Experiences with Prothane bushing kit?

[Ap2GT3]

I'm going to be looking into replacing my bilstein + H&R set up with KW v3 in the near future. While I'm at it I wanted to check and see if there were any bushings available and came across Prothane. https://www.prothanesuspensionparts.com/prothane-packagedeal017

I have seen the thread that discusses "urethane bushings in development" but haven't found anybody with feedback on them after install for a street car.

My car has 135k miles now - and I'm wondering if the noise and vibration is livable for a weekend only, few track days a yr car like mine.

Does anybody have experience or feedback on prothane or any other items i should consider "while I'm there" installing the suspension?

 

[Solidsneak]

I'm going to be looking into replacing my bilstein + H&R set up with KW v3 in the near future. While I'm at it I wanted to check and see if there were any bushings available and came across Prothane. https://www.prothanesuspensionparts.com/prothane-packagedeal017

I have seen the thread that discusses "urethane bushings in development" but haven't found anybody with feedback on them after install for a street car.

My car has 135k miles now - and I'm wondering if the noise and vibration is livable for a weekend only, few track days a yr car like mine.

Does anybody have experience or feedback on prothane or any other items i should consider "while I'm there" installing the suspension?

I am actually looking this same kit myself and while I can't comment on the NSX directly I can say I have run Poly bushes on my AP1 S2000 and never had any issues with noise, I am also running full spherical's on my both my R32 GTR as well as my S2000 CR that I daily and haven't noticed any undo or increased noise and in my case they helped get rid of the noise from the failed stock rubber bushings.

Generally peoples gripe with Poly is that they squeak and cause whats called "stiction" the first issue(s) can be from a number a factors were they installed the right way, are your stock control arms bores still with in spec, did you grease them with the proper grease as well maintain them with new grease. The second is "stiction" yes there is an amount of "stiction" with Poly but its far less than the torsional force created by OEM rubber bushings that tend to act as additional springs which can actually make a car artificially hard and stiff felling. Rubber will break down and begin to bind over time both from the torsional forces as well as environmental conditions its exposed to. For me as I said, I have never had an issue with them and I much prefer the poly or spherical route vs anything rubber from the OEM unless I'm wanting to isolate. Rubber is used in order to satisfy a general public's lack of tolerance or understanding for NVH and other maybe undesirable characteristics by using a non rubber bushing not to mention cost.

Is there a perfect solution no... well maybe that being Derlin but its cost to manufacture is just not there yet to compete with the others I mentioned. So if your looking to do this just know there "Maybe" some increased maintenance and NVH but generally its not anywhere as bad vs blown OEM bushings.

 

[Soundeffects]

I have the prothane bushings installed with no ill noise effects, apparently the install went smooth from what I remember the mechanic saying. I have just about every bushing, rebuilt ball joint, stronger tie rods, etc.. my car drives car with no bad noise or side effects. I’d encourage you to replace any piece you can on a 25 year old car. Most of them I removed were pretty good but some of them were dried out and needed to be replaced.

 

[Ap2GT3]

Thanks for the feedback. [MENTION=34749]Solidsneak[/MENTION] - very informative/educational. I guess many have had poor experiences and those are the ones that are more prone to posting about them. It's one of those mods that would be difficult to go back to OEM as i can't find the OEM rubber kit without buying the arms...so I'm being cautious. Based on your experience it looks like the worst case would be some maintenance - am i correct in assuming that would include remove and re-greasing each bushing?
[MENTION=25813]Soundeffects[/MENTION] - thanks for sharing. Do you recall how long it took for the shop to install?

I'm also looking at the various items from Science of Speed - the non compliance pivot kit and the non compliance toe links.

 

[Solidsneak]

[MENTION=32318]Ap2GT3[/MENTION] Yes, you're correct its always the problem installs that make the most noise which most of that is from not doing it right the first time. The reason they squeak is that they are binding and that typically is initial installation error...i.e. not using Aluminum Anti Seize or a Marine Grease with graphite or even a botched install.

Once a year may be a bit much but really its going to depend on usage, I would check mine maybe every two years on my AP1 and this was a car that driven as a semi daily and saw a few auto-crosses and they never were dry. The best or biggest thing is using the correct grease don't use the included silicon based lubricant it breaks down to quickly and has no other lubricating agents left behind once it has broken down. Instead use Permatex Aluminum Anti seize or if you can find it Marine grease(with graphite) and apply it liberally during initial installation. Really any high quality graphite infused water proof grease but the Al based Anti seize has worked the best for me since it has graphite, copper, and aluminum in it.

For me I would for sure go with a stiff and lowest deflection bushing for the toe links. The compliance maybe do Poly...but again this will depend on your tolerance level and use of the car. Do you want a really direct and dynamic car or are you looking to freshen up an old platform to better than stock but not "race car".

 

[Soundeffects]

Thanks for the feedback. @Solidsneak - very informative/educational. I guess many have had poor experiences and those are the ones that are more prone to posting about them. It's one of those mods that would be difficult to go back to OEM as i can't find the OEM rubber kit without buying the arms...so I'm being cautious. Based on your experience it looks like the worst case would be some maintenance - am i correct in assuming that would include remove and re-greasing each bushing?
@Soundeffects - thanks for sharing. Do you recall how long it took for the shop to install?

I'm also looking at the various items from Science of Speed - the non compliance pivot kit and the non compliance toe links.

I have the non compliance pivot kit, the non compliance toe links all great additions. I installed so many different bushings, actually every bushing and rebuild control arm under the car. Including front subframe centering spacers, steering rack bushings, new steering rack, new upper and lower ball joints, etc.. The math on my car is kinda astronomical in terms of time, I'm not a good example for that question lol. I definitely would ask yourself how long you plan on keeping it, the parts are relatively reasonable, the prothane is super cheap actually. The labor will be intensive but its definitely something I think any new buyer would pay for easily considering its just a matter of time before it needs to be replaced due to age.

 

[Ap2GT3]

Great feed back again - thank you both for this.

I am looking to freshen up an old car - I have another vehicle I use on the track but the NSX may get out there once per year. My goal is really to make the drive more engaging and modernize the old suspension a little - as it's a weekend canyon car. I forgot to add, I also already purchased the steering rack bushings - that will be part of this refresh project.

I think the best thing to do is research shops in the Bay Area that are comfortable/capable/competent as that is the most critical factor based on what you guys are saying. Sounds like all the suspension mods I am thinking about will accomplish my goal based on your feedback. Now to wait and hope for a 4th of July sale for the KW V3's...

thanks again for the help!

 

[Honcho]

I appreciate the feedback here as well. I've got all of my suspension pieces out of the car, so now would be a good time to replace with Prothane, but I'm on the fence due to NVH and grease maintenance concerns. I don't want to be removing both subframes every year to re-grease! I'm really grateful for the tip about the Aluninum/Marine grease, as I would have just gooped it up with the supplied silcone!

 

[Mac Attack]

I've thought about the Prothane kit too and am curious on what you find out.

I haven't been able to inspect my front OEM 27 YO bushings with about 130k miles on them yet, but I have a feeling I tore one or two after I bedded in my new brakes recently. It's a lot of stress to subject the old original bushings to after ~25 braking cycles at 90% threshold from 65 MPH to 10 MPH.

Looking at the Prothane installation, you can try to press out your old ones or burn them out.

 

[Honcho]

I've thought about the Prothane kit too and am curious on what you find out.

I haven't been able to inspect my front OEM 27 YO bushings with about 130k miles on them yet, but I have a feeling I tore one or two after I bedded in my new brakes recently. It's a lot of stress to subject the old original bushings to after ~25 braking cycles at 90% threshold from 65 MPH to 10 MPH.

Looking at the Prothane installation, you can try to press out your old ones or burn them out.

Using a shop press will deform the control arms, so you need one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/OTC-7068-Control-Bushing-Service/dp/B0002SRHJ2

Given the sad state of the rubber bushings I've seen come out of my car already, I'm seriously considering doing this...

 

[Honcho]

Did a little more research on this. It is probably easiest to burn them out, but it is unclear if the Prothane kit requires the old metal sleeves to be removed or not. Most aftermarket kits don't require that, and I can't find anything on the Prothane requiring it either. If not required, this becomes a much easier install. Also, the below appears to contradict the idea of using a lithium-based marine grease:

https://www.suspension.com/blog/the-best-grease-for-polyurethane-bushings/

 

[Re<<1]

Did a little more research on this. It is probably easiest to burn them out, but it is unclear if the Prothane kit requires the old metal sleeves to be removed or not. Most aftermarket kits don't require that, and I can't find anything on the Prothane requiring it either. If not required, this becomes a much easier install. Also, the below appears to contradict the idea of using a lithium-based marine grease:

https://www.suspension.com/blog/the-best-grease-for-polyurethane-bushings/

In the past when replacing LCA bushings on my civic I had to use a torch and air-chisel to remove the old metal sleeves. Energy Suspension also supplies the lubricant with their polyurethane bushing kits. It is the tacky silicone based lubricant. I should have some extra floating around my garage. I can send you some if you like.

 

[El-Cojonico]

Yes you do have to get the metal sleeves out. I'm doing the complete front to back Prothane kit now that me steering rack is getting rebuilt. The fronts are a bear unless you have a lift...but doable. I did it. Will do the rear after my steering rack gets back, which should be another week or so. Very disappointed in the sway bar bushing. Its too wide.

 

[Honcho]

Yes you do have to get the metal sleeves out. I'm doing the complete front to back Prothane kit now that me steering rack is getting rebuilt. The fronts are a bear unless you have a lift...but doable. I did it. Will do the rear after my steering rack gets back, which should be another week or so. Very disappointed in the sway bar bushing. Its too wide.

How are you getting the sleeves out? Press?

 

[El-Cojonico]

Rented a hand held bushing remover. Oddly most of the sleeves came out. Only one had to be chiseled.

 

[Honcho]

Rented a hand held bushing remover. Oddly most of the sleeves came out. Only one had to be chiseled.

Any chance you can link to or describe the tool? The only ones I can find are for ball joint removal. I've looked at a few of my bushings and they are dried and torn. I may just do the Prothane after all.

 

[MotorMouth93]

I wouldn't try to burn bushings out of aluminum arms, AL starts to anneal around 570F and you could easily surpass that with the continuous heat involved with burning bushings out.

 

[Honcho]

I wouldn't try to burn bushings out of aluminum arms, AL starts to anneal around 570F and you could easily surpass that with the continuous heat involved with burning bushings out.

Yeah, I'm going to press them out. Just double checking with Prothane that I do not need to preserve the metal sleeves.

 

[Honcho]

[MENTION=32318]Ap2GT3[/MENTION] Yes, you're correct its always the problem installs that make the most noise which most of that is from not doing it right the first time. The reason they squeak is that they are binding and that typically is initial installation error...i.e. not using Aluminum Anti Seize or a Marine Grease with graphite or even a botched install.

Once a year may be a bit much but really its going to depend on usage, I would check mine maybe every two years on my AP1 and this was a car that driven as a semi daily and saw a few auto-crosses and they never were dry. The best or biggest thing is using the correct grease don't use the included silicon based lubricant it breaks down to quickly and has no other lubricating agents left behind once it has broken down. Instead use Permatex Aluminum Anti seize or if you can find it Marine grease(with graphite) and apply it liberally during initial installation. Really any high quality graphite infused water proof grease but the Al based Anti seize has worked the best for me since it has graphite, copper, and aluminum in it.

For me I would for sure go with a stiff and lowest deflection bushing for the toe links. The compliance maybe do Poly...but again this will depend on your tolerance level and use of the car. Do you want a really direct and dynamic car or are you looking to freshen up an old platform to better than stock but not "race car".

Any compatibility issues with the petroleum carrier grease in the anti-seize and the poly? I was thinking of using a PTFE-impregnated silicone grease instead of the permatex for this reason. But if no issues, I also agree that it's better to have graphite, copper and aluminum in there to help with stiction once the carrier grease goes away.

 

[Solidsneak]

Any compatibility issues with the petroleum carrier grease in the anti-seize and the poly? I was thinking of using a PTFE-impregnated silicone grease instead of the permatex for this reason. But if no issues, I also agree that it's better to have graphite, copper and aluminum in there to help with stiction once the carrier grease goes away.

Never noticed any issue and most automotive poly bushes are formulated for resistance to petroleum given their intended use environment.

 

[RYU]

Bumping this back up. How are you guys going with the install process and long term ownership? I have a few concerns and would love a discussion.

* burning aluminum is probably a bad idea. I'm remember when I had a set of SSR wheels powercoated. They warped like you wouldn't believe.
* the permatex anti-size (alum, graphite, or copper infused stuff) is probably not a good idea? That stuff has bits of hard material mixed into it and typically best for metal to metal contact lubricity. Am I thinking of the same stuff here? If used on rubber to metal it's slightly a bit abrasive which is why it doesn't cause much stiction but also wears out the rubbers prematurely. I have no idea about the marine stuff.
* anyone have any additional installation pointers? I have a generic bushing & balljoint kit that ought to work but seeing some of you comment that "they just slide out" makes me more comfortable. [MENTION=18194]Honcho[/MENTION] did you get around to this yet?
* anyone have any long term feedback? I'm also concerned about the noise but using the right grease seems to have helped my Energy Suspension Polyurethane sway bar mounts. I was thinking of using the same but unfortunately no zerk fittings on the OEM suspension bits so looking at more semi-permanent stuff.
* Are there any bushings missing? Looking at the picture of parts.. that seems too little! How about the front compliance pivot joint? I'd be shocked if a replacement bushing was included for that.. but is there?

TIA

 

[Honcho]

[MENTION=20915]RYU[/MENTION] I'll be jumping into this in about 2 weeks. I have a shop press, though, which should make it easier. Shad's advice was to slightly warm (less than 200F) the aluminum around the bushing before pressing it out.

I'm going with the Permatex aluminum anti-seize, per [MENTION=34749]Solidsneak[/MENTION]. I like the idea of metal friction inhibitors staying put after the carrier grease evaporates. The squeaks come from the poly twisting inside the aluminum sleeve and the metal lubricant flakes should keep the noise to a minimum. I doubt there will be enough abrasion to compromise the bushing. If anything, some of the particles might embed themselves in the poly surface. I'm just too concerned about the Prothane grease breaking down too quickly and getting squeaks 6 months after install.

*Edit* Of course I might just cave and use the included bushing lube. Just read an article where they tested everything for washout (including marine grease) and the stock stuff won by far....

 

[RYU]

[MENTION=18194]Honcho[/MENTION]... if you can, try to find the old Permatex Anti-Seize stuff. The non-aluminum version. I've been searching for it for years. It's lubricity is better than the alum stuff. FWIW, it's probably what i'd use in this situation. I have plenty of experience with the alum Anti-sieze stuff in similar rubber to metal friction surfaces. The old stuff I really like much better. Both out to work fine though.

 

[Honcho]

[MENTION=18194]Honcho[/MENTION]... if you can, try to find the old Permatex Anti-Seize stuff. The non-aluminum version. I've been searching for it for years. It's lubricity is better than the alum stuff. FWIW, it's probably what i'd use in this situation. I have plenty of experience with the alum Anti-sieze stuff in similar rubber to metal friction surfaces. The old stuff I really like much better. Both out to work fine though.

I got this stuff. It's the "non-aluminum" version (apparently there is a version that specifically says aluminum). But...it still has aluminum LOL.

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80078-Anti-Seize-Lubricant-Bottle/dp/B000FW7VGE/ref=asc_df_B000FW7VGE/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312181776237&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15815161920304131203&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9028744&hvtargid=pla-492337354522&psc=1

 

[RYU]

I got this stuff. It's the "non-aluminum" version (apparently there is a version that specifically says aluminum). But...it still has aluminum LOL.

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-800...ocphy=9028744&hvtargid=pla-492337354522&psc=1

That's the stuff I've had great luck with. I trird to order it too (can't recall from where) but despite it showing a pic of the old stuff, I received the Alum version!