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Got an unfair ticket

Joined
8 March 2006
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Location
Boston
So I was driving to come onto the highway. I had a woman in front of me merging at 25MPH. Traffic was heavy. I accelerated past and went around her. I signaled, and I did not make any sudden moves. But the exhaust valve was open and the CTSC was whining. Just as I always do, I look in my rearview and see a car far away that looks like a possible Statey. Anyway the blues come on immediately, and I pull over. He asks if I knew why I was pulled over. I said no. He asked how fast I was going, I said I did not look at the speedo. He asked if I was in a hurry, I said no. He asked what I thought the average high speed was. I said "not sure... 60?" knowing it was actually higher. He went and came back with a ticket. He said "I was going 70 and you were pulling away from me".... "I could hear the roar of your exhaust 10 car lengths back". I said "My car is loud". He said "I know everyone here is speeding, but we can't pull eveyone over". Then he gave me a speech about the dangers, and said "I know it must be tempting owning a car like this, but you should take it to a closed course". I didn't say anything. He said "I estimated you were going at least 70. But I am giving you a ticket for the minumum". He handed me a ticket for 65 in a 55. I just couldn't believe it. He didn't even follow me for more than 5 seconds MAX to be able to guess at my speed. The ticket is only $100 but now 5 years of insurance premiums... I am really upset and I am going to fight this one.

I am just wondering if anyone has any advice. I find this ironic. I never street race, even when I get 10 challenges everytime I am in the car. My friends make fun of me because most of the time I am in the far right lane crusing slower than anybody. Now, I get this.
 
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Sorry to hear man. I got nailed doing something very similar. Guy claimed he got me doing 60 in a 50. Same reason I was passing someone, so yeah I would be going faster, otherwise it would just be called following. Friggin cop, I honestly think this was just one of those "red sports car" moment. Cop wanted to be an ass and picked on the shiny red car. Nothing you can do. :mad:

I'm lucky and I was able to go to traffic school. :cool:

Gonna be a tough fight if you go that route. Hopefully others can give you advice. Good luck. :redface:
 
He said "I estimated you were going at least 70. But I am giving you a ticket for the minumum". He handed me a ticket for 65 in a 55.
Wait a second.. so he never actually measured your speed he just guessed you're doing 70 and is allowed to give you a ticket without having proof? Wow.
 
Why is this in the wiki forum?
 
Wait a second.. so he never actually measured your speed he just guessed you're doing 70 and is allowed to give you a ticket without having proof? Wow.

Yes, on the ticket it says "clocked, estimated". Meaning clocked by pacing me, and estimated as in no radar. The estimated part is right, the clocked part is BS.

Mods can you please move thread? My apologies.
 
Wait a second.. so he never actually measured your speed he just guessed you're doing 70 and is allowed to give you a ticket without having proof? Wow.

Yes, they are allowed to do that and trained to guestimate speeds. Sounds crazy but it's true.

In the officer's defense, sounds like you didn't even know how fast you were going, Dave. You should have used your Ned Flanders defense when he originally asked you how fast you were going.
 
Yes, they are allowed to do that and trained to guestimate speeds. Sounds crazy but it's true.

In the officer's defense, sounds like you didn't even know how fast you were going, Dave. You should have used your Ned Flanders defense when he originally asked you how fast you were going.

I know I wasn't going faster than the traffic in the left lane. I thought you were going to blame my blown engine somehow.... lol...
 
I know I wasn't going faster than the traffic in the left lane. I thought you were going to blame my blown engine somehow.... lol...

I think it's really time to remove the supercharger since you can't really handle the power.

So you were not going faster than traffic in the left lane but you could have been speeding since you weren't paying attention? Just playing devil's advocate here so you can come up with a defense.
 
That is an EASY, EASY ticket to get out of.... if he didn't clock you on a CALIBRATED laser or radar gun then ticket goes by-by. It is going to be a PITA because you are probably going to have to show for court 2-3 times. First to plead NOT GUILTY and then go back to actually have your day in court in which the officer will probably not show, etc, etc.

Just because a car looks fast doesn't mean it is.... and they are "trained" to estimate speed? My ass. Just like they are trained for high pursuit chases.... I had a State Trooper as a student at an HPDE class in his Mustang Cobra and he couldn't drive worth a crap. He also made one of the worst students I have ever had as he wouldn't listen to anything I said. He told me that "he had been a trooper for 25 years he knew how to drive fast just fine." I refused to ride with them anymore (only time I have done that) and he was booted later that day for having 3 offs. He was a dick anyway.
 
Just ask for a Jury Trial. When you go, tell the jury that you were traveling under the speed limit due to the lady merging. You realized that you needed to accelerate due to her not seeing your vehicle and so you pressed the pedal getting to the posted speed limit.
I have been involved in something VERY similar to this and when you ask for a Jury Trial, you are tried on the violation of the ticket. If the officer can not prove to the jury the EXACT speed posted on the ticket, you will be found innocent by the jury. Be sure not to admitt guilt as to saying you went above the posted speed limit. If so, you are automatically guilty. Also... do not accept a lower reduction in the fine or points prior to the trial from the officer OR the magistrate. If you are found not guilty, the whole ticket will get dropped not reduced.
The officer will more than likely not want to waste his time on something he can not prove to a Jury without a reasonable doubt. This wastes time and taxpayers money.
 
BTW: Your mistake was saying you didn't know how fast you were going....

I got pulled over and the cop asked, "Do you know how fast you were going?"

I replied, "yes, I do... I was going 55 mph."

He then stated, "looked like you were doing alot faster than that. I estimated 75 mph or greater because it took awhile for me to catch up."

"Nope, the spedo said 55 mph." At that, he let me go. He didn't get it on radar, so he knew his estimate wouldn't hold up in court.
 
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I had posted this in another thread on how to beat tickets in New York:

As a result of technology causing virtually everything to be computer generated to a certain extent nowadays, sometimes the law lags behind the technology. This could work to everyone's benefit at least in the short term with the switch over to "E tickets" in place of the old handwritten UTTs.

The tickets now being issued are generated by computer in the officer's vehicle. The technology has included an "e signature" at the bottom of the ticket. However, the technology for "e signing" involves the signature being preprinted on the blank forms in the computer which are filled out after the traffic stop. That means that the officer is affiming the information about the ticket is valid BEFORE the information is even inputted onto the form by the computer. Therefore, the officer is "affirming" the facts about an offense before those facts are even known.

Such tickets, at least for now, are subject to dismissal on the consitutional grounds that your due process rights have been violated as the result of a fatal defect in the accusatory instrument, the "pre-signed" e-ticket, which still requires an actual original signature be affixed after the document is generated.

One way that the tickets have been found to be valid is if you ask for a supporting deposition and the officer actually signs that document. More and more tickets, however, have been printed with a supporting depostion being generated by the same software and at the same time, thereby containing another e-signature.

The software currently under contract with the State is called "TRACX" and is capable of being updated to correct these due process errors. However, this argument has been accepted by the local courts recently and I would encourage its use for all those offenders among us who need a little extra leverage to get a good plea deal.

For those of you looking for a more formal recitation of this argument, I will provide a more detailed analysis below but due to its length I figured I would provide a synopsis first to satisfy anyone with ADD.

The following is taken from the case of People v. Rose
11 Misc.3d 200, 805 N.Y.S.2d 506, 2005 N.Y. Slip Op. 25526


Under the TRACX system, the police car must be equipped with a computer terminal, a printer and a bar code scanner which also functions as a digital imager. When issuing a ticket under the Vehicle and Traffic Law, a trooper clicks on the computer screen icon to enter the program and types in his or her user name and personal password. The computer then brings up the appropriate template which is immediately populated with information unique to that trooper including the trooper's electronic signature which he or she had previously scanned into the computer. At that point, the e-ticket is blank in many respects and does not contain any information relating specifically to the individual being ticketed. Using the bar code on the defendant's license and registration, the officer scans them electronically inserting on the ticket information relating to the driver and the car stopped. After the template is populated with that data, the Trooper manually inserts information regarding the type of arrest, location of the offense, section of law violated (including MPH if appropriate), court data and future date of the defendants appearance to answer the ticket. Once all the data has been entered, the Trooper checks a button to validate the ticket, a process which alerts the trooper to any mis-entries and provides an opportunity for the trooper to correct any errors. After any corrections have been made, the trooper clicks on validate. According to the testimony at the hearing, validating the ticket is not the same as electronically signing it. Once the ticket has been validated, a copy is printed out for the driver. It is only when the ticket is printed that the information is “locked” in the computer and cannot be altered by the trooper or his or her supervisors. If multiple tickets are issued to the driver, the trooper has the option to click on the button marked “replicate” and a copy of the ticket appears already populated with trooper, driver, car, location and court information to which the trooper can then add the specific section of the Vehicle and Traffic Law allegedly violated. After the trooper's tour of duty all simplified informations issued are downloaded into the computer at the state police substation and through a series of network connections are distributed to OCA and DMV among others.

The e-ticket is “signed” before any information regarding the traffic stop is placed on the ticket. Thus, the arresting officer is signing an essentially blank document. If a simplified information was required by law to be verified, this distinction alone would be fatal to an e-ticket since the signature affirms only what appears before it in the document. In the case of e-tickets, the arresting officer would be affirming nothing specifically relating to the motorist, the vehicle or the offense allegedly committed since none of that information is entered on the e-ticket until after is electronically signed. Since the commissioner's rules indicate that an arresting officer's signature on a UTT “constitutes the affirmation of the information under penalty of perjury,” the absence of such a provision in the rules relating to e-tickets is troubling to the court.

Since the Criminal Procedure Law and Vehicle and Traffic Law defer in great measure to the Motor Vehicle Commissioner's rule making authority, the most expedient changes may be accomplished by amending the rules relating to e-tickets. Specifically, the rules should describe in detail the form of the ticket to make it clear that it is one-sided and in one color. The rules should set forth a type size and location on the e-ticket for notice with regard to how one may appear and answer a ticket as well as sanctions which may be imposed for failure to appear. More importantly, the rules should require that the last act by an officer issuing an e-ticket should be to click on an “I affirm” button on the computer which is preceded on the screen by a form notice which mirrors that on the simplified information that indicates it is “affirmed under penalty of perjury.” As Lt. Casper candidly admitted at the hearing, there is no reason why the software can't be re-programmed to accomplish such an affirmation.
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Actually, pacing tickets are some of the most difficult to get out of, with a device, you can look into its calibration, fault its use, question its results, but with a pacing ticket, its your word, against that of the officer - guess who the judge is going to be more inclined to believe?

If it were me, I would still fight it, perhaps he will be a no show, or you can dazzle the court with fancy diagrams of the road where this occured, etc. but this:
That is an EASY, EASY ticket to get out of.... if he didn't clock you on a CALIBRATED laser or radar gun then ticket goes by-by

Is BS, at least in California.
 
That is an EASY, EASY ticket to get out of.... if he didn't clock you on a CALIBRATED laser or radar gun then ticket goes by-by. It is going to be a PITA because you are probably going to have to show for court 2-3 times. First to plead NOT GUILTY and then go back to actually have your day in court in which the officer will probably not show, etc, etc.

Not a defense in New York. It is also rare for officers to not show up since they put several tickets on for the same day/night and get overtime for showing up in court.

I am 11-0 on the constitutional argument I outlined. Just ask LarryB if you don't believe me...........
 
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Actually, pacing tickets are some of the most difficult to get out of, with a device, you can look into its calibration, fault its use, question its results, but with a pacing ticket, its your word, against that of the officer - guess who the judge is going to be more inclined to believe?

If it were me, I would still fight it, perhaps he will be a no show, or you can dazzle the court with fancy diagrams of the road where this occured, etc. but this:


Is BS, at least in California.

Not in the rest of the world. Unless they are right behind you or to the side - pacing is the most unscientific way to measure speed.

How far behind the vehicle were you? No, exactly how far?
How long did it take to catch up to the vehicle? No, exactly how many seconds? What was the closure rate? How did you figure the math of the closure rate to catching the vehicle?

Face it, just because a cop thinks he can "estimate" the speed doesn't mean he is even close. Now, he can testify that the car was going at an extremely high rate of speed (100+) but even then he can't say whether it was 95, 100, 120, 140. They have no clue. All he can say is that it was an extremely high rate of speed.

Sorry, but I don't believe even for a second that a "paced estimated" ticket is hard to get out of.... even in CA.
 
Oops, my bad - I assumed the ticket was in NY but I forgot that Dave lives in a foreign state. :redface:

But if you get a ticket in NY, Dave, then follow my advice.

p.s. and if you do get picked up and locked up in NY, remember my other advice: when they give you one phone call, make sure you call for pizza because we will both be hungry by the time I can come down to bail you out.
 
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Not in the rest of the world. Unless they are right behind you or to the side - pacing is the most unscientific way to measure speed.

In New York you do not even need to pace. A visual calculation is sufficient to convict. New York officers take a class to estimate speed simply by standing there and watching a car drive by. Not exactly fair in court since every visual estimate gets upheld against the driver.
 
In New York you do not even need to pace. A visual calculation is sufficient to convict. New York officers take a class to estimate speed simply by standing there and watching a car drive by. Not exactly fair in court since every visual estimate gets upheld against the driver.

You got to be shtn me... a class to estimate speed. So how does one estimate 65 vs 70 vs 75? Do they have to go back and take recurrent classes? Do they count one Mississippi, two Mississippi as the car goes by?

I have a racelogic GPS datalogger in my car that tracks speed (using GPS & accelerometers), time, distance, Lat/Long, etc onto an SD card.... what happens in court in NY if a cop estimates my speed "visually" at 75 and I have time/lat long/speed data printout that shows 65? Does a cop's visual estimate still carry more weight than raw scientific proof of actually speed?

BTW: Long story short, my neighbor who is a local cop was pissed at me and decided to write me a ticket for 47 in 25 in the neighborhood. Took the raw data and printouts showing sec by sec to his Captain. My speed varied between 24-27 and the times and GPS (overlayed on google map) corresponded to the time on the ticket. Captain reached over, and took the ticket - said I wouldn't be harassed by this cop or any of his buddies again.
 
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You got to be shtn me... a class to estimate speed. So how does one estimate 65 vs 70 vs 75? Do they have to go back and take recurrent classes? Do they count one Mississippi, two Mississippi as the car goes by?

Somewhere, maybe on these forums, I saw a post by a cop who had a lot of insight. I remember they are tested fairly regularly for their accuracy and it's surprising how accurate they can be. Maybe Oneadam12 can chime in. Still it's disturbing to rely on someone's judgment but this is the law.
 
Somewhere, maybe on these forums, I saw a post by a cop who had a lot of insight. I remember they are tested fairly regularly for their accuracy and it's surprising how accurate they can be. Maybe Oneadam12 can chime in. Still it's disturbing to rely on someone's judgment but this is the law.

I'm trained to fly airplanes, but I have to go back every 6 months for ground school and a checkride in the sim. Then a line check by a checkairman, not to mention the occasional FAA inspector who needs a ride and sits in the cockpit jumpseat for a "line check".

Something tells me that cops don't. Last time I got pulled over, I asked the cop about their driving training and he said that once they leave the academy that's it. No recurrent training, no practice - nada. Skills get rusty.
 
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Bob I'm in Boston. You know... where the real sports teams are.

anyway I have several thoughts in my head.

1) Get my speedometer checked by a mechanic's shop. I was going 65 in a 55. Perhaps it reads 10MPH fast.

2) Argue the fact that I was picked on because of the type of car. Take a picture of the car and show it to the judge so he gets it.

3) Turn it scientific. Go back to the spot and measure everything. Take pictures. Prove my case by lots of facts.

Maybe a combination of these?

I also don't know if I should just go to a lawyer or not. First hearing is always with the magistrate. If I lose, I think the chances usually DECREASE with the judge in charge. If I go alone and win with the magistrate, I will pay nothing. A lawyer will charge me $300 at least and get it reduced to a "driving with faulty equipment". What irritates me is that I was not cited for going 90, 100, etc. 65 in a 55 is just ridiculous.
 
Can't hurt to stand before the magistrate,I have always gotten an improved penalty.The other point being if the penalty does not result in points on your license then a lawyer maybe overkill,but if you are in danger of losing your privilages/accruing points then paying a lawyer who knows personaly the magistrate it is worth every penny.
 
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