Risk of running into a 'my month was worse than yours' threadjack. Reminds me of this pre - Monty Python version of the 4 Yorkshiremen .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAdlkunflRs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAdlkunflRs
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Frustrating month
- Thread starter mskrotzki
- Start date
Time to update this tale: I’m back on the road again – well sort of – DMV lost my registration renewal and my plates are 7 months out of date. Denver cops really don’t give a damn about registrations during COVID19 so I’m driving it anyway.
In short it got REALLY expensive, but I essentially have a new engine and more. Poking it out to 3.2 liters and the 6-speed rapidly went down the tubes as, due to a screw up in communication, the block work got done without the message to put in the bigger sleeves. At $2900 to re-do it – the decision was easy. Six-Speed transmissions are for all intents and purposes unavailable in less than 6-months.
But I do have new: SOS low-compression set (pistons, rings, locks and pins
MLS Head gaskets
ARP head stud set
Timesert Thread Repair kit (It did wildly overheat)
Complete head and block seals, bearings and timing belt (old one had 156 miles on it)
Surfaced heads and competition valve job
Surfaced Block, machine bore & cylinder sleeves honed
Bushed Rods for new floating pin pistons
LMA kit
Timing belt covers – all three of them
H[SUB]2[/SUB]O pump (old one had 156 miles on it!)
Knock sensor and wires
Radiator fan control
Crank sensor assembly
Oil Pump
SOS Sport 275 clutch and flywheel (while we’re in there…..)
All hoses, OBX reinforced silicone
Both Transmission axle shaft seals
ATI Super Sport Compact Harmonic Balancer
I’m still in the break-in stage, but I’m getting familiar with using TunerPro ECU software with the WB O[SUB]2[/SUB] sensor. I haven’t changed anything as I haven’t laid down any fuel maps yet. No high RPM and certainly no VTEC until I get at least 3000 miles on it – and there is snow on the ground.
There are at least 3 of us street tuning the RDX injectors from Texas, Wisconsin and now Colorado. We should be joined shortly by [MENTION=18194]Honcho[/MENTION]. We’ll see what we can come up with.
In short it got REALLY expensive, but I essentially have a new engine and more. Poking it out to 3.2 liters and the 6-speed rapidly went down the tubes as, due to a screw up in communication, the block work got done without the message to put in the bigger sleeves. At $2900 to re-do it – the decision was easy. Six-Speed transmissions are for all intents and purposes unavailable in less than 6-months.
But I do have new: SOS low-compression set (pistons, rings, locks and pins
MLS Head gaskets
ARP head stud set
Timesert Thread Repair kit (It did wildly overheat)
Complete head and block seals, bearings and timing belt (old one had 156 miles on it)
Surfaced heads and competition valve job
Surfaced Block, machine bore & cylinder sleeves honed
Bushed Rods for new floating pin pistons
LMA kit
Timing belt covers – all three of them
H[SUB]2[/SUB]O pump (old one had 156 miles on it!)
Knock sensor and wires
Radiator fan control
Crank sensor assembly
Oil Pump
SOS Sport 275 clutch and flywheel (while we’re in there…..)
All hoses, OBX reinforced silicone
Both Transmission axle shaft seals
ATI Super Sport Compact Harmonic Balancer
I’m still in the break-in stage, but I’m getting familiar with using TunerPro ECU software with the WB O[SUB]2[/SUB] sensor. I haven’t changed anything as I haven’t laid down any fuel maps yet. No high RPM and certainly no VTEC until I get at least 3000 miles on it – and there is snow on the ground.
There are at least 3 of us street tuning the RDX injectors from Texas, Wisconsin and now Colorado. We should be joined shortly by [MENTION=18194]Honcho[/MENTION]. We’ll see what we can come up with.
Nice. I’m sure it is more money than you wanted to spend, but at least it got done. Many, many miles of carefree driving ahead!
Just getting caught up again... What's the story with the 6spd? Was that something you had to forego due to the engine build?
Congratulations on getting the car back on the road again. It sounded like an uphill battle.
One way to look at it is that you basically have a brand new drive train and the car should last another 100k-200k....just make sure to check the radiator and thermostat more often.
Enjoy the "new" car and driving like an outlaw without current tags/registrations.
Wishing you many happy miles of driving pleasures.
One way to look at it is that you basically have a brand new drive train and the car should last another 100k-200k....just make sure to check the radiator and thermostat more often.
Enjoy the "new" car and driving like an outlaw without current tags/registrations.
Wishing you many happy miles of driving pleasures.
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The insurance structure is significantly different in the US than in most Canadian provinces. That said, where I live it is the vehicle that is insured, not the driver and an unregistered car becomes an uninsured car (even with 3rd party comprehensive insurance on the car). In the event of a traffic accident, regardless of whether it is a single or multiple vehicle event the car is not covered for damage. You might want to make sure that your insurance policy does not have some little provision hidden away that precludes coverage if the vehicle is not registered and is involved in an accident.
Low compression pistons? Are you planning on adding boost?
I think he means the standard compression pistons.
I'm sure they are the standard SOS pistons -- I just copied down the list from the SOS engine refresh description. Since both the heads AND block warped, there is going to be a compression increase, so it will probably all even out in the end.
A six-speed would take about 6 months to get assembled in Japan and shipped over here. I checked a bunch of places in the US and there is nothing. Not even SOS has a line on one.
Being on a break-in routine, 5000 RPM max, I hardly drive it like I stole it, registered or not.
I actually have a printed receipt from DMV for an over the phone paid renewal registration. The only thing I don't have is the license plate stickers. Anyone running my plate would find me only to fast, I'm sure. Colorado also insures a vehicle, not a driver, and if anything happened it would be a giant pain, but I'm well lawyered up with my wife, sister-in-law, daughter, and son-in-law all being lawyers (as an engineer, am I the only one who does real work?
). {Flame suit applied}
Here is a tidbit from the Denver DMV website:
On a better note, I am having a great time digging deep into the ECU. Latest investigation is determining how which of the 5 fuel maps are applied at any given time. i am amazed at the work Matt and John have done reverse engineering the ECU code. I understand Matt spent over 7 years doing it. There is nothing straight-forward about understanding it. Today's find was discovering that open loop opeation is enabled when final injector pulse width exceeds a table value that is a function of RPM and Coolant temperature. I am searching for more hidden gems like this one. There have to be more that are a function of load and throttle position, but nothing that jumps out at you to say "look at me."
Stay healthy everyone
A six-speed would take about 6 months to get assembled in Japan and shipped over here. I checked a bunch of places in the US and there is nothing. Not even SOS has a line on one.
Being on a break-in routine, 5000 RPM max, I hardly drive it like I stole it, registered or not.
I actually have a printed receipt from DMV for an over the phone paid renewal registration. The only thing I don't have is the license plate stickers. Anyone running my plate would find me only to fast, I'm sure. Colorado also insures a vehicle, not a driver, and if anything happened it would be a giant pain, but I'm well lawyered up with my wife, sister-in-law, daughter, and son-in-law all being lawyers (as an engineer, am I the only one who does real work?
Here is a tidbit from the Denver DMV website:
- Can I be ticketed for having expired tags?
- Yes. You can be ticketed for having expired tags. All residents have a 30-day grace period to renew their tags once they expire. After that time, you can be ticketed. If you recently renewed your tags online or by mail but have not yet received your tags/stickers, keep a record of your transaction with you in your vehicle in the event you are stopped by law enforcement. If you are ticketed by law enforcement or right of way enforcement, you may also use proof of your transaction to dispute the ticket with the Parking Magistrate or court.
On a better note, I am having a great time digging deep into the ECU. Latest investigation is determining how which of the 5 fuel maps are applied at any given time. i am amazed at the work Matt and John have done reverse engineering the ECU code. I understand Matt spent over 7 years doing it. There is nothing straight-forward about understanding it. Today's find was discovering that open loop opeation is enabled when final injector pulse width exceeds a table value that is a function of RPM and Coolant temperature. I am searching for more hidden gems like this one. There have to be more that are a function of load and throttle position, but nothing that jumps out at you to say "look at me."
Stay healthy everyone
The process for deciding when to enter open loop is based on 3 checks, that is only one of them. (It's also worth noting that open loop/power enrichment is disabled during warmup, as determined by Max WarmUp Multiplier, Power Enrichment)
First, the final pulsewidth is compared to the value pulled from the Max Pulsewidth for ClosedLoop Operation ClosedLoopMaxPw, this table is indexed using coolant temp and engine RPM like you said. All that does is set a true or false value that will be referenced later in the decision tree. Lets call this flag MaxPwPeRequest.
Next, it checks the throttle position against the values in the TPS Thresh PowerEnrichment_HystOn and TPS Thresh PowerEnrichment_HystOff values, whether it uses the HiAlt or LowAlt set of values depends on the barometric pressure sensor and the threshold found in BARO Threshold PowerEnrichment LowAlt/HiAlt. Lets call the result of this check TpsPeRequest.
After that, it checks the current final pulsewidth against MinInjPw, PowerEnrichment, the result of this check is MinPwPeRequest.
So how does the ECU interpret these flags?
<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<tbody>
</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>The two OFF (but stay on) cases are where if PE is already enabled, it will stay on while MaxPwPeRequest remains true even if other flags are false. For controlling initial PE entry, the TPS values and minimum injector pulsewidth values are the main ones to focus on, but you'll also want to scale the max thresholds probably by the same amount that you adjust the minimum threshold.
First, the final pulsewidth is compared to the value pulled from the Max Pulsewidth for ClosedLoop Operation ClosedLoopMaxPw, this table is indexed using coolant temp and engine RPM like you said. All that does is set a true or false value that will be referenced later in the decision tree. Lets call this flag MaxPwPeRequest.
Next, it checks the throttle position against the values in the TPS Thresh PowerEnrichment_HystOn and TPS Thresh PowerEnrichment_HystOff values, whether it uses the HiAlt or LowAlt set of values depends on the barometric pressure sensor and the threshold found in BARO Threshold PowerEnrichment LowAlt/HiAlt. Lets call the result of this check TpsPeRequest.
After that, it checks the current final pulsewidth against MinInjPw, PowerEnrichment, the result of this check is MinPwPeRequest.
So how does the ECU interpret these flags?
<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
| TpsPeRequest | MinPwPeRequest | MaxPwPeRequest | Open Loop State |
| 0 | 0 | 0 | OFF |
| 0 | 0 | 1 | OFF (but stay on) |
| 0 | 1 | 0 | OFF |
| 0 | 1 | 1 | OFF (but stay on) |
| 1 | 0 | 0 | OFF |
| 1 | 0 | 1 | OFF |
| 1 | 1 | 0 | ON |
| 1 | 1 | 1 | ON |
<tbody>
</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>The two OFF (but stay on) cases are where if PE is already enabled, it will stay on while MaxPwPeRequest remains true even if other flags are false. For controlling initial PE entry, the TPS values and minimum injector pulsewidth values are the main ones to focus on, but you'll also want to scale the max thresholds probably by the same amount that you adjust the minimum threshold.
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Not exactly, but a truth table was the simplest way to represent what the code does.
OK -- this is making more and more sense. It is intreging to start to figure this out from the finished product back to the beginning. This is the very definition of reverse engineering.
I wonder if it would be useful to move all of this to a street-tuning thread to keep it all in one place for future reference? As a moderator, can you do this?
Since I am, and will be for some time, in break-in mode, I won't be able to dial in fuel tables at WOT, or even in open loop for extended periods of time. My understanding is to get fuel tables set before messing with anything else, so I won't be messing with anything else.
One interesting thing about my location is that in less than an hour at this time of year I can drive from 5000' to 12,000' ASL. In summer in the same time I can get to 14000'. (One can often find auto manufacturers from around the world running heavily camouflaged new models on this same route.)
If I can do that, why the hell can't the post office get my plate stickers 5 miles is 5 days? I'm still waiting to get my plates updated.:frown:
I wonder if it would be useful to move all of this to a street-tuning thread to keep it all in one place for future reference? As a moderator, can you do this?
Since I am, and will be for some time, in break-in mode, I won't be able to dial in fuel tables at WOT, or even in open loop for extended periods of time. My understanding is to get fuel tables set before messing with anything else, so I won't be messing with anything else.
One interesting thing about my location is that in less than an hour at this time of year I can drive from 5000' to 12,000' ASL. In summer in the same time I can get to 14000'. (One can often find auto manufacturers from around the world running heavily camouflaged new models on this same route.)
If I can do that, why the hell can't the post office get my plate stickers 5 miles is 5 days? I'm still waiting to get my plates updated.:frown:
It must of been nice to get her back Mark--- Must feel like seeing your kid after a semester abroad!! LOL..
Can't wait to see her back nice and fresh.. Hopefully when the weather gets better we can all get together.. Its been awhile.. Love to hear how she drives now vs before...
Good news its was all "Fixable" Happy Holidays everyone..... 2020 SUCKED...... CAN'T WAIT UNTIL NEXT YEAR.. ITS GOTTA GET BETTER!!!:smile:
Can't wait to see her back nice and fresh.. Hopefully when the weather gets better we can all get together.. Its been awhile.. Love to hear how she drives now vs before...
Good news its was all "Fixable" Happy Holidays everyone..... 2020 SUCKED...... CAN'T WAIT UNTIL NEXT YEAR.. ITS GOTTA GET BETTER!!!:smile:
t was good to get the car back, and since it was first running on the original Brian ProSpeed RDX tune it felt even better than before. Right now I have it on John's "retune from scratch" and it is just fine. I've made a few datalogging runs at very much part throttle, and all seems to be well within parameters.
Depending on WHY you sent you kid on a semister abroad, this was WAY better.
Stay healthy.
Depending on WHY you sent you kid on a semister abroad, this was WAY better.
Stay healthy.
Quick update: I finally got a 1000 miles on the new engine after making many data logging runs on Maps 1, 2 and 3, Part Throttle, EGR and Power Enhancement. The pulse width and AFR outputs are very close to a very steady 14.7 AFR for maps 1 and 2. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it –or even try to fix it.
Map 3 results were quite rich on both Brian and John’s ECU bins, and I’ve make about 6 different bins to get the AFR right at ~12.75 during Power Enhancement.
I’ve spent a LOT of time creating a small Visual Studio/Excel application that rapidly separates and graphs the data logging run into useful visual results. I’m in the final process of bundling this application into a Setup file that I’ll post on John Powell’s Google Docs account when done.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JIpy1YxEH27n2_a4UJa7LrPwDgSgEBFc?ths=true
However a problem has arisen: When trying to get VTEC data I found out that the engine will not go into VTEC. Right around 6800 RPM it goes into what feels like the fuel cut-off and rapidly cycles between full throttle and 0 fuel supply. It throws Check Engine lights of code 22/52. That is the rear oil pressure switch, controlling VTEC.
Some times when data logging, the logging dashboard indicates VTEC is on even at idle, which is obviously bogus. After driving a little bit the gauge seems to reset itself, and I have not pursued the (non) issue. But now it may be more of a concern.
I’ve check the ground connection as the first part of the manual’s trouble shooting procedure, which is about a far as I can go without the test harness. More important, I’ve changed the ECU bin back to the
Brian’s original bin and the car behaves the same. I’m thinking mechanics and not electronics. Two of my Denver friends have their engines in various states of assembly/disassembly so perhaps I can borrow an oil pressure switch and test again. It is more than possible that a small bit of assembly debris could clog the screen filter on the switch and simply cleaning it will solve the problem.
Suggestions appreciated and I’ll keep you posted.
Map 3 results were quite rich on both Brian and John’s ECU bins, and I’ve make about 6 different bins to get the AFR right at ~12.75 during Power Enhancement.
I’ve spent a LOT of time creating a small Visual Studio/Excel application that rapidly separates and graphs the data logging run into useful visual results. I’m in the final process of bundling this application into a Setup file that I’ll post on John Powell’s Google Docs account when done.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1JIpy1YxEH27n2_a4UJa7LrPwDgSgEBFc?ths=true
However a problem has arisen: When trying to get VTEC data I found out that the engine will not go into VTEC. Right around 6800 RPM it goes into what feels like the fuel cut-off and rapidly cycles between full throttle and 0 fuel supply. It throws Check Engine lights of code 22/52. That is the rear oil pressure switch, controlling VTEC.
Some times when data logging, the logging dashboard indicates VTEC is on even at idle, which is obviously bogus. After driving a little bit the gauge seems to reset itself, and I have not pursued the (non) issue. But now it may be more of a concern.
I’ve check the ground connection as the first part of the manual’s trouble shooting procedure, which is about a far as I can go without the test harness. More important, I’ve changed the ECU bin back to the
Brian’s original bin and the car behaves the same. I’m thinking mechanics and not electronics. Two of my Denver friends have their engines in various states of assembly/disassembly so perhaps I can borrow an oil pressure switch and test again. It is more than possible that a small bit of assembly debris could clog the screen filter on the switch and simply cleaning it will solve the problem.
Suggestions appreciated and I’ll keep you posted.
Mark- thanks for the update. We've been wondering how your street tuning is going. We all appreciate the work you're putting in here- you and [MENTION=33247]MotorMouth93[/MENTION] are the OEM tuning vanguard! The VTEC pressure switch rarely fails, but it does happen. I think you're on the right track. If it passes the electric current test, then I would remove it and clean it thoroughly. Make sure to remove the entire piston assembly and blow out the passages with brake cleaner (away from the switch), re-lube with clean engine oil and try again. Remember, each time you remove the solenoid/valve assembly, you must use new O-rings. I'd pick up a couple of sets from Acura in case you need to remove it again. Japan-based NSX techs also replace the 6 mm bolts too, as there is a concern that even a small amount of over-torque can weaken the bolt and lead to leaks due to inconsistent torque. I actually broke a head off of one of those when I replaced the spool valve O-rings on my 91, so I believe it and replace the bolts each time. If it fails the current test, then it's an easy fix- the switches are available from Acura: 37250-PR3-003
Since the motor isn't even a year old and only has 1000 miles on it I don't think there's a need to replace the VTEC solenoid gaskets unless they are leaking. The gaskets are rubber and will work as long as they are still stretchy and pliable, and the grooves limit the squish so they aren't ruined after installation. Once the issue is resolved it might not hurt to replace them for peace of mind but during troubleshooting that seems like a waste of good parts. I've removed and reinstalled VTEC solenoid gaskets multiple times with no issues.
Edit: Fun fact, most of the gaskets on the motor in my car now came off the failed built motor that had 400 miles on it, they all looked indistinguishable from new parts so I just transferred them all over. (There were a couple exceptions like the oil pan gasket.)
Edit: Fun fact, most of the gaskets on the motor in my car now came off the failed built motor that had 400 miles on it, they all looked indistinguishable from new parts so I just transferred them all over. (There were a couple exceptions like the oil pan gasket.)
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Agree for re-using during investigation phase, but for the cheap price of the gaskets, I'd put new ones after the problem is resolved.
Any idea why the VTEC flag is coming on when the engine clearly is not in VTEC?
I'm heading out to my (small) garage right now to pull off the VTEC solenoid and spool valve. I discovered there is no way for me to check theee solinoid continuity with the valve in the engine since there is no way to see what you are doing with a multimeter. The plug spades are so close together I couldn' t tell wheather I was just hitting the spades or touching the probes together. I'll keep you posted.
I'm not sure why the VTEC flag was throwing spurious signals. There used to be two PE, two EGR and two VTEC entries in the adl file -- one with a 0/1 output and one with an ON/OFF output. The dashboard uses a switch ON/OFF, so I removed the 0/1. Still it is sometimes funkey. The EGR switch just started working a while back, and I have no idea why it was such a hassle to get going. I think all this software (including mine) is the work of a single individual-- no team of checkers and recheckers. Also it is complex stuff. We just have to be patient and keep at it.
There is no small amount of witci-craft lurking here either.:smile:
I'm not sure why the VTEC flag was throwing spurious signals. There used to be two PE, two EGR and two VTEC entries in the adl file -- one with a 0/1 output and one with an ON/OFF output. The dashboard uses a switch ON/OFF, so I removed the 0/1. Still it is sometimes funkey. The EGR switch just started working a while back, and I have no idea why it was such a hassle to get going. I think all this software (including mine) is the work of a single individual-- no team of checkers and recheckers. Also it is complex stuff. We just have to be patient and keep at it.
There is no small amount of witci-craft lurking here either.:smile:
Finally got it off (after a fight and much cursing -- is it easier to access from under the car?) and on the bench. The electrics check out -- continuity through the solinoid coil. I'll dismantle it later and give it a thorough cleaning. After that, if it still won't pass 7200 RPM . . . .
A good friend of mine had a similar VTEC issue IIRC. He use to post here under illwillem. I have not refreshed my memory with his old thread but I recall him going through those same VTEC Error codes. He use to track his NSX more (holds a few local track records). Then he blew his original motor > got it rebuilt > rebuilder reused some old parts after cleaning carefully... then it blew again etc long story short we think that despite how well it was cleaned before rebuild we think some metal particles clogged up the VTEC system (somewhere) as that's when the VTEC errors started showing up... he finally just got sick of it and bought a low mile used motor. Been running ever since.
This is why when doing a rebuild, i'm a bit paranoid of using old parts where any chance of metal shavings could still be present. i.e. oil passages, etc.
This is why when doing a rebuild, i'm a bit paranoid of using old parts where any chance of metal shavings could still be present. i.e. oil passages, etc.
Interesting story, Regan. I just came upstairs to get the torque specs to reassemble my VTEC valve. The screen in the valve looked a little smutty, and more important, when removing the solenoid from the valve body, there was no spring action pushing the two part apart.
That meant nothing to me until I reassembled the partss after a thorough cleaning and blasting of all the oil passages. I'll put it back on the car and see what happens.
Your point about always new parts is well taken. However, your friend's problem with potential blockage due to assembly junk may not have been in the valve, but just about anywhere else in the VTEC system. Life is a crap shoot, and I don't want to wait a week to get a new valve, especially since I may have uncovered the issue, which I hope was cleared with the cleaning.
Thanks for your interest. I continue to be intregued with your ITB project.
Mark
That meant nothing to me until I reassembled the partss after a thorough cleaning and blasting of all the oil passages. I'll put it back on the car and see what happens.
Your point about always new parts is well taken. However, your friend's problem with potential blockage due to assembly junk may not have been in the valve, but just about anywhere else in the VTEC system. Life is a crap shoot, and I don't want to wait a week to get a new valve, especially since I may have uncovered the issue, which I hope was cleared with the cleaning.
Thanks for your interest. I continue to be intregued with your ITB project.
Mark
Agree 100%. The blockage could have been anywhere really. Hope you get yours resolved soon!
