his power steering temporarily disabled. (see below for a more in-depth discussion of why)
"I have driven both types, many times, and I am kind of indifferent about it. I have more then one customer though with a newer car(1995+) that formerly had an older car (manual) that felt the steering is not quite as "crisp"."
There's that part where they think if you don't feel all the wonderful road imperfections, they think it's not quite as crisp. They confuse harshness with responsiveness or "handling".
"I recently had a 2005 owner come to me to have me find out what was "wrong" with his car, he had a 1991 a few years ago. After a drive and some conversation I told him your car is perfect, it just has a PS rack with a different ratio. That is the biggest difference, so you need to turn the wheel further on the PS models to get the same turning radius, not bad, just different."
I mentioned the topic steering rations in a previous reply to this thread. The manual ratios are normally lower (numerically higher) to provide more leverage and compensate for lack of power assist. Which means that the power steering ratio is quicker than the manual ratio, ie, more responsive. So you need to turn the wheel LESS. What you SHOULD have told him is that the car was fine, but the power steering was quicker and not as harsh, so it just feels different from the other car with manual steering.
"Like every other engineering "decision" there are trade off's. If you want easier parking ability, add power assist, and up the ratio. If you want a very precision connection to the wheels with less steering input needed for a given turning radius, do not expect it to park easy."
I am familiar with the concept of tradeoffs. However, this isn't one of them. You are confused; the whole lower/numerically higher;higher/numerically lower thing is tripping you up. Power steering provides better low-speed (parking) maneuvering PLUS more responsive steering, due to having the HIGHER (numerically lower) steering ratio. If you want to fight the steering more, with MORE input needed for a given turning radius, and more parking hassles, go with manual steering, which has the lower (numerically higher) steering ratio. Your informed post isn't very informed. old_S13 is correct. You've got your information backwards.
The original poster wasn't planning on trading up to a newer car. He intends to keep the same car he owns now, and was thinking about removing the power steering. The most direct comparison that can be made is with his own car, not against another different year car. I stand by my statement. Borrowing another similar year car with manual steering isn't practical, so he should disable his p/s for a month, then reenable it and see how he feels about it when it is back on. This would be the best way for him to determine what he likes better, keeping in mind that his steering will be MORE responsive, even in non-power mode, than if he did a full power to manual conversion, which would make his steering response SLOWER than with just having his power steering temporarily disabled. (see below for a more in-depth discussion of why)
"I have driven both types, many times, and I am kind of indifferent about it. I have more then one customer though with a newer car(1995+) that formerly had an older car (manual) that felt the steering is not quite as "crisp"."
There's that part where they think if you don't feel all the wonderful road imperfections, they think it's not quite as crisp. They confuse harshness with responsiveness or "handling".
"I recently had a 2005 owner come to me to have me find out what was "wrong" with his car, he had a 1991 a few years ago. After a drive and some conversation I told him your car is perfect, it just has a PS rack with a different ratio. That is the biggest difference, so you need to turn the wheel further on the PS models to get the same turning radius, not bad, just different."
I mentioned the topic steering rations in a previous reply to this thread. The manual ratios are normally lower (numerically higher) to provide more leverage and compensate for lack of power assist. Which means that the power steering ratio is quicker than the manual ratio, ie, more responsive. So you need to turn the wheel LESS. What you SHOULD have told him is that the car was fine, but the power steering was quicker and not as harsh, so it just feels different from the other car with manual steering.
"Like every other engineering "decision" there are trade off's. If you want easier parking ability, add power assist, and up the ratio. If you want a very precision connection to the wheels with less steering input needed for a given turning radius, do not expect it to park easy."
I am familiar with the concept of tradeoffs. However, this isn't one of them. You are confused; the whole lower/numerically higher;higher/numerically lower thing is tripping you up. Power steering provides better low-speed (parking) maneuvering PLUS more responsive steering, due to having the HIGHER (numerically lower) steering ratio. If you want to fight the steering more, with MORE input needed for a given turning radius, and more parking hassles, go with manual steering, which has the lower (numerically higher) steering ratio. Your informed post isn't very informed. old_S13 is correct. You've got your information backwards.
Last edited:
- Joined
- 10 November 2002
- Messages
- 1,124
Might as well deal with this one also...
"It sounds like you are biased not because if truth, just because of bad experience. If your transmission swap never "swapped" over properly, that isnt a mechanical flaw -- that is a flaw on the installer. The same applies to poor forced induction upgrades that arent configured properly, and any other mechanical conversion or upgrade."
Biased? I am the only person here who has been able to give sound reasoning to back up their logic. Everybody else is back to "I just like the manual steering better!" As for the rest of your statement, I agree. Facts not in dispute. The only point I am trying to make is that unforeseen problems always seem to crop up, so don't invite trouble.
"I swapped my NISSAN S13 from auto to manual, the conversion worked perfectly and I easily dumped some serious weight. I then dumped the factory motor for the Japanese 2.0L turbo motor, and that swap also went smoothly and reliably. And to chime in on the power steering / manual steering discussion, I also dumped my power steering components and really do enjoy the characteristics of driving a car with manual steering."
I am sincerely glad that those mods worked out for you. Really, I am. I congratulate you on superior wrenching skills, and you should be the happiest guy around. Have you considered becoming an Acura mechanic? I also notice you "enjoy the characteristics of driving a car with manual steering". Hmm. That sounds eerily similar to "I just like the manual steering better!"
"Cars with manual steering dont necessarily jump around and dart all over the place, it just requires a slight increased effort in holding the wheel. If you have issues with bump steer, then maybe that is due to tire pressure, alignment, or excessive lowering. There are many characteristics that you have to look at when making statements like you did about the pros and cons."
Who said they did? I only pointed out that you get a LOT of feedback from bad roads with manual steering. And I DON'T have issues with bump steer, or any other steering troubles. Because I have power steering, and because I don't lower the car or otherwise invite trouble. (It's okay, however, if you invite trouble. Everything always works out for you! :smile: ) The car is low enough already. Sshh, don't tell, I don't want the pro-lowering crowd after me also. We both know that they NEVER have any problems with lowering. Their cars never bottom out. They never scrape the front lip. The tires never rub the wheel wells. They never have trouble with revised suspension geometry. Nothing bad ever happens. Note to pro-lowering crowd: Hold your flames please! Also, remember, I am advocating that the original poster drive HIS OWN car in manual mode. So he doesn't have to consider all sorts of characteristics. Just how he likes the steering. Because all the other characteristics will be the same, bein' as it's the same car and all.
"I will say, that I very much do like the fact that the steering feedback is far superior than that of power. If I run over a patch of water and lose traction, I immediately feel it in the steering wheel. With power, you dont feel it until you get feedback from the rear tires. You also feel when the car understeers, its all in the steering wheel."
You sneaky sneak! That is just another stealthy version of "I just like manual steering better!" 'Cuz you say that it is "superior", and when I look it up that is another way of saying "better". The rest of this statement is a little fuzzy but I think you are talking about hydroplaning; maybe it is just me. If you mean that when the car hydroplanes, Wow! You know it right away! then I agree with that. Because the steering wheel jerks HARD in direction of the pool of water, which is usually on the side of the road, which means that the car tries to veer OFF the road. Which is "superior" to veering into oncoming traffic, I suppose. With power steering the steering wheel won't wrench as violently; you would be able to control it better. I don't really get the feedback from the rear tires part; I don't see what that has to do with the steering or steering feel. I think you may simply mean that you feel traction loss faster with manual steering. Okay, but I don't see how. It is the same overall set of components (except ratio), just with or without electronic assist. And the quicker power steering ratio should provide quicker feedback. The electronic booster isn't blocking you or anything. In a skid it would be easier to countersteer with power steering. The manual steering will trip you up before the power steering would, in most if not all traction situations but particularly in a hydroplaning situation or a skid recovery. If there is a situation where manual steering would perform better I can't think of it. Power steering = more control. More control = good thing.
As for the understeer comment, according to my NASCAR analysis, if oversteer is when the back end hits the wall, and understeer is when the front end hits the wall, then I don't think manual or power steering matters either way. It's primarily how well the car is balanced and how the suspension is set up that induces oversteer or understeer; any relationship to the steering is relatively minor, although it is called underSTEER and overSTEER. It's relationship to the driver can be MAJOR. Anybody see that home video of the guy rolling his Subaru WRX? That would be a case of driver-induced oversteer. If it was understeer he never would have made it around the curve. And feeling it isn't so much in the steering as in the tires, or more specifically, when they let go. You're gonna feel the loss of control just fine with either type of steering. Understeer means the car goes straight until you get slowed down enough to make the turn. And it is gonna be a lot easier to turn the wheel with power assist that to try and hoss it around manually with the brakes near locked while you are trying to make that turn. And if the back end comes around (oversteer), it is gonna be easier to countersteer the car back in line with power assist.
Most street cars are set up to understeer, supposedly even the Mustang, which likes to ground loop more than most. Supposedly understeer is more benign and safer for the average driver.
"Either way, people do their own research and make their own decisions -- its the ONLY way to say what is" indeed better or worse, FOR THEM."
Who is suggesting otherwise? Part of doing "their own research" is asking others who may have some experience or insight and hopefully getting an informed opinion, or opinions, then acting on that information.
Just liking something is reason enough for me. I don't have any problem with that. Like liking sticks or targas or black tops or tan interiors. Just say that you like it because you like it! But if you throw out dubious reasons why it is supposedly "better" or present yourself as a friendly expert on the subject you should know what you are talking about.
"It sounds like you are biased not because if truth, just because of bad experience. If your transmission swap never "swapped" over properly, that isnt a mechanical flaw -- that is a flaw on the installer. The same applies to poor forced induction upgrades that arent configured properly, and any other mechanical conversion or upgrade."
Biased? I am the only person here who has been able to give sound reasoning to back up their logic. Everybody else is back to "I just like the manual steering better!" As for the rest of your statement, I agree. Facts not in dispute. The only point I am trying to make is that unforeseen problems always seem to crop up, so don't invite trouble.
"I swapped my NISSAN S13 from auto to manual, the conversion worked perfectly and I easily dumped some serious weight. I then dumped the factory motor for the Japanese 2.0L turbo motor, and that swap also went smoothly and reliably. And to chime in on the power steering / manual steering discussion, I also dumped my power steering components and really do enjoy the characteristics of driving a car with manual steering."
I am sincerely glad that those mods worked out for you. Really, I am. I congratulate you on superior wrenching skills, and you should be the happiest guy around. Have you considered becoming an Acura mechanic? I also notice you "enjoy the characteristics of driving a car with manual steering". Hmm. That sounds eerily similar to "I just like the manual steering better!"
"Cars with manual steering dont necessarily jump around and dart all over the place, it just requires a slight increased effort in holding the wheel. If you have issues with bump steer, then maybe that is due to tire pressure, alignment, or excessive lowering. There are many characteristics that you have to look at when making statements like you did about the pros and cons."
Who said they did? I only pointed out that you get a LOT of feedback from bad roads with manual steering. And I DON'T have issues with bump steer, or any other steering troubles. Because I have power steering, and because I don't lower the car or otherwise invite trouble. (It's okay, however, if you invite trouble. Everything always works out for you! :smile: ) The car is low enough already. Sshh, don't tell, I don't want the pro-lowering crowd after me also. We both know that they NEVER have any problems with lowering. Their cars never bottom out. They never scrape the front lip. The tires never rub the wheel wells. They never have trouble with revised suspension geometry. Nothing bad ever happens. Note to pro-lowering crowd: Hold your flames please! Also, remember, I am advocating that the original poster drive HIS OWN car in manual mode. So he doesn't have to consider all sorts of characteristics. Just how he likes the steering. Because all the other characteristics will be the same, bein' as it's the same car and all.
"I will say, that I very much do like the fact that the steering feedback is far superior than that of power. If I run over a patch of water and lose traction, I immediately feel it in the steering wheel. With power, you dont feel it until you get feedback from the rear tires. You also feel when the car understeers, its all in the steering wheel."
You sneaky sneak! That is just another stealthy version of "I just like manual steering better!" 'Cuz you say that it is "superior", and when I look it up that is another way of saying "better". The rest of this statement is a little fuzzy but I think you are talking about hydroplaning; maybe it is just me. If you mean that when the car hydroplanes, Wow! You know it right away! then I agree with that. Because the steering wheel jerks HARD in direction of the pool of water, which is usually on the side of the road, which means that the car tries to veer OFF the road. Which is "superior" to veering into oncoming traffic, I suppose. With power steering the steering wheel won't wrench as violently; you would be able to control it better. I don't really get the feedback from the rear tires part; I don't see what that has to do with the steering or steering feel. I think you may simply mean that you feel traction loss faster with manual steering. Okay, but I don't see how. It is the same overall set of components (except ratio), just with or without electronic assist. And the quicker power steering ratio should provide quicker feedback. The electronic booster isn't blocking you or anything. In a skid it would be easier to countersteer with power steering. The manual steering will trip you up before the power steering would, in most if not all traction situations but particularly in a hydroplaning situation or a skid recovery. If there is a situation where manual steering would perform better I can't think of it. Power steering = more control. More control = good thing.
As for the understeer comment, according to my NASCAR analysis, if oversteer is when the back end hits the wall, and understeer is when the front end hits the wall, then I don't think manual or power steering matters either way. It's primarily how well the car is balanced and how the suspension is set up that induces oversteer or understeer; any relationship to the steering is relatively minor, although it is called underSTEER and overSTEER. It's relationship to the driver can be MAJOR. Anybody see that home video of the guy rolling his Subaru WRX? That would be a case of driver-induced oversteer. If it was understeer he never would have made it around the curve. And feeling it isn't so much in the steering as in the tires, or more specifically, when they let go. You're gonna feel the loss of control just fine with either type of steering. Understeer means the car goes straight until you get slowed down enough to make the turn. And it is gonna be a lot easier to turn the wheel with power assist that to try and hoss it around manually with the brakes near locked while you are trying to make that turn. And if the back end comes around (oversteer), it is gonna be easier to countersteer the car back in line with power assist.
Most street cars are set up to understeer, supposedly even the Mustang, which likes to ground loop more than most. Supposedly understeer is more benign and safer for the average driver.
"Either way, people do their own research and make their own decisions -- its the ONLY way to say what is" indeed better or worse, FOR THEM."
Who is suggesting otherwise? Part of doing "their own research" is asking others who may have some experience or insight and hopefully getting an informed opinion, or opinions, then acting on that information.
Just liking something is reason enough for me. I don't have any problem with that. Like liking sticks or targas or black tops or tan interiors. Just say that you like it because you like it! But if you throw out dubious reasons why it is supposedly "better" or present yourself as a friendly expert on the subject you should know what you are talking about.
Last edited:
OK,
Maybe it is time to lay out some facts so we can all be on the same page.
In the FAQ it states:
The main reason the EPS-equipped cars feel different is that they simply use different steering racks with different ratios.
'91-'94 5-speed cars have an 18.6:1 ratio
'95+ manual cars have a variable ratio of 18.2:1 to 20.8:1. All but the Zanardi have EPS.
All automatics to date have EPS with an 18.6:1 ratio regardless of year.
The Zanardi has the same variable rack as the '95+ EPS cars and they simply deleted the power assist.
The key point is understanding the variable ratio and how it is applied. The variable ratio is setup in a way that from the center position of the steering wheel the ratio starts at 20.8:1 then changes to 18.2:1 once you move away from center IN THE POWER STEERING SYSTEMS ONLY, 1995+. If you look here in the FAQ you can see a picture of the steering rack gear and that the teeth change spacing as you move away from the center position.
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/eps.htm
So, during the first quarter turn or so, either way of the NSX sterring wheel center position the ratio is 20.8:1 vs. 18.6:1 for the manual steering rack, WHICH IS CONSTANT AT 18.6:1.
When we practically look at steering input and the car turning we are usually talking about the first quarter turn or so of the wheel, since this is turn in initiation and where we feel the difference.
So I do not have it backwards, maybe my wording is a little screwed up, for that I apologize. I was never making a general statemment about power steering, I was talking specifically about the NSX manual transmission cars. I apologize again for not making that clear.
The other fact is the original question asked, was specifically related to a 92 automatic which means that for this specific question, Jett you are correct, it is a true comparison to disable the EPS in a 1991-94 automatic, I stand corrected. Also for my statment about the 2005 manual trans vs. the 1991 manual however, I am informed!!
Another point is that disabling the EPS in this specific car is what you should do if you do not want the PS. Changing the rack would be a complete waste of money.
As KGP always states: The devil is in the details.
Sorry for the confusion.
LarryB
Maybe it is time to lay out some facts so we can all be on the same page.
In the FAQ it states:
The main reason the EPS-equipped cars feel different is that they simply use different steering racks with different ratios.
'91-'94 5-speed cars have an 18.6:1 ratio
'95+ manual cars have a variable ratio of 18.2:1 to 20.8:1. All but the Zanardi have EPS.
All automatics to date have EPS with an 18.6:1 ratio regardless of year.
The Zanardi has the same variable rack as the '95+ EPS cars and they simply deleted the power assist.
The key point is understanding the variable ratio and how it is applied. The variable ratio is setup in a way that from the center position of the steering wheel the ratio starts at 20.8:1 then changes to 18.2:1 once you move away from center IN THE POWER STEERING SYSTEMS ONLY, 1995+. If you look here in the FAQ you can see a picture of the steering rack gear and that the teeth change spacing as you move away from the center position.
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/eps.htm
So, during the first quarter turn or so, either way of the NSX sterring wheel center position the ratio is 20.8:1 vs. 18.6:1 for the manual steering rack, WHICH IS CONSTANT AT 18.6:1.
When we practically look at steering input and the car turning we are usually talking about the first quarter turn or so of the wheel, since this is turn in initiation and where we feel the difference.
So I do not have it backwards, maybe my wording is a little screwed up, for that I apologize. I was never making a general statemment about power steering, I was talking specifically about the NSX manual transmission cars. I apologize again for not making that clear.
The other fact is the original question asked, was specifically related to a 92 automatic which means that for this specific question, Jett you are correct, it is a true comparison to disable the EPS in a 1991-94 automatic, I stand corrected. Also for my statment about the 2005 manual trans vs. the 1991 manual however, I am informed
!!Another point is that disabling the EPS in this specific car is what you should do if you do not want the PS. Changing the rack would be a complete waste of money.
As KGP always states: The devil is in the details.
Sorry for the confusion.
LarryB
Last edited:
- Joined
- 4 October 2002
- Messages
- 569
For folks with Power steering, Why not tap in a resistor or a potentiometer in the circuit which feeds the current to the motor. Use a Potentiometer so you can dial in your desired assist.
Somehow, you may need to simulate the real (expected signal) back to the Steering ECU so you don't trip the idiot light and turn off the system
Somehow, you may need to simulate the real (expected signal) back to the Steering ECU so you don't trip the idiot light and turn off the system
This was meant as a joke, right? Besides that problem with the big Amperes which lead to a lot of heat in the resistor/potentiometer, this may alter your steering into "unpredictable" mode.Silver F16 said:
- Joined
- 4 October 2002
- Messages
- 569
The other option is to put the resistor or Potentiometer on one of the input circuit wires where it is low current. By varing the input the the steering ECU, you can fool the ECU to provide less assist.
One will need to study the wire diagram and the strategy in the service manual to figure it out. Should be do able.
One will need to study the wire diagram and the strategy in the service manual to figure it out. Should be do able.
