Current suspension thoughts on type s vs bilstein vs kw?

[dwe8922]

I'm fully committed on my nsx project now. I have a '91, and am installing sos supercharger, jdm short gears, type r final drive, sos 350 sport clutch (a little on the fence on this, as my friend's chatters.... Might leave my 35k mile stock clutch in and see how it does....), headers, new style abs kit, etc.

I think my shocks are original. The car feels a little floaty, but I don't see any signs of shock leakage. I split my daily driving with a GT3 and the nsx mostly, and enjoy a GT3 level of stiffness, compliance, and ride quality. I'm thinking of doing the suspension while I have the car all apart. I also have the sos sway bars, and have been advised to use their front and keep the stock rear.

What are current thoughts on suspension choices? From reading the bilsteins give a slightly more athletic ride than stock, and the kw's would be the most gt3 like, and be a better match for the sos sways. I've read that they can be creaky and noisy, and will take a lot of time to dial them in with settings, rake, and ride height. I am decent at setting up compression/rebound settings, but no expert. Type S I've read can be a little harsh....

I don't plan to track the car, I just like a more athletic suspension; not a harsh track car suspension. I want something fun for spirited back roads driving. I club race a gt3 cup car 4-6 races a year.

What do you all think? Thanks!

David

 

[docjohn]

If you want the old school flavor of the nsx as a GT car go with the bilstein...but sounds like you would be better suited to the KW

 

[Honcho]

I think you would really like the Type-S suspension. It's quite comfortable and really firms up the handling without being too harsh on the street. The Type-S is close in concept to the GT3, as it is intended primarily for spirited "winding road" driving instead of the racing circuit. I would recommend using the Type-S sway bars too- as the system was designed and tuned extensively by Honda as a complete set.

I would not recommend the short gears/4.23 for a boosted NSX, since the point of the shorter ratios is to keep the car in the power band on corner exit. With a roots-type supercharger like the SOS, you're going to have plenty of torque available well below those RPM thresholds. The long US gears are well suited to this.

 

[Rainman]

Sakebomb Ohlins. Great ride, quiet, but with type r spring rates. Can’t go very low though.


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[MaxGeek]

I read about noise issues with the KW's as a brand in general (all car makes), however I haven't had any noise issues with mine. With the KW V3 you use the stock top hats so that part of the equation shouldn't be causing any noise. There are also a lot of setting recommendations for them on the forums. They can usually be had for about $2200 or less through a vendor (here or facebook group vendor).

 

[dwe8922]

I got to drive an nsx with supercharger and short gears (stock final drive) and I really liked the closer ratios. I don't have any experience with short gears and type R final drive, but I have driven a good friend's non-supercharged car with 6 speed and 4.23, and liked that. From the wiki, it looks like that is a pretty good comparison to what I'm planning, with the jdm 5 speed w/ 4.23 to the 6 speed w/ 4.23, with the 6 speed 6th gear being more of an overdrive......

What's the current cost roughly to do a type S suspension? Honcho, in one of the old posts you were involved in, there was talk of maybe having to modify things to install the type S suspension, like brake lines? I was thinking it would be more of a plug and play until I read that. I didn't see a conclusion to that though..... I do have the SOS kit to update the abs to the later version as my original began to need bleeding more and more often, but the line mounting to the wheel wells should be the same I would think?

Thanks,

David

 

[Spoolinfool]

Sakebomb Ohlins. Great ride, quiet, but with type r spring rates. Can’t go very low though.


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How does the gt spring rates compare to the type r spring rates on the sakebomb garage offerings ? I plan to daily drive so I'm wondering if the type r spring rates will make driving to work alot more uncomfortable.

 

[docjohn]

street ride "comfort" is coralated with how well the damper controls the spring rate...You can have very stiff springs but great shock/dampers and feel better than a lower rate spring with crappy dampers....

 

[Rainman]

How does the gt spring rates compare to the type r spring rates on the sakebomb garage offerings ? I plan to daily drive so I'm wondering if the type r spring rates will make driving to work alot more uncomfortable.

Sakebomb Ohlins GT spring rates are the same 8k/6k as the type r.
Like docjohn said I find the ride a lot better than stock even though the spring rate is much higher because the dampener is much better. The Ohlins DFV dampener became very popular on the BMW/Porsche forums for its ability to handle high spring rates and also be compliant.

I have to admit I wonder how even more comfortable it would be with stock springs.

Sakebomb can custom build you a set based on your application as well.

 

[Honcho]

I got to drive an nsx with supercharger and short gears (stock final drive) and I really liked the closer ratios. I don't have any experience with short gears and type R final drive, but I have driven a good friend's non-supercharged car with 6 speed and 4.23, and liked that. From the wiki, it looks like that is a pretty good comparison to what I'm planning, with the jdm 5 speed w/ 4.23 to the 6 speed w/ 4.23, with the 6 speed 6th gear being more of an overdrive......

What's the current cost roughly to do a type S suspension? Honcho, in one of the old posts you were involved in, there was talk of maybe having to modify things to install the type S suspension, like brake lines? I was thinking it would be more of a plug and play until I read that. I didn't see a conclusion to that though..... I do have the SOS kit to update the abs to the later version as my original began to need bleeding more and more often, but the line mounting to the wheel wells should be the same I would think?

Thanks,

David

[MENTION=34522]NSX_n00b[/MENTION] just did the Type S so he can probably let you know cost- likely around $2,000 for all the bits. I don't think you need to modify anything on the car to fit the S shocks- they should be plug and play. Honestly, if you are going to go with the KW or Ohlins route, I would choose the JRZ RS One over both of those options. They are a fantastic suspension for the NSX. Just not sure if you are going to need the capability beyond the Type S, which is really, really good.

 

[NSX_n00b]

[MENTION=33784]dwe8922[/MENTION] like [MENTION=18194]Honcho[/MENTION] mentioned I went the Type-S route. Unfortunately you can't buy them as an assembled unit. You have to purchase all the bits and pieces and then assemble them yourself. I purchased all brand new everything for them rather than borrow from my '91 OEM suspension so that added to my cost. But a few of the nuts, the top hats and a few other small pieces are the only interchangeable parts. All said and done I was a little over $2k shipped from Japan for everything. You don't have to change anything else on the car to make them fit, they are plug and play. However, I would recommend getting the Type-S sway bars as well to compliment the suspension. You do have 2 options with the Type-S route too...the '97-'99 version or the 02+ version. The only difference I've been able to find literature on is that the '97-'99 is linear and the '02+ is progressive but I've also seen conflicting reports on that. The P/N for the damper and springs are different though. All in all I love the suspension, yes it was pricey to stay OEM vs going aftermarket with BC or KWV3 but I wanted to stay OEM and give it a shot since it goes along with my build and I don't regret it.

 

[MaxGeek]

Type-S Suspension $2,100
https://www.mitamotorsports.com/1st-gen/zanardi-suspension

 

[dwe8922]

The type S route is interesting to me..... What would you say the stiffness and harshness are compared to stock? Are they non adjustable shocks? What is the ride height compared to stock? I am not looking for a slammed look at all, but rather something slightly lower than stock, but fully functional with no rubbing. Maybe something like 1/2-3/4" lower.

I like the idea of something setup and figured out from the factory that is really good. I've tried to stay all factory outside of the wheels (but went with a factory look) and the supercharger (I got to drive one in advance, and the chassis handled the extra power very well).

Thanks!

 

[NSX_n00b]

The type S route is interesting to me..... What would you say the stiffness and harshness are compared to stock? Are they non adjustable shocks? What is the ride height compared to stock? I am not looking for a slammed look at all, but rather something slightly lower than stock, but fully functional with no rubbing. Maybe something like 1/2-3/4" lower.

I like the idea of something setup and figured out from the factory that is really good. I've tried to stay all factory outside of the wheels (but went with a factory look) and the supercharger (I got to drive one in advance, and the chassis handled the extra power very well).

Thanks!

I was never able to drive my car with OEM 1991 suspension because when I bought it the car came with TEIN suspension. Compared to the TEIN the Type-S is MUCH LESS stiff/harsh. But from all the research I did prior to going the Type-S route I heard plenty of reviews that said the '97-'99 Type-S (same as the Zanardi) suspension is a little more stiff than OEM but not much. The 02+ Type-S suspension is a little stiffer than that but again not much. I'm no race car driver but for my driving purposes I decided I wanted the progressive over the linear so I chose the 02+ Type-S route. Was it a mistake? Only time will tell but I can tell you I LOVE the way the car drives and handles now and I wouldn't change it. I would like to try the '97-'99 version to see if I can feel a difference but the 02+ version paired with the Type-S sway bars is the perfect drive for me out here in Colorado and we have some seriously messed up roads in certain areas.

Both the '97-'99 and 02+ Type-S suspension will give you about a 1/2" drop from OEM ride height. Oh and no they are not adjustable. I should also note that I do all of my driving now on a 16/17 wheel setup. I have the Type-S wheels as well as a set of CE28's in 16/17 so that may play into my comfort/opinion of the suspension.

 

[docjohn]

As an aside the Type R shocks I feel are overdamped but are also slow to respond..making for a harsh ride on most NE roads....Very nice on the track and smooth roads ...I have not driven oem type S..

 

[RYU]

You're going to get several different opinions here. When talking about dampers, the topic (especially on the NSX) always seems to be heavily debated. A few folks on this thread have been around for 10+ years and still... we have differing opinions. During normal times i'd say, go to a local NSX meet and ride in a few cars.

Here's my opinion as per your 3 choices. (For the record, I would not trade my JRZ RS Pro 2-way for anything but a better set of JRZ 3-ways. I honestly have never felt a better felt a better and more well rounded setup for the NSX :biggrin

Type S - I would avoid this because you have better options for the price. However, if you want to keep it loyal to OEM and don't mind a near stock ride height, it will be be slightly sportier than your stock - then again... your stocks are probably worn/blown/old after 30yrs~

Bilsteins - This is a popular "budget" option. It retains the factory springs. Lowers the car slightly. I had this setup for about 1yr but didn't like the tune. Again, this is just my opinion. Its too firm in rebound, not enough compression damping.

KW V3 - Since about 2010 or so (I can't remember exactly when) these have become the "go-to" coilover replacement for the NSX. Part of that is because a popular member here promotes them, but also because they are pretty good value. These don't have quite the adjustability range of a higher end damper (e.g. Penske, JRZ imho) but out of the box they are tuned quite well for the car. This will probably get you closest to a 911 GTS. I'm not sure this is really gets you to GT3 level though.

Keep in mind with higher end dampers, they can be a bitch to tune to get right. So there's that....The community is so small, unlike the Porsche, that there are little to no shared damper settings documented online. Again, KW is probably your best out of the box coilover set but if you want GT3 level, i'd recommend something higher end. Though I know some very very fast guys running on just KW V3s.

All just my $0.02.

 

[RYU]

As an aside the Type R shocks I feel are overdamped but are also slow to respond..making for a harsh ride on most NE roads....Very nice on the track and smooth roads ...I have not driven oem type S..

I've dyno'd the R dampers. Rebound damping is HIGH. I couldn't own them on my LA streets. My teeth would fall out.

Whenever someone mentions NSX-R I always think of my favorite NSX-R video.
https://youtu.be/XcD1To6vsAo

 

[Arkaid]

Agreed; you'll definitely get no shortage of opinions on the topic .

My own 0.02 is that the amount of adjustability on some of the coilovers like JRZ, MCS, TTX etc. can make them overkill for a street-only car, and the relatively thin user base means there's no great "baseline" to start with. I had JRZ RS's and the tunability issue Regan mentioned was a real thing for me; after a year of playing with shock settings I could never find anything I was truly happy with. I ended up going back to an old set of KW V3's I had from a previous car and was surprisingly much more satisfied. Perhaps eventually I'll revisit the JRZs as a longer project when I run out of other stuff to do on the car. But for a street suspension, if you want good build and ride quality along with adjustability, I feel that the KW are hard to beat.

 

[Rainman]

Agreed, high end means lots of time and energy tuning them and like RYU said there just aren’t that many resources available.

If you’re ok with the ride height an all type s setup is a great way to go.

For me it was between the KW V3 and Ohlins DFV, the hard work was already done as both were kits with development time on an NSX. I went Ohlins because of how many BMW/Porsche guys migrated from KW V3 to Ohlins DFV and were happy with the move.

 

[Honcho]

Glad [MENTION=20915]RYU[/MENTION] chimed in here- he has a lot of experience with many of the different aftermarket options. I have the R dampers that he dynoed. My own view is that anything beyond single-adjustable shocks is probably going to cause more problems for the average driver than it solves. Unless you are a pro driver and/or have access to telemetry and a chassis engineer, it's going to be hit-or-miss when it comes to your damper setup. Many drivers will end up making their suspension worse. Thus if someone wants to go the adjustable aftermarket route, I steer them to the single-adjustable JRZ product- they're simply fantastic. Otherwise, my logic is that Honda spent far more testing time and money on the S and R setups than any aftermarket company could ever do. Those setups were tested for months at the Ring, Suzuka and the Takasu proving ground in Hokkaido using Honda house drivers as well as F1 and Super GT drivers from their works teams. It's gonna be really hard to do better than that. An supporting piece of evidence is that Dori Dori himself tried to develop a superior suspension to the R and, even then, with a man who has a lot of seat time behind a NSX, Sachs dampers, custom spring rates, etc. they managed...wait for it.... a whopping 0.058 second advantage around Ebisu Circuit over the R suspension. That to me suggests that Honda knew what they were doing. Thus, I say just get the Type S.

 

[docjohn]

Lol but the honda engineers didn't live in NE Pa....:biggrin:...But the type R suspension with comptech bars is very neutral on track...

 

[Honcho]

Lol but the honda engineers didn't live in NE Pa....:biggrin:...But the type R suspension with comptech bars is very neutral on track...

It's so funny you say that- I've driven 3 NA2 R and 1 NA1 R suspension cars and all of them felt perfectly comfortable to me on the roads. Both in Long Island and Colorado. The NA1 R felt somewhat harsh over road joints, but both types were nothing compared to my Koni yellows. Even on the softest setting, those Konis would knock the fillings out of your teeth! Just goes to show how subjective suspension "harshness" can be.

 

[docjohn]

Part of my cars subjective issues are likely related to the bee being a targa with more perceived nvh related to decrease in chassis stiffness. I thought my pseudo S susp of Z springs and koni yellows was more compliant on the softer rebound settings. I do miss the psychological effects of being able to "tighten" the koni rebound before a track day then soften to drive home...Felt like I was going in to Attack mode:biggrin:

 

[goldNSX]

What are current thoughts on suspension choices? From reading the bilsteins give a slightly more athletic ride than stock, and the kw's would be the most gt3 like, and be a better match for the sos sways. I've read that they can be creaky and noisy, and will take a lot of time to dial them in with settings, rake, and ride height. I am decent at setting up compression/rebound settings, but no expert. Type S I've read can be a little harsh....

I don't plan to track the car, I just like a more athletic suspension; not a harsh track car suspension. I want something fun for spirited back roads driving. I club race a gt3 cup car 4-6 races a year.

I'm referring to the above.

A lot of info has already been mentioned here. Just my 0.02:

- Bilsteins are very good. No regret. Not harsh unless you go lower than their lower perch (highly advise not to go too low anyway). But no adjustability too.
- The OEM Type S suspension is pricy and with no adjustability at all only for an OEM guy. Can't comment on their ride but generally that's a very, very subjective aspect. Honda couldn't justify to invest a lot of time to dial in the Type S suspension, selling only a few hundreds cars. I'm not saying it's bad but they only cook with water either. There are about 15 years of development between Type S and KW and the development task has changed pretty rapidly as soon as 7-post rig became available.
- KW V3: I've just installed a kit a few days ago.
- What has not been mentioned so far: there are two kits: street and track. I'm referring to the street version.
- No regret either so far but didn't drive it enough.
- Noise: better than the first one I had from them 12 years ago. No unusual noises under normal driving conditions. Just a little bit of slight clunking over very harsh bumps once. Easy to live with.
- The lower compression dialing wheel has been improved over the first version and can be adjusted now with the car sitting on the ground (not comfortable but doable).
- But I'm still looking for the comfort level I had with Bilsteins. Compression is nearly at minimum and rebound is in the middle. But that's just me as my preferences have changed significantly over the years due to some problems with my back. Better a soft car than not driving it at all.
- range of adjustability: the KW V3 is easier to dial in than other systems mentioned here (JRZ or track based ones) just because KW DOES limit the range of adjustability intensionally having in mind that not everybody is an expert knowing how to deal with 4-way adjustable systems. The range is still wide enough. Other systems might offer a wider range which is certainly not needed in a street/fun car.

Your goal: spirited back roads driving (GT3 already as a track tool). My advice: leave the Type S, forget the Bilsteins and whatever has been mentioned so far. Just go straight ahead with a KW V3 street setup. Not know by many: there's some 'pinch of Honda salt' built in them because they took over the 7-post rig from the BAR-Honda F1 team back then.

Maybe Öhlins are an alternative but I'd still have to drive one before I'd decide/judge. You'll find more info on tuning the KW than Öhlins. They're said they need to be rebuilt from time to time. The KW won't last forever either due to their complexity while the Bilsteins will last forever (but do they have too? I'd say no).

Hope this helps with your decision (having in mind that your roads are less perfect than mine). Also having in mind that the stock suspension of my daily Civic Type R (2018) outperforms the NSX by far even with a good suspension and can be adjusted within the cabin. But that has to be expected more than 25 years later, no?

 

[dwe8922]

I bought a set of the SOS Sway bars from 2 years ago. I looked on their site to see what diameter they are, but they don't seem to carry them anymore. Are they the same as the old comptech sway bars? I bought them thinking I would go with the KW's, but never got to that step.

On the type S setup, what is the shelf life on something like that. My guess would be that whats available is new old stock, so I'm wondering if they've been sitting for a while, with seal degradation, etc.... Is this an issue? Also I wonder if that shock being made in low quantity will continue to be made when replacement time comes....

Thanks for all the advice.

David