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Handling and suspension question

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I have some questions to all of you experienced racers & friends out there.

I want to keep the stock ride height but want better/firmer handling for the turns, what would be my best option?

1)Stock shocks/spring but with Dali street or track sway bars?

2)Aftermarket shocks with stock springs?(Konis are real firm, Bilstein are close to stock feel.)

3)Zanardi shocks/springs? (Zanardi springs barely lowers the ride height but 100% firmer)

My NSX sways a lot in the turns.
Thanx
DAVID
 
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For people that don't have the time to test and adjust, the type R suspension is the best there is.

The next one that I have personally try would be Tein RA.

I've driven so many different setup NSX, except HKS hyper damper and Comptech pro.
 

Edo

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I'd start with just the Aftermarket Sway Bars.
Bang for the buck it is the best handling upgrade you can make.

The Type-R springs and shocks will make your car near un-streetable.
 
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Originally posted by Edo:
I'd start with just the Aftermarket Sway Bars.
Bang for the buck it is the best handling upgrade you can make.

The Type-R springs and shocks will make your car near un-streetable.

I realy disagree with this statement. The type-R springs and shcoks is totally streetable. Dan Tobie has this setup and he can concur.

As far as sway bars. They will reduce body roll, but doesn't necessarily makes the car corner better. With a soft suspension adding sway bar can make the car handle worse. True that it will reduce body roll, thus adding confidence and give false sense that the car handles better. In reality stiffer bars mean both suspension are tied together even more. This can significantly reduce total cornering capacity by both tires. The effect is less the stiffer the spring rate is.

Sway bars should be use for fine tuning/track tuning. It is a great tool to tune understeer/oversteer of the car. Faster than changing springs and it works.
 

Edo

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Not even close.
The Zanardi has the Type-S suspension or something close.
The Type S-Zero has significantly stiffer springs and shocks, and the Type-R has the stiffest springs and shocks by far.

Here are the Type-S and S-Zero specs
Springs for Type-S F: 364lbs/in R 280lbs/in
Springs for Type S-Zero F:448lbs/in R: 336lbs/in
Springs for Type-R F:447lbs/in R: 319lbs/in

The stock NSX coupe spring rates are
F:170lbs and R: 220lbs

Keep in mind, the NSX-R is lighter than the S-Zero so will ride stiffer even though the spring rates are about the same.

I can't find the Shock bump and rebound rates, but suffice to say, the NSX-R suspension is STIFF.


[This message has been edited by Edo (edited 20 March 2002).]
 
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I'm still understanding why adding stiffer sways would be a bad thing for a track car. Why wouldn't keeping as much weight on the inside wheels help? Certainly not arguing, just want a little more info.

And does anyone know the Type R alignment settings off hand?
 
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Originally posted by Andrie Hartanto:
...............

As far as sway bars. They will reduce body roll, but doesn't necessarily makes the car corner better. With a soft suspension adding sway bar can make the car handle worse. True that it will reduce body roll, thus adding confidence and give false sense that the car handles better. In reality stiffer bars mean both suspension are tied together even more. This can significantly reduce total cornering capacity by both tires. The effect is less the stiffer the spring rate is.

Sway bars should be use for fine tuning/track tuning. It is a great tool to tune understeer/oversteer of the car. Faster than changing springs and it works.


Hmmmmmmmmm, maybe that explains why after I put sway bars on my soft oem 98-T suspension my back was getting looser ........... hey, I will use any excuse I can find .....
biggrin.gif
 
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Originally posted by Ponyboy:
I'm still understanding why adding stiffer sways would be a bad thing for a track car. Why wouldn't keeping as much weight on the inside wheels help? Certainly not arguing, just want a little more info.

Independent Rear Suspension has the advantage of each suspension acting independently. By putting sway bars, you are tie-ing both suspension together. The stiffer the bar is, the more you are making the suspension act as solid axle cars.

Putting thicker sway bars don't mean you are keeping as much weight to the inside wheel. In contrary, it is tying both suspension up, thus lifting or reducing the load on the inside tires.
 
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gomaidy,

How many miles do you have on your car? Keep in mind that the stock struts don't last forever. Depending on your mileage and your driving style, yours might be losing their firmness. It might be time to replace yours - regardless of what other mods you may also choose to do.
 
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Eddie --

The NSX-R suspension is not too stiff, and feels very nice for driveability and handling. The Showa dampers attenuate the higher springs rates so well, it doesn't feel as stiff as the numbers suggest. It's near impossible to find, so I wouldn't even consider that an option.

Andrie, while I agree with you on the result of changing sway bars on a level of physics, in the real world, moderately stiffer sway bars make the car easier to judge and increases confidence as you pointed out. I feel this makes the car feel more sporty, and more enjoyable to drive. While it may not be ideal, not everyone has the desire or budget to test and tune with springs. I think what a lot of people look for is a good 'feeling' car not 'maximum cornering speed' car. Is that right or wrong? I'm not sure. I sure was happy with my first NSX a long time ago when I upgraded the sway bars. Made an even bigger difference on the targa NSX because of the softer dampers.

I'm on my 4th set of anti-sway bar combo (more about that later), and am really happy with the balance of the new setup, and am looking forward to more track testing!

-- Chris

------------------


Sign up for the Northwest NSXCA Track Event at Thunderhill:
http://sacramento.nsxca.org/Events/thunderhill_driving_school_4-02.htm

[This message has been edited by ScienceofSpeed (edited 20 March 2002).]
 
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For what its worth I have zanardi springs and koni shocks with sway bars on a 96-t and its not too stiff on the street and nice for track work.Plus this combo means no messing with corner balancing and still allows for some fine tunning via simple knob turning on the shock.Plus zanardi shocks are cheaper than you think.Anyone know who makes them for honda?
 
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I'm loving my TEIN Coil-overs I purchased from Cris @ SOS and install by Mark Basch.
I've always liked the idea of "ajustable" which they definatly do I have them dropped all the way (for asthetic's).They are currently set @ the middle of the range of soft-hard as soon as I get them back I'm gonna test the outside extremes totally soft/hard just out of curiousity.As a daily driver they are firmer than stock but not uncomfortable.Thats my 2 cents..

------------------
 
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Originally posted by Edo:

Here are the Type-S and S-Zero specs
Springs for Type-S F: 364lbs/in R 280lbs/in
Springs for Type S-Zero F:448lbs/in R: 336lbs/in
Springs for Type-R F:447lbs/in R: 319lbs/in

The stock NSX coupe spring rates are
F:170lbs and R: 220lbs

[This message has been edited by Edo (edited 20 March 2002).]

Are you 100% sure about these numbers? I know/agree that on a stock US NSX the front springs are softer than the rear, but how can that be opposite for the R and S cars?
What is the reasoning behind softer springs on the heavier end of the car?
I am currently running Ground Controls with Koni SA's and ~450F ~550R springs and it is working out well.

Thanks,
SM
 
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"By putting sway bars, you are tie-ing both suspension together. The stiffer the bar is, the more you are making the suspension act as solid axle cars."

That makes sense to me. If someone has pretty soft shocks and springs. But if they are firm, the sway bars would be a lot more effective.

"Putting thicker sway bars don't mean you are keeping as much weight to the inside wheel."

It does. That's what every suspension/handling book I've ever read states. Personal skidpad and slalom "tests" (G-Tech Pro) indicate improvement. Much better traction and transition characteristics. A firmer sway bar keeps as much load (traction) as possible on the inside wheel, easing load off of the outside wheel. This helps in getting the best possible traction and not overloading the outside wheel in a corner.

"In contrary, it is tying both suspension up, thus lifting or reducing the load on the inside tires."

In the case of a tight corner, I'd agree. I've seen a lot of front wheel drive cars raise their inside rear wheel b/c of a really firm sway bar. If this is happening in the front and causing a push then I'd think you'd want to soften the bar a hole.

In any event, there are cases for every situation I guess. But I'm still thinking, all other things being equal (what's this phrase in Latin?), that a firmer sway bar will give you better handling. But not too firm!
 
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Originally posted by Ponyboy:
That's what every suspension/handling book I've ever read states. A firmer sway bar keeps as much load (traction) as possible on the inside wheel, easing load off of the outside wheel. This helps in getting the best possible traction and not overloading the outside wheel in a corner.

This is absolutely false. Firmer anti-sway bars actually transfer more weight to the outside wheel. PD doesn't run a rear bar. The only way to reduce weight transfer is to make the car lower, wider, or corner with less acceleration. An anti-sway bar works by applying bending torsion to the chassis and it actually reduces body roll by pushing up the chassis when it is trying to drop. This up force, ever so slightly increases the chasis CG during roll and this increases weight transfer.

This (by itself) implies that a stiffer sway bar would be bad for handling. This can be the case if the suspension is already stiff enough to prevent the dynamic camber from changing too much during a corner (reducing traction). This is where the stock NSX improves significantly with stiffer sways. The stiffer sways keep the tires at improved camber angles.

To sum up. Stiffer sways increase weight transfer (bad), but will help handling by reducing dynamic camber changes if the suspension allows too much roll. They also allow for an easy way to change over/understeer characteristics. On a stock NSX, stiffer sways help.

Bob
 
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Originally posted by 1BADNSX:
This up force, ever so slightly increases the chasis CG during roll and this increases weight transfer.

Increases the center of gravity?
confused.gif
You mean it raises it?
 
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I echo the thoughts of Andrie and Bob. The ideal way to reduce roll is to use stiff springs. However this is not desired on a street car due to consideration for ride comfort. If you have a stock NSX and want to improve the "feel," then sway bars will do wonders. However, the key is using the right size sway bar. NOT TOO BIG. Big is not always better!!!

I would recommend this set-up for street:
NSX Zanardi shocks and springs with NSX-R front bar, and Zanardi rear bar

For track:
TEIN RA, period.

For race:
Ask your wallet.

------------------
G Dummy~

Faster than stock.
:D :D :D
 
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You guys are more correct. And that statement I made was not right. I'm into oversimplyfing things and this was the best way for me to understand the relationship process. I've rethought my suspension "religion." I stand corrected.
 
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Bob, excellent post, but I think your statement of no rear bar on PD's car is misleading. You didn't mention his front bar and he runs a very stiff one. Now before anyone thinks of trying that on their car, that's just the way race going NSXs are usually set up because a rear bar would cause oversteer. The situation is different for us because the front spring rates are never high enough to avoid hitting the bump stops in hard cornering, at which point the effective front spring rate goes up and understeer sets in. Without a rear bar the NSX would understeer at all times.
 
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Originally posted by nsxtasy:
Increases the center of gravity?
confused.gif
You mean it raises it?

Yes, believe it or not. As said earlier, there are only three ways to decrease weight transfer, 1)wider track 2) lower CG or 3) corner with less acceleration. The anti-sway bar generates the force through bending and tranmits this force to the chassis through the attachment points as a net up force (raising the CG slightly during the corner). The higher CG is actually why the stiffer sway bar increases weight transfer.

Bob
 
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Originally posted by docjohn:
For what its worth I have zanardi springs and koni shocks with sway bars on a 96-t and its not too stiff on the street and nice for track work.Plus this combo means no messing with corner balancing and still allows for some fine tunning via simple knob turning on the shock.Plus zanardi shocks are cheaper than you think.Anyone know who makes them for honda?


Has anyone tried the Zanardi dampner with the oem springs on a 97+ T? Or is this pretty much the same as the Bilstein set up given the same rates?

How about adding to this equation Dali Strret/track or Comptech sway bars?

Any reason why this would not be the best of all worlds (70 street/30 track rule)if the Zanardi springs are the cause of the harshness for streetability?

Again, the focus is on a T since there is so much that a T can take before it starts to rattle, shake and roll .........
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