GM to Ax 30,000 Jobs, Close 12 Facilities

White92 said:
Do the workers at the U.S. "foreign" plants work for the UAW? Or is it just a GM thing? ie: are the workers in the Honda plants that are in the U.S. part of a union?

No, the UAW represents the hourly workers at the Big 3 in the US and Canada, and some of the suppliers (Delphi and Visteon, for example). Workers at Honda, Toyota and Nissan (and other foreign car companies) have reject attempts to unionize those plants.

Workers at those locations suffer incredible hardships - namely, they have to go to the cafeteria to buy their hot food. :eek:
 
TC said:
Workers at those locations suffer incredible hardships - namely, they have to go to the cafeteria to buy their hot food. :eek:

Sounds terrible! I can't believe this still goes on in this day and age! :biggrin:

Seriously though. I don't want to make a generalization, but I've worked at both a Ford and Acura dealership. The difference between U.S. made cars and the cars still made in Japan are there. Everything from leftover parts, screws, etc left inside the cars or never installed at all to serious flaws in the paint.

I worked at Ford when the 99 Super Duty trucks were introduced. They have a badge on the front quarterpanel showing the engine that truck has. About half of the time the badges would either be missing from one side, upside down or the best was when they didn't even match. One side would say "V10" and the other side would say "V8" :smile:
 
Read "power shift" by Alvin Toffler..it explains very well how our economy is changing and how labor unions are just speeding up the process of blue collar jobs being moved off shore.
 
Wow, you guys really got alot of input on this. Anyway, another thing I want to bring up is Toyota with their Kaizen theory, which is to improve your self. My old English teacher mentioned this a few times and it had amazed me.

Now what does this have to with GM and why did I mention Toyota. Well, Toyota uses this theory to improve their cars. They look in many ways to improve their cars. They looked at the US auto industry and realized what people wanted stander in their cars while the big 3 had them as options...like Power items, DM Radio, and A/C. GM on the other hand, thinks by looking to improve thier company by cutting cost. Another thing Toyota does is they put a car(any Toytota Model) in their HQ in Japan and they have a suggestion box. THAT SIMPLE. IMO Toyota will deffinetly triumph over GM in 5 years. The next flow of rental cars, Corrola's, Solara's Matrix's, their Minivan, Tacoma. I BET you that will happen. Another thing, I know I am going to get flamed for this one, Toyota will buy the whole GM Division. Just buy a controll them, the cars names will remain the same.
 
Pacemaker Kid89 said:
Another thing, I know I am going to get flamed for this one, Toyota will buy the whole GM Division. Just buy a controll them, the cars names will remain the same.

I don't disagree with this at all and wouldn't be surprised if it happened. I've said it a few times before on Prime.
 
zahntech said:
I doubt that if you owned a machine shop and you came in on the night shift making hot dogs in your 100k piece of equipment rather than doing their work you would have the same opinion.

I know i'll get flamed for this but for me( and i don't claim to be a genius, just a guy with common sense)as long as i don't lose any money, i wouldn't care what he did if nobody got hurt and he did damage my equipment. Of all the skilled tradesmen i know in both plants here in, i have yet to see anybody do anything stupid to put the company and they're own jobs in jeopardy(money is way to tight and were else can i go and fix robots?). Anyway you don't need 100k piece of equipment to make hot dogs, i use my george foreman grill in my Knaack box! :wink:

These assembly plants get paid by how many units they produce a day(build). If they hit they're numbers all years(because use hot dog cookers are keeping things going with what little scrap we have) who do you think gets the big bonus? Yep, the aztek designers. The minivan plant loses 3k a minute when we have a breakdown. Who gets blames for the breakdown........us hot dog cookers :eek: Like we have any say so in anything. We never have meetings like the big wigs do.

The real reasons like, NO MATERIALS AND PARTS TO FIX ANYTHING(to cheap have anything extra), POORLY DESIGNED WORK CELLS TO CUT COST(smaller robots,undersized robots are cheaper), INCOMPETANT SUPS WHO WORKED AT QUIKTRIP BEFORE FINISHING THE DEGREES RUNNING THE PLACE(we install, maintain and fine tune these cells, but were to stupid to run the show............we fry up a frank, tho :rolleyes: ), AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST, HORRIBLE COMMUNICATIONS(2 supervisors asking me whats wrong but NOBODY can order or FIND any replacement parts, robots running 20 hours a day for 4 years and i get blamed if an axis jumps off), are why these US automakers are suffering-bad management.


You can eat off the floor in a toyota plant, but i wear a different pair of shoes home when i leave here. At toyota they involve EVERYONE in the automaking proces, I got a 21 years that got his orders on telling me what to adjust form someboy in detroit who...........had entirely different equipment. GM MUST COME UP WITH A WAT TO BOOST SALES!! Cutting a few jobs yea, ok, i would too. But cutting jobs does not increase sales. Period

Geez, that took longer than i wanted to take :biggrin:
 
Dave Hardy said:
Toyota will not buy GM unless they are in bankruptcy and the union contracts voided first. The UAW is a cancer on the american auto industry, and Toyota is smarter than to buy a limb infected with cancer.

Don't those contracts end in 2008? I heard on a talk radio show this morning that they did and GM can't technically shut down the plants 100% until the contracts expire because according to the contract they have to provide a place for the workers to work. So maybe it could happen after that time?

If this is true, I could see it happening. I would actually love for it to happen. GM products with Toyota reliability, fit and finish. A guy can dream can't he? :biggrin:
 
TC said:
I agree with you that auto workers aren't overpaid - I never suggested that in my posts. It is hard, hot, loud and tedious work and Big 3 union pay is actually less than their counterparts at Honda America when you factor in the holiday bonus (which is usually $3-5k at Honda and $200 at GM).

Training, on the other hand, IMO is a weakness of the union system. My father paid union dues for 30 years and the union provided little training. He went to community college on his own to learn CNC machining. Unions should be at the forefront of improving worker skills, not holding them back. But the UAW union contract has strict limits on the amount of manufacturing automation that GM can use. And if you work for GM I'm sure you know of the infamous "Job Bank" agreement where laid-off employees still receive 95% of their pay for not working. GM has over 5,000 such Job Bank employees.

Put it all together - limits on automation, pay for unneeded workers, a pay system to promotes medicrity, tolerance of underperformers - and it's no wonder that GM doesn't have the ability to build good cars. As you pointed out, DCX began producing good cars after they restructured the workforce.

Also, many of my father's co-workers from GM now work for Honda, Nissan and Toyota (US manufacturing) - and these plants have consistently rebuffed attempts to unionize them. It's interesting to me that former UAW employees don't want the UAW at their new company.

FWIW.



i'm not sure how toolmakers and other trades are trained. In welder repair we go to a facility in detroit to get state of the art training. Its hard to stay abreast of new technology for an entire workforce(10k people?) Sometimes people don't have time to go to additional training and all the other stuff you get forced into. (I honestly try to stay abreast of all new stuff, but im only 32 and SINGLE WITH NO KIDS) Ive seen them completely gut a whole minivan facility and pitch everything inside, robots, cubicles and all!(wonder what that cost?) These car companies have a few thousand in a car you paid 28k for. I think minivans cost chrysler about 6k to make or less, you go and price a town and country brand new. Also upper management gets rewarded for what??? Numbers???? We know everyone is cooking books these days. No automaker CEO deserves a 12 mil dollar salary(especially if he didn't come up from the floor and progress thru the company) IMHO. Working people in the job bank(thats already been funded thru other channels) can't even touch some of these CEO golden parachutes. If nsx prime became a pay sight, Lud would get PM's out the a$$!!! If some members thought Lud was getting paid mint for running prime, as soon as a server went down, some people would be on his ass. In america, it's definitely about getting something for nothing, look how many prime people post and have donated shit!!!! You mean to tell me, that union members in the job bank are bankrupting a mega coporation such as GM???? In any business from selling porno's to installing superchargers..........its all about how your system is managed, how you reward hard work and other incentives to keep you ship running. You don't expect your nsx to run forever just because it is an "NSX?" If you don't properly include every aspect of ownership(maintenance, washing, etc). it will not perform to your expectations. long winded again. :smile:
 
White92 said:
Sounds terrible! I can't believe this still goes on in this day and age! :biggrin:

Seriously though. I don't want to make a generalization, but I've worked at both a Ford and Acura dealership. The difference between U.S. made cars and the cars still made in Japan are there. Everything from leftover parts, screws, etc left inside the cars or never installed at all to serious flaws in the paint.

I worked at Ford when the 99 Super Duty trucks were introduced. They have a badge on the front quarterpanel showing the engine that truck has. About half of the time the badges would either be missing from one side, upside down or the best was when they didn't even match. One side would say "V10" and the other side would say "V8" :smile:


US assembly plant line speed are VERY fast. The minivan plant(chrysler)in st.louis have a target build of 1200 vehicles in two 8 hours shifts. They do not want the line stopped!! Foreign carmakers don't run nearly that fast. Maybe that explains the excessive recall rate in US cars. If some body collapses on the floor, they sweep him out of the way and replace him. DON'T STOP THE LINE!!! The UAW and unions did not make the rules, they just bargain for fair treament if you collapse :smile: . Again not defending unions of other things just trying to help clarify that when big company's like GM and ALL they're divisions go down, it's not because some employee whined that his back is hurting from lifting rails into a machine.
 
Pacemaker Kid89 said:
I just think that this is sad and will not by any means help GM, I think they are going to be suffering for a while now, let alone die soon if people dont start buying their cars and if they dont really improve their R/D and get this whole fuel economy thing really fixed up

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051121/ap_on_bi_ge/gm

well gm sucks. if you suck in this world. you have no skills so u don't survive. why is this sad?
 
ZR-1 NSX said:
I certainly don't want to catogorize all union laborers as having this mentality, and don't mean to stir any bad feelings among those on this board who might be UAW workers, but these folks really need to understand that there are many people in the US who make far far less money doing the same type of work.

and many many people who make far less money doing way more IMPORTANT work... my dad is a high school math teacher and just cracked $50,000 a year a few years ago... he's nearing his 25th year of teaching and is far and away the highest paid teacher in his district.

Newly graduated teachers, in Ohio atleast, can expect $25,000 and it's mandatory for them to get their masters in a certain period of time, and since it's mandatory.... good luck finding an emplyer who will pay for it.

People ask me why I never went into teaching, because I have a knack for it and am pretty smart... this is why...

seems kind of shitty that in this country... our teachers make less than some guy with only a diploma sitting in a factory "turning a torque wrench" and we also pay pro-athletes more in one game than teachers make in 5 years.

*oh, and umm, when USA produces a car that compares to the foreign market... I'll buy one. I literally get into shouting matches with some of the rednecks back home about this stuff when i was looking for a civic or jetta... "buy a chevy... buy american... get a sunfire..." pretty ass-backwards when you have to talk someone into a honda instead of a chevy. but this is america... pride and whatnot.. whatever*

go usa?... meh... random rant over
 
rickysals said:
and many many people who make far less money doing way more IMPORTANT work... my dad is a high school math teacher and just cracked $50,000 a year a few years ago... he's nearing his 25th year of teaching and is far and away the highest paid teacher in his district.

Newly graduated teachers, in Ohio atleast, can expect $25,000 and it's mandatory for them to get their masters in a certain period of time, and since it's mandatory.... good luck finding an emplyer who will pay for it.

People ask me why I never went into teaching, because I have a knack for it and am pretty smart... this is why...

seems kind of shitty that in this country... our teachers make less than some guy with only a diploma sitting in a factory "turning a torque wrench" and we also pay pro-athletes more in one game than teachers make in 5 years.

go usa?... meh... random rant over


i totally agree. but what do you value more in life? Money? Pristege & honor?

ya you can make shitload of money, go work at construction or a carpenter.
or you can devote your life studying chem but getting minimally paid.

what is more important? thats to the discretion of the individual and what is necessary at the time.

For instance, im wandering why im in school at all? What am i gonna do after i graduate? What the hell am i gonna do with a degree in chemistry or biology?
 
There was a time an place for unions, however there are so many labor laws now, the union is a hinderance. I used to work in the warehouse for UPS when in college, a supervisor couldn't even talk to you without a union rep there also. GM has to get rid of the union to be profitable.
 
nsxlover said:
There was a time an place for unions, however there are so many labor laws now, the union is a hinderance. I used to work in the warehouse for UPS when in college, a supervisor couldn't even talk to you without a union rep there also. GM has to get rid of the union to be profitable.


the UAW represent the big 3. i wouldn't work in construction or any labor intensive program without a union. So daimler/chrysler and Ford should do the same? GM made money in the past(when they made decent attractive vehicles for the public to buy). So you say the union is the reason for poor sales??? The UAW has worked with GM all this time(especially trying to help with paying double for healthcare), just the big execs get un godly bonuses and somebody designs unattractive vehicles(UAW is not responsible for bad management or poor designs) but they continue to keep these people employed. Why should the employees take the heat and the blame? Employing shop stewards does not figure up to a 4 billion dollar loss in sales. :confused:
 
rickysals said:
*oh, and umm, when USA produces a car that compares to the foreign market... I'll buy one. I literally get into shouting matches with some of the rednecks back home about this stuff when i was looking for a civic or jetta... "buy a chevy... buy american... get a sunfire..." pretty ass-backwards when you have to talk someone into a honda instead of a chevy. but this is america... pride and whatnot.. whatever*

go usa?... meh... random rant over

This is always my favorite too. People at my work (mostly women) will be looking for a new car to replace their American beater. They come to me for advice because they all know I'm a car nut. 99% of the time I will suggest a Civic to them because it is practical, fits into their budget and won't kill them on maintenance. NONE of them have ever bought one. They will either go buy something like an 01 lease return Grand Am because it's cheap enough or they will keep their beater and keep dumping money into just to keep it running. One girl told me that she didn't want a Civic becase she didn't want a "me too" car.

It also blows me away when people get stuck on the "buy American" rant. How many of the Big 3 cars and trucks are still made in the U.S.A?! If by "American" they mean North America, then I guess that would be correct, but not the United States.
 
I'm not surprised GM is facing hard times, if only for the simple reason that the only new GM car I ever bought was a POS, and the dealer experience was equal in quality to the car.
 
Since I am involved in Healthcare and it is a big target due to cost for the auto industry, I'd thought I would share how UAW is working with the autos.

I was on the Pharmacy and Therapeutics committee for our local HMO. Interestingly, UAW required that certain medications be on their formulary for UAW subscribers. This was a name brand, no generic available but there were clearly equivalent generics as well as other name brands with fewer side effects that were less expensive. Interesting how these drugs were REQUIRED. For those of you that don't know, the Autos are the largest insurer in the country next to Medicare. Also, the co-pay for medications was $5 for 90 days supply. The patients would invariably demand the name brand and after the name brand went generic, would request a different name brand. They also had no copay for their office visits. I think that due to the high profile of the CEOs, they are easy targets for their high salaries. This requirement for certain drugs clearly cost much more than the salaries and it sure stinks of graft. In our HMO alone, this requirement cost over 2 million.

I am in MI and a large number of my patients worked for the autos. It is interesting that many of them complain about the way that the union has protected the poor worker and how it rewards for time versus skill. Many of them also complain of the patronage involved in the union. When it comes to the anticipated cuts for health care, this actually involves the retired worker more than the rank and file current employee. The retired worker would be the one to lose prescription benefits and are now on a fixed income.
 
this from www.thosebastards.com (and apparently msnbc.com, too:)

all legal notices, blah blah blah, apply:
***************************************************************

"GM slashing 30,000 jobs because their cars suck
By King Bastard | Monday, November 21, 2005 1:09 PM

From MSNBC.com:

General Motors Corp. will eliminate 30,000 jobs and close nine North American assembly, stamping and powertrain plants by 2008 as part of an effort to get production in line with demand and position the world’s biggest automaker to start making money again after absorbing nearly $4 billion in losses so far this year.

The announcement Monday by Rick Wagoner, GM’s chairman and CEO, represents 5,000 more job cuts than the 25,000 that the automaker had previously indicated it planned to cut. United Auto Workers union leaders called the cuts “extremely disappointing, unfair and unfortunate.”

It's not a big surprise that General Motors is slashing 30,000 employees to try and save the company. They have enough of their own problems elsewhere (read: Delphi), but what it basically comes down to is they are building cars that no one wants to buy, and when you do buy them, the cars takes too long to fix.

That is the worst way to build customer loyalty.

It's not just General Motors, it's also Ford and Chrysler, and most of the fault lies with the workers of those companies who build the cars, and also the UAW for allowing the workers to slip this far. No one is guaranteed a job if the workers' performance is so bad that the company goes bankrupt, right?

I'll give you an example -- a friend of mine owns an American-built car, and to keep his identity secret, the car's name starts with "Mus" and ends with "stang", He's had it roughly for six months, and the liner in the trunk is already falling apart. He could take it back to the dealer, but there's several other small problems with the car, and he figures that it's just better to live with it.

In comparison, another friend of mine owns a Scion, and that car is rock solid. I've driven it, and it's one of the best values I've ever seen. I also drive a foreign car, but that car is assembled here in the United States, and the workmanship is far superior than many cars I've seen built by American auto makers.

And do you want stories about what actually goes on in Detroit on the production line? Just never buy a car built on a Monday or Friday.

Combine that with quality and featres that are five years behind many of the other auto makers, and pretty soon you have a cycle of profit sapping rebates and other incentives that contributes to the record losses being put up by these companies. Of course consumers are going to wait for the incentives, but other than that there really isn't a reason to buy the cars.

I don't buy the argument about excessive pension costs -- if they built quality cars, people would buy them, period."
****************************************************************
 
zahntech said:
I doubt that if you owned a machine shop and you came in on the night shift making hot dogs in your 100k piece of equipment rather than doing their work you would have the same opinion.
You believe that story???

I got some beach front property in Arizona for sale.... :biggrin:


Even if that story was true, where was the non-union management ???



Everyone seems to want to blame the unions while they're shopping at Wal-Mart.....It's companies like non-union Wal-Mart that are the real problem...
If you want the US to become a third world economy, keep siding with companies like WM and keep buying everything made in China...

To blame GM's problems solely on the Union is myopic...The high cost of health insurance is one of the main reasons companies are leaving US to do business in Canada where they have a national health care system...The US Government should have saw this coming a mile away and fixed this along time ago...Blaming Unions is not the answer....
 
When you have to pay somebody $35/hour to put a piece of trim on a door, then the union does hurt the companies. I worked for a union company and know that the mentality of some (not all) union workers is that I a going to do what I want because the management can't touch me.

Yes, the big executives do get big bonuses, but they are the ones running the company and they busted their asses getting MBA's and educated themselves.

BTW, my health benefits have gone up over 10% every year for the past 4 years, that is not union specific.

Back in 94, I bought a new Corvette, it was the worst car I have ever owned. It was in the shop for 3 of the first 4 months of ownership. During those 3 months, I had the worst customer service I have ever received. That alone convinced me to never buy an american car again.
 
91 X said:
You believe that story???

I got some beach front property in Arizona for sale.... :biggrin:


Even if that story was true, where was the non-union management ???



Everyone seems to want to blame the unions while they're shopping at Wal-Mart.....It's companies like non-union Wal-Mart that are the real problem...
If you want the US to become a third world economy, keep siding with companies like WM and keep buying everything made in China...

To blame GM's problems solely on the Union is myopic...The high cost of health insurance is one of the main reasons companies are leaving US to do business in Canada where they have a national health care system...The US Government should have saw this coming a mile away and fixed this along time ago...Blaming Unions is not the answer....

It is a true story - I watched my father go to work for 15 years - he never took a lunch when on the night shift because he bought food from the local "chef." There was no non-union supervisor on the graveyard shift - but even when the problem came to light, it was impossible for the person to be fired.

I would also not blame all of GM's ills on the union, but clearly the union is a major contributor to the problem. In today's world, companies need to be fast and flexible - which is something a multi-year union-based collective bargaining contract interferes a company's ability to respond to the market.

As for Walmart, yes, they don't pay very well. But union-based Kmart went chapter 11, shut down hundreds of stores, laid-off thousands of employees, screwed over hundreds of vendors and lost billions of shareholder investment. So which is worse?

I lived in upstate NY for many years - there is a great supermarket chain called Wegmans there. For about 5 years the union organized a picket at various Wegmans stores saying that they should be unionized. Of course, Wegmans pay and benefits far exceeded that of union stores, like Tops. Today, Tops is gone and Wegmans is becoming one of the largest supermarkets in the country.

Union membership is falling so even the workers themselves see less and less value.
 
My point was that blaming unions is not the answer...Sure there are some bad things about unions, but for the most part they have done some great things for the working class...GM management/execs are to blame for their woes, not the dude cooking hot dogs on the production line who was allowed to by management..It starts at the top. Fix the health care system, the BIG $$$ pay of top executives and the corruption of those execs and build better cars and you might not have to lay off 30,000 people....29,000 of them were probably hard working honest people....
 
Unions have done some good things, but I think their need has gone.

I wonder what the UAW president pays himself...

found it...

According to the UAW, Gettelfinger's 2004 salary was $140,949. The base pay for union workers is about $56,000 per year

Here is an interesting article.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_23/b3936037_mz011.htm
 
It's nice to see some good topic material and debating going on here. :smile:

I recall reading somewhere that's it's not likely for GM to go bankrupt anytime soon. I thought it was mentioned here Business Week -UAW Commentary but I must've seen it elsewhere. A good article nonetheless though which reiterates some of the personal stories of people here.

Either way, from what I remember reading, GM has a lot of liquidity on hand in cash and assets that can quickly be sold such as their GMAC division, and although economically unsound, can even draw from their retiree funds (just like social security! :biggrin: )

Personally I like the idea of unions, as some are necessary (such as the musicians union), but think UAW has run it's course. Now they're hurting themselves with their greed and stubbornness. I just wonder if the average UAW member realizes it and how it relates to the big economic picture. And if not, then when?


edit: nsxlover - I see we read the same source, just different article:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_45/b3958038.htm :smile:
 
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