HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience?

[drmanny3]

Has anyone out there used this setup on a OBII car with either a supercharger or turbo? I understand that AEM units do not work that well on OBII cars as the cpu will try and learn around the unit?? I have only heard this and do not have first hand experience. Who out there has used one or the other successfully in an OBII car. If successful what did you do?
Thanks,
Manny

 

[brandonsan]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

Has anyone out there used this setup on a OBII car with either a supercharger or turbo? I understand that AEM units do not work that well on OBII cars as the cpu will try and learn around the unit?? I have only heard this and do not have first hand experience. Who out there has used one or the other successfully in an OBII car. If successful what did you do?
Thanks,
Manny

What are your HP goals ? I am going to use the SOS AEM based EMS on my car. This unit will not be released until the end of the month and I have been assured stock driveability with this unit.

 

[drmanny3]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

I am running about 365 hp with a comptech supercharger (old type). I tend to run lean and wanted the system to work at its best. So really not trying to get a whole bunch of hp, but want it to run properly.
Manny

 

[ken sampson]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

I have a Tec-3 for sale. This was on my 01 SC NSX . The only reason I,m selling is because I cannot find any tuners locally. It supported 511RWHP on my car. I will also have a set of 750CC Rc injectors for sale. Ken

 

[clarknm]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

No experience with the FIC here, but I had the MSL/AEM and the HKS F-Con V-Pro setup on my car. I had no issues with the HKS, drove very much like OEM and I had a navigator to switch between different tunes and monitor the system. The MSL/AEM was a bit more problematic with reading boost levels, but I'm fairly certain that is because I couldn't find a tuner familiar with the MSL/AEM near me. Support for a niche market (tuning) on a niche car is understandably limited.

Bottom line, find a tuner you trust and go with a system they are familiar with--you're in Cali so you are in an advantageous location to start with.

 

[dynomike]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

I have had a obd2 system on the market for years now. It is made using the renown AEM EMS standalone ecu. The way the system works is the stock computer will stay in place to run the drive by wire throttle body and the rest of the car functions "dash abs p/s ect" while the AEM EMS runs the engine. The system does not work like traditional piggyback computers like the FIC or HKS fcon, The AEM EMS drives the fuel injectors and igntion coils directly. You do not have to worry about the stock computer fighting with you on the tuning. This system tunes identically as the obd1 AEM EMS does

I have now made advancements since the first the release of my system back in 04 I now have version two MSL engine Management. Changes from version 1 to version 2 are:

Factory like idle control. Now have cars that run 1000cc injectors with light weight flywheels
new voltage clamp for map to help with high boost applications
The option to run a series 2 AEM EMS
Support for automatic OBD1 Automatic nsx's. obd2 automatic trans support coming soon

here is an article that I did in honda tuning magazine back in 2006

here are some picture of it installed in 98

I am now supporting the option on which AEM system you want. I can either supply you with a series one AEM ecu or a SERIES TWO AEM ECU. Both are going to tune your car identical it is really tuner preference. Some people still like to use the series one boxes because they are tried and true. And some tuners are wanting the series two boxes. I personally still like the series one boxes because they have been flawless for years, where as the series two boxes are still evolving.

OBD1 automatics are now supported as well using this similar system.

Systems are in stock

MSL ENGINE MANAGEMENT system includes:
1. Plug and Play adapter harness. no cutting of any wires

1. AEM EMS that has been modified to work in conjunction with the stock computer

1. Base calibration that has been tuned by me for a 97 nsx with headers+exhaust. calibration makes 15whp over stock.

list Price $2495
I am currently running a special on these systems for $1950+shipping

 

[dynomike]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

here are two cars that I just recently completed using My Engine managment sytem

this is a 97 nsx that was shipped to us from Canada for an engine rebuilt and a CTSC with MSL ENGINE MANAGEMENT. Customer is happy to report that the car drives flawless in sub 0 degree weather. What a lune
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145172&highlight=autowave

This is a 96 nsx that we did a 2.3l whipple Sc with SOS intercooler with MSL Engine Management dyno sheet in post #35
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138029&highlight=autowave

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

I am running about 365 hp with a comptech supercharger (old type). I tend to run lean and wanted the system to work at its best. So really not trying to get a whole bunch of hp, but want it to run properly.
Manny

hi Manny --

The AEM F/IC works perfectly for your setup. We've tuned a large number of NSX with the F/IC with your exact setup. In the past two weeks, we've tuned NSXes with almost identical setups to what you have with the F/IC. The F/IC works with the factory ECU for fuel injection and ignition control of the engine. The way it works is simple - I hope this explanation helps:

The F/IC works in conjunction with the stock ECU by intercepting the output electrical signals from the ECU to the fuel injectors and ignition system. The F/IC then modifies the signal to increase or decrease the length of time the injectors are opened (allowing larger injectors for forced induction applications). The system also has the ability to delay the point (up to approximately 10 degrees) at which the spark plugs fire (to retard ignition timing).

During tuning, closed loop tuning is performed first, then open loop tuning is performed. Closed loop refers to driving conditions like idle, and low load conditions (such as driving on the freeway at steady throttle), where the stock ECU takes inputs from the oxygen sensors. Closed loop tuning with the F/IC requires an OBD2 scanner to monitor short term fuel trims that the factory ECU performs and ideally requires a loading dyno (ie, not a Dynojet or other inertia style dyno). By monitoring short term trims, the tuner can establish fueling to match the air fuel ratios that the factory ECU expects. The goal during closed loop tuning is to make sure that there are no short term fuel trims. By tuning the engine to produce no short term fuel trims, the ECU will not modify it's long term fuel trims (ie. permanent modification to the fuel tables). It's important to know however, that long term trims on the NSX does not affect fueling under positive pressure. The only effect to not tuning closed loop fuel load points properly will be poor drivability.

The next phase is to tune the point at which the factory ECU no longer looks at the oxygen sensors. This is open loop operation, and it happens when the throttle is past a certain point, and the manifold pressure moves from vacuum into positive pressure. Since the stock ECU is no longer looking at the oxygen sensors, a target air fuel ratio can be used that is much richer than what a naturally aspirated engine would see, but is required for a forced induction engine.

The short story is that the F/IC works very well for supercharged applications. We recommend working with tuners that have access to a loading dyno, and ideally have tuned with the F/IC before as it's tuning strategy is slightly different than a stand alone ECU. For more elaborate forced induction systems that are much more dynamic with boost response (such as high performance turbocharged systems) stand alone ECUs offer much finer control. As mentioned, we have a new system about to be released for these users.

Here is the F/IC on our website:
http://scienceofspeed.com/products/engine_performance_products/NSX/AEM/FIC/

Please feel free to drop us a line if you have any questions.

Cheers,
-- Chris

 

[drmanny3]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

Chris, thanks for you input. I had heard but have no real evidence that the OBII tries to learn around the F/IC. I was told that users would have to reset the system (pulling out the fuze so that the ecu would reset) to keep their cars functioning. So is this incorrect? Also with this system does one have to install larger injectors, change out the fuel pump, and the pressure regulator?

Thanks,
Manny

 

[Ric]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

I am running about 365 hp with a comptech supercharger (old type). I tend to run lean and wanted the system to work at its best. So really not trying to get a whole bunch of hp, but want it to run properly.
Manny

how do you know that you are running lean? I also have a low boost old type CT supercharger and I would love to find out.
Thanks.

 

[dynomike]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

Although the AEM FIC does do what Aem intended it to do "modify signals" the stock computer is still giving the primary signal for the engine to run. There has been a couple of problems I have seen over the years with using piggyback systems like this. There have been plenty of piggyback systems over the years that work Identically like the AEM FIC.

Problem one: If an o2 sensor were to become inaccurate making the fuel trims go out of whack you could have serious engine failure result do to over fueling or even worse going to lean.

problem two: While tuning in closed loop operation the car is almost always tuned on a stationary dyno. This can not take real world conditions in to affect.
like the Dyno cell is 70F and weather outside is 20F or vise versa. Actual airflow flowing in to the intake and also in to the engine compartment changing temperatures. The car will have to be tuned on a dyno then also checked as it is driving down the road to make sure these fuel trims are staying in line. If the fuel trims go 5% leaner in closed loop you have just leaned your wide open throttle under full boost 5%

problem three: When tuning Piggyback systems with larger fuel injectors in the closedloop area of the map, the tuning has to be right on the nuts. One problem that you will encounter with larger fuel injectors is that the fuel injectors are not a linear fuel delivery. For example say 1 Millisec of injector duration equals 50cc of fuel and 2millisec of fuel equals 120cc of fuel.
The point that I am trying to get across is tuning closed loop operation for larger fuel injectors can sometimes be very tough and if this is not done 100% perfect "not 99%" you will have problems.

I have experienced erratic hesitation problems while using this system with nsx+ctsc. I think it has to do with the massive amount air from the supercharger the is being introduced to the engine when the throttle is quickly opened while the ecu is transferring from closed loop operation to open loop operation. I spent weeks of time trying to eliminate this lean mis upon acceleration and could never get it to go away. It was very erratic and only happed every now and then. It was not a bad hesitation but it was noticeable, the customer never once reported there was a problem or that he ever felt anything. But as a tuner I noticed this lean mis. Moments of lean mixture can cause brief moments of detonation, which breaks engines.

The AEM FIC is my favorite piggyback computer. I use them on a bunch of off road bikes and sand cars where o2 senors are eliminated or the vehicle does not use them. I personally run one on my turbocharged Yamaha Raptor 700r and love it.
In the end you are putting your engines entire life on two $200 o2 sensors. If these sensors get lazy in any way

although the price point is very good for AEM FIC and can be used to be some what smog compliant, these are the negatives of using this unit that I have seen from my 11 years of experience in tuning after market fuel injection

 

[drmanny3]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

how do you know that you are running lean? I also have a low boost old type CT supercharger and I would love to find out.
Thanks.

I had Auto Wave put the car on the dyno. They told me that it was running lean. They went ahead and upped the pressure on the pressure regulator to about 50 lbs at idle. That helped a lot, insuring that there was more fuel throughout the rev range. They suggested that I have my injectors cleaned. I bought a used set and then had them cleaned and refitted with seals and then swaped on my car. I then took the ones off my car and had them processed. I had a couple that were off by about 4%. That helped the car achieve a better idle and a smoother run up the rev range. I even replaced the coil packs. But it is still running lean. If I get on it I can hear a very slight ping. Tom Rutherford's 97 did the same thing when he got on it. If I run 100 Octane gas the car just seems to fly. I can feel a much stronger car. When Shad back at Comptech put the SC package on he noted that the car seemed to run lean. I then added Comptech headers which probably added to the situation. So that is where I am today. I know that Auto Wave can do there thing and I will have a much more powerful car. I just am not sure that I want to go that route.
Manny

 

[gsrboy]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

I had Auto Wave put the car on the dyno. They told me that it was running lean. They went ahead and upped the pressure on the pressure regulator to about 50 lbs at idle. That helped a lot, insuring that there was more fuel throughout the rev range. They suggested that I have my injectors cleaned. I bought a used set and then had them cleaned and refitted with seals and then swaped on my car. I then took the ones off my car and had them processed. I had a couple that were off by about 4%. That helped the car achieve a better idle and a smoother run up the rev range. I even replaced the coil packs. But it is still running lean. If I get on it I can hear a very slight ping. Tom Rutherford's 97 did the same thing when he got on it. If I run 100 Octane gas the car just seems to fly. I can feel a much stronger car. When Shad back at Comptech put the SC package on he noted that the car seemed to run lean. I then added Comptech headers which probably added to the situation. So that is where I am today. I know that Auto Wave can do there thing and I will have a much more powerful car. I just am not sure that I want to go that route.
Manny

Manny,
Why not go with the aem ems that autowave is offering for the obd2 guys? I am building my car right now and I thank god it is a obd1 just because of the available ems for it. If autowave came out with this earlier I would probably have gotten a 97+ instead. The price might be a bit high, but getting your car running properly is the most important part. I would pay 2,000 to have my car running top notch then worrying about it blowing up or running lean anytime I stepped on it. Thats my opinion but it is always up to you man.


Tuan

 

[drmanny3]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

Manny,
Why not go with the aem ems that autowave is offering for the obd2 guys? I am building my car right now and I thank god it is a obd1 just because of the available ems for it. If autowave came out with this earlier I would probably have gotten a 97+ instead. The price might be a bit high, but getting your car running properly is the most important part. I would pay 2,000 to have my car running top notch then worrying about it blowing up or running lean anytime I stepped on it. Thats my opinion but it is always up to you man.


Tuan

I hear you, however the $2000 is only for the unit. You have to add the tunning, changing out injectors?, fuel pump?, and regulator. Probably could be about $3000 more or less. Not an untidy amount.
Manny

 

[StmpoRaceProducts]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

Here is the F/IC on our website:
http://scienceofspeed.com/products/engine_performance_products/NSX/AEM/FIC/


Cheers,
-- Chris

save 50 bucks and buy your fic here...

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/partdetails/AEM/Fuel/Fuel_Computers//12915

also follow the rules and post links to your products in the vendor section

 

[gsrboy]

Re: HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience????

I hear you, however the $2000 is only for the unit. You have to add the tunning, changing out injectors?, fuel pump?, and regulator. Probably could be about $3000 more or less. Not an untidy amount.
Manny

That is true, but sooner or later you will end up changing out those parts anyways. Why take shortcuts now? It is a nsx nothing is cheap on the car, but you have to pay to play. You also get what you pay for, $3000 +/- for a perfect running NSX is priceless in mind, its much cheaper than a blown motor. The upgrades will also help you out in the future when you want more power.


Tuan

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

hi Mike --

We've verified with OBD2 NSX that short/long term trims do not have an effect on open loop fueling. So, an oxygen sensor failing will not have an effect on open loop fueling.

regards,
-- Chris

 

[Serviceman24]

Hey Manny.... I'm not trying to hijack this thread; however if your interested I have Complete MSL system that I had installed on my 97 for sale in the classified section. This is the same system that Mike mentioned earlier, and was purchased from SOS. A matter of fact, the pictures that Mike included are from my car. Thanks Mike! $1300 shipped!

 

[dynomike]

hi Mike --

We've verified with OBD2 NSX that short/long term trims do not have an effect on open loop fueling. So, an oxygen sensor failing will not have an effect on open loop fueling.

regards,
-- Chris

very interesting Chris. Every car that I have done that has used short term and long term fuel trims has alway used these corrections in open loop conditions such as wide open throttle. The two nsx's I have tried an fic on were very dependent on short term and long term fuel trims. If long term and short term fuel trims were not important than why is there so much emphasis on keeping the fuel trims at 0. If they make no difference than just go into the wide open throttle under boost tuning and forget having to tune for the fuel trims.

The thing that is funny is that out of the couple days I have had this post up I have had 3 different guys call me saying that they are having problems with their FIC just like what I have described. 2 of them had your SOS supercharger setup on them.Some of them have come from reputable tuners here on nsxprime. I would love to be able to sell my customers the AEM FIC solution but i had to stop even tuning them due to erratic hesitations problems.

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

very interesting Chris. Every car that I have done that has used short term and long term fuel trims has alway used these corrections in open loop conditions such as wide open throttle. The two nsx's I have tried an fic on were very dependent on short term and long term fuel trims. If long term and short term fuel trims were not important than why is there so much emphasis on keeping the fuel trims at 0. If they make no difference than just go into the wide open throttle under boost tuning and forget having to tune for the fuel trims.

The thing that is funny is that out of the couple days I have had this post up I have had 3 different guys call me saying that they are having problems with their FIC just like what I have described. 2 of them had your SOS supercharger setup on them.Some of them have come from reputable tuners here on nsxprime. I would love to be able to sell my customers the AEM FIC solution but i had to stop even tuning them due to erratic hesitations problems.

We tested the way the factory ECU controls trims by first tuning the engine to achieve close to zero short and long term trim datalogging AFR in both closed and open loop operation. Then, fueling was modified to produce positive short term trim for a long enough cycle to have the ECU apply these trims to long term. With AFRs again being datalogged there was no difference in AFR in open loop (ie positive pressure) operation.

I think we both agree that tuning the F/IC requires a certain knowledge and approach that may vary from a stand alone.

However, I disagree that "you are putting your engines entire life on two $200 o2 sensors" because our testing does not support that fueling in open loop is affected by trims caused or not caused by a failing sensor. If it was true that trims affect open loop operation it would be no different than a customer running a bone stock Comptech kit with no FIC, and the oxygen sensor failing resulting in engine damage because the ECU applied trims in open loop. If that was the case, there would be lots of damaged engines out there as there have certainly been a number of oxygen failed sensors on older NSX including ones we have replaced.

The hesitation that you're describing I think supports this and it's what we've experience as well - especially from tuners not using loaded dynos where these load points can be isolated and tuned. As the ECU transitions from closed (with trims applied) to open loop (with out trims applied) there is a abrupt AF change than will cause a brief miss.

This F/IC can most certainly be made to work well. I am not saying it's "better" than a stand alone, far from it - but for many applications, including the original poster's Comptech supercharger application where things like drivability, OBD2 compliance, integration to factory controls like TCS, etc. is valued, they work very well. We've tuned a number of cars with the F/IC including Richard's 05 that you are familiar with who was having drivability issues with a stand alone.

-- Chris

 

[dynomike]

So what you are saying is that if you have a -20%value in the long term fuel trim it will have no effect into when it goes in to WOT open loop. It has been a while since I have played with an nsx+FIC. I can tell you that I do a lot of Toyota trucks with similar piggyback system and these vehicle do use the long term fuel trims while in open loop.

The two ctsc nsx's that I have done with fic both had a weird hesitation when the throttle was opened quickly. The weird thing was is that the cars would only do it every now and then. It was not like there was a hole in the mapping it was like the stock computer was using some other kind of fueling strategy or something. Have you ever experienced this before? I know Shad has at DA. Have you expearenced any other problems or quirks with the FIC on the nsx. I have had such bad experiences as well as some of the top tuners out there with piggyback computers like the FIC. I have become very gun shy about using them. I have just never been able to make a car run stock like using them they have always had a weird thing here and there.

as for Richards car I did that car back in early 2005 and never once did he ever complain about drive ability problems. If there was a problem I would have addressed it. how many miles has he put on that thing?

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Yes, that was the result of our testing. I was thinking about this - when you were using the F/IC was it before or after AEM released the Z110 firmware update? This was released ~ 2-3 years ago several things including crank signal filtering. Since the firmware update, the drivability has been dramatically improved.

-- Chris

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

Being one of the first Vendor's to use the F/IC on the NSX, we have tuned dozens of NSX's with the F/IC since 2007.

The F/IC works as well on fire-breating 600WHP turbocharged monsters as it does on a 350WHP BBSC NSX. You can't go wrong for the cost.

*On a side note*
I highly recommend you have a qualified tuner experienced in the F/IC and the NSX perform the tuning.

 

[dynomike]

Yes, that was the result of our testing. I was thinking about this - when you were using the F/IC was it before or after AEM released the Z110 firmware update? This was released ~ 2-3 years ago several things including crank signal filtering. Since the firmware update, the drivability has been dramatically improved.

-- Chris

Yes I was using the z110 fueling strategy. So out of all the cars you have done You to Cody there is never anything at all that has been weird. All the cars that you guys have done have all started and driven like completely stock cars. There is never anything weird from time to time in the drive ability area. Making power is easy at wot with the fic but how about everything out of WOT?

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

Mike,

The only issues I have encountered were due to factors other than the F/IC, such has harness/wiring issues, or issues with the vehicle itself. I have been able to correct any issue I've had to the point of factory drivability.

Can you share your issues?

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