Ferrari 360 outsells NSX 10:1?

[nsxman]

In another thread, CChung comments that the Ferrari 360 is outselling the NSX 10:1, and at twice the price.

These are stunning statistics.

NSX sales volume is so low, I wonder where it falls in terms of other marqued mass-produced" automobiles. Does anyone have any data?

*** nsxman is in a state of disbelief... was aware that NSX sales had been on a downward slope for years, but was ignorant that it had gotten this bad... Honda may sell more than 100 NSX's in 2001, however, that must be of little comfort. ***

We have discussed this issue ad nauseum, nevertheless, it may take more than a 400HP engine to save the NSX from a corporate execution. Is there any market research in the public domain that would support higher NSX sales based on a redesign?

I would certainly like to hear something definite from Honda on the new NSX. Based on 2000 and projected 2001 sales volume, it appears that re-tooling for a new NSX -- assuming Honda wants to keep it alive -- mandates a car that is significantly less expensive. This, I suspect, spells the end of those beautiful alloy wishbones... among other things.

 

[Number9]

Just a minor correction, the 360s are MORE THAN twice the price of an NSX (for a new one with current delivery - marked up due to excess demand)). Well, maybe the NASDAQ meltdown has fixed that, but this was the case when I looked earlier this year...

--twc

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Remember that the buyer base is different. I think it is safe to assume that a majority of Ferrari 360 buyers are not potential NSX buyers. However, I think a larger percent of potential NSX buyers are potential 360 buyers.

-- Chris

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www.ScienceofSpeed.com - Click for more info
www.NSXClassifieds.com - The internet's only exclusive NSX Classified site!

 

[nsxman]

The buyer base is exactly what I am talking about. It is obvious from the sales numbers that the potential buyer bases of Ferrari and Honda are, for all intents, mutually exclusive.

This is not the issue. The question I have is about the nonsense of a rumored NSX re-design.

The NSX will not survive. The sales numbers indicate that it is a dismal failure. 2001, 2002, 2003, pick your year for the end of the line.

 

[CChung]

NSXMAN,
When I put that figure of the Ferrari 360 outselling the NSX 10 to 1, I didn't mean to imply the NSX will be extinct in a couple of years. From what I've heard from following this forum and other websites the NSX is alive and well and will continue to be produced no matter how many units Honda sells. It's their technological showcase and Honda can't afford to give the NSX up. Maybe the Ferrari sells so many because it's a newer model. Remember when the NSX first came out they sold around 3000 cars also. I also agree that buyers of Ferraris probably considered buying a NSX only momentarily. I guess its the prancing horse's cachet and heritage which Honda can only try to work up to. I, for one, am very happy with my NSX because it can do probably 90-95% of what the Ferrari can do at half the price. It might not have the status but,as I read somewhere, I rather impress myself than my friends or anyone else for that matter.

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'00 NSX-T, silverstone/blk, #252

 

[nsxman]

CCHung: Thanks for your insight.

At what price is the NSX a technological showcase? We know the factory is (was) capable of turning out more than 5,000 vehicles a year... now that number is down to 500, more or less, worldwide.

We also know that promotion of the NSX has fallen off as well.

In most companies, a "loss leader" is just that, a product that showcases the firm's technology or innovation. It is not meant to be a permanent thing... It is a mechanism to acquire market share. Is the NSX Honda's loss leader? It certainly appears so. However, by failing to promote the vehicle, Honda's loses the benefit that they are trying to get by making the NSX a loss leader in the first place. Crazy.

What I see here is the reason that Japan, Inc., is a mess. They can not confront the systemic problems they have in banking, real estate, and... automobiles.

In business school, a case study of Acura's NSX would conclude that it was a failed execution of a promising idea.

I wonder if the limitations that the NSX revealed in its early years of racing contributed to Honda's loss of interest in the vehicle?

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

It makes one wonder. With Honda's lack of enthusiasm for the NSX, what kind of support does development for the next gen currently have, and what kind of support will it have going forward.

My guess is that the next generation NSX will not be anything superlative. This is Honda's way. They don't make products that blow off the doors performance-wise, but are always impressive on the standpoint of reliability and driveability.

-- C



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www.ScienceofSpeed.com - Click for more info
www.NSXClassifieds.com - The internet's only exclusive NSX Classified site!

 

[nsxtasy]

Can someone provide actual sales figures for the 360 in the United States last year, or are we just speculating here? If we're just guessing, I really doubt that they sold 3,000 360 Modenas in the U.S....

 

[CChung]

I believe they sold 2800 -3000 Modenas each year since it was introduced WORLDWIDE. Ferrari produces about 3500 cars total in one year and I remember reading about 80% are Modenas. There is a two year wait for these cars so I assume all that are produced are already sold. So maybe its not quite 10:1, depending on how many NSXs are sold worldwide. Sorry for the miscalculation.

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'00 NSX-T, silverstone/blk, #252

 

[G-man]

Hi gang. Just in case you all thought I was dead... I thought I would chime in here.

I happen to have in my hot little hand the Factory Ferrari Video Tape that claims that it builds 80 cars a week of the 360 Modena. Keep in mind that there is now also a convertible version that is in high demand. There is also a Ferrari Challenge Racing Series that requires a steady supply of 360s.

Ok, with that said, I can confirm that there is a waiting list. If you want to pay as much as $25K over list, you can get it in 6 Mo. If you can wait, it will ne 9-12 mo. for sure. The Spyder is indeed sold out for 2 years. And who can blame them... Hell, I even have $1,000 down holding a spot for my own Red/Black 360 Modena Spyder.

As far as the fate of the NSX, it is anyone's guess. But you don't have to be a Harvard Business School Grad to see that this entire 10 year effort was a disaster for Acura and Honda. Lots of money lost and not a lot of racing victories to show for it with the NSX. After fighting it out on the track with my 2000 NSX vs. 2001 360 Modena I can see why NSX owners often become Ferrari owners but Ferrari Owners almost never become NSX owners. I love my NSX, but I can tell you one thing... it is not a Ferrari.

Before you guys flame me... just keep in mind the lack of respect the NSX gets. Remember all the times you are mistaken for a Corvette C5 by the trailer trash crowd. Remember the howl of the engine at 185 mph... oh, that is right the NSX gives out at 168... I guess that must have been in the Ferrari!

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Gordon G. Miller, III
2000 NSX-T #51 Yellow/Black

 

[nsxtasy]

I can see why NSX owners often become Ferrari owners but Ferrari Owners almost never become NSX owners.

Not true. I know quite a few Ferrari owners who became NSX owners. Some still kept the Ferrari and others got rid of it.

I love my NSX, but I can tell you one thing... it is not a Ferrari.

Thank goodness.

 

[CChung]

Thanks G-Man for the statistic. I guess Ferrari builds a little bit more 360s than what I heard. So worldwide maybe the Ferrari does outsell the NSX pretty close 10:1. What have you heard about the reliability of the Modena? Is it better than the 355 or other Ferraris? I actually looked into getting a 360 about a year ago but I just couldn't see myself putting that much money into a car. I would be afraid to drive it and it would definitely have been a garage queen. I'm extremely happy with my '00 NSX and glad I got a late model over my '94 NSX.

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'00 NSX-T, silverstone/blk, #252

 

[nsxman]

No, one doesn't need an HBS degree to figure how badly Honda botched NSX marketing. But it helps. HBS '80.

 

[nsxtasy]

I happen to have in my hot little hand the Factory Ferrari Video Tape that claims that it builds 80 cars a week of the 360 Modena. Keep in mind that there is now also a convertible version that is in high demand. There is also a Ferrari Challenge Racing Series that requires a steady supply of 360s.

That is worldwide.

According to one of my local Ferrari dealers, approximately 700 of the various flavors of the 360 Modena are sold in the United States per year. So it's not 10:1 - more like 2:1 or 3:1.

If you can wait, it will ne 9-12 mo. for sure.

He said their waiting list is 3-4 YEARS. Which doesn't exactly sound to me like splendid marketing, either.

 

[Lud]

This has nothing to do with NSX, Ferrari, or etc. but in general, "waiting lists" don't really mean what they sound like. People remotely interested put down deposits on any hot car before it is available. Speculators do as well, only intending to buy them if market value is still over what they would have to pay when their number comes up on the list.

Once the initial rush is over, those "x month/year" waiting lists suddenly vanish.

Anyone who has ever been on such a list knows that once the car has been out for a while, they shoot up to the top of the list way faster than the dealer is selling that car because most people on the list drop out.

 

[G-man]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
According to one of my local Ferrari dealers, approximately 700 of the various flavors of the 360 Modena are sold in the United States per year. So it's not 10:1 - more like 2:1 or 3:1.

Well, I am not sure which I would believe, a Ferrari dealer that may sell 5 a year who wants to inflate demand and thus the price for a car, or the video tape I have that has the (C) Copyright 2001, FERRARI on it.

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Gordon G. Miller, III
2000 NSX-T #51 Yellow/Black

 

[nsxtasy]

Well, I am not sure which I would believe, a Ferrari dealer that may sell 5 a year who wants to inflate demand and thus the price for a car, or the video tape I have that has the (C) Copyright 2001, FERRARI on it.

There are exactly 29 Ferrari dealers in the United States. If you think that they each sell 5 cars a year, then there's no way that they are selling more than 700 of the 360 Modena nationwide. Which means that now you're contradicting YOURSELF...

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 25 April 2001).]

 

[Edo]

Ok, I've had it. G-Man and Nsxtasy, thats 3 separate topic's that you are both either A)beating each other up on, or b)just about to beat each other up on.
Just cool it. Take it easy. Ignore each other's posts or something, but I am getting sick of seeing this verbal fencing go from post to post. It is very unbecoming of ANY sort of exotic car owner!
If you guys have a problem, make it private.

 

[G-man]

Edo, I couldn't agree more. I don't know what is up with this. I take a few months off and when I come back Ken can't go 15 minutes without something negative to say about my posts. I am more than ready to get past all this. I have more important things to do... Like get back to driving my Porsche C4S.

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Gordon G. Miller, III
2000 NSX-T #51 Yellow/Black

 

[nsxtasy]

I don't know what's up either, Edo. I'm baffled. People here have been getting along so well. G-man is off the forums for months, and comes back posting all kinds of false information so that he can sell his NSX. Several of us - including me, but I'm not the only one - point out how what he's saying is just flat out wrong and he says I'M the one with the problem? Sheesh...

These forums work well as long as people are here to share information - TRUE information - and to have a good time. If your favorite car is the Xmobile (pick any brand), that's fine - go hang out on the Xmobile bulletin boards. Don't come here just to tell us how you like your Xmobile better than the NSX and attack anyone who disagrees with all kinds of false statements. And don't use phony numbers to mislead people. Is that unreasonable?

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 25 April 2001).]

 

[aaron]

G-Man, well said, I agree with your opinions on the 360 vs. NSX issue as well as with your opinions about NSXSTACY's belligerence.

 

[nsxtasy]

G-Man, well said, I agree with your opinions on the 360 vs. NSX issue as well as with your opinions about NSXSTACY's belligerence.

I can see from your avatar as well as from http://www.nsxprime.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001737.html that you're not exactly an unbiased observer.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 30 April 2001).]

 

[nsxtasy]

I was just trying to present the facts.

Fact:

"Ferrari sold 4,000 cars in 2000, 1,100 of which went to U.S. buyers."

Source:

Ferrari North America Chief Executive Stuart Robinson, as reported by Forbes; see http://biz.yahoo.com/fo/010213/0213maserati.html

Fact:

Those figures include the 456 and 550 models as well as their best seller by far, the 360.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 30 April 2001).]

 

[hejo]

Hey I'll be in Italy presenting to the CEOs of all the FIAT companies in a couple of weeks. If I have the chance I'll ask the question.

[This message has been edited by hejo (edited 30 April 2001).]

 

[jon69]

imho there are a lot of guys on this forum who behave like bickering old ladies, makes me sick.

about the sales figures, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a new F360 with all it's heritage, image, and performance outsells a ten year old Japanese wanna be exotic. I'm not knocking the NSX, in fact I picked it over a F355 but it's pretty much simple.

Also I'm not in a position to quote exact numbers but I'm pretty sure Ferrari builds 3500 cars of which the majority is the F360 and in addition to that America is by far the biggest market. Now if Honda only sells 100 NSX's in America then I'm sure the F360 far outsells the NSX, maybe even more than 10:1.

I don't think anybody will argue that the NSX has been a sales failure, but it may be something that Honda needs to have to show off their technology and know how. Mind you the past few years this doesn't make sense as the car is old tech almost and doesn't really belong with a 290hp V-6 in the supercar ranks. But what we should take into consideration is what the car means to Honda on a global front and more specifically in Japan. What would Honda have in JGTC if it weren't for the NSX, maybe a S2000, think not. I'm sure Honda the manufacturer needs to save face at least in it's own back yard, Japan. By the way these are just my opinions and I'd appreciate no flames, thanks.