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Honda falling out of favor w/the FF crowd?

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http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0325hondacivic25-ON.html

Sales of Honda Civics slip as customizers move on

Sholnn Freeman
Wall Street Journal
Mar. 25, 2004 10:36 AM

For 20 years, the Honda Civic was the favorite ride of young, California car enthusiasts like Anthony Luna. But not anymore, and that's a problem for Honda Motor Co.

Mr. Luna's tricked-out Honda Civic has won him ribbons and trophies, free goodies from dealers and lots of attention. But Mr. Luna, a 22-year-old computer technician in Ceres, Calif., replaced his Civic in November with a more powerful Nissan 240 SX from 1992. "I outgrew it," he says of the Honda. "Most of the people are moving to all the different brands."

Beginning in the early 1980s, Civics, often used ones, were highly prized among young car customizers - or "tuners" - like Mr. Luna. Souping up their cars with chrome wheels and high-performance engine and suspension parts, the tuners are a small part of the U.S. car-buying public. But they helped keep the Civic hip, which allowed Honda to sustain strong Civic sales without factory-to-consumer discounts. Now, Civic sales have been slowing, and signs that Honda is losing its status among young drivers are stirring Honda's conservative product planners to act.

Tom Elliott, Honda executive vice president of U.S. operations, says the Japanese company plans to introduce a new car next year to counter a growing number of rivals in the tuners' segment of the market. This new car would join the boxy Honda Element compact SUV, launched in 2002. The Element has outperformed Honda's sales expectations - but largely because it has been a hit with baby boomers. "The Civic, the Element - none of these are our last efforts at trying to attract younger buyers," says Mr. Elliott.

Mr. Elliott didn't offer many details, but he said the new car will likely be priced below the Civic, which starts just under $15,000. The new car will give Honda a vehicle to battle the rise of Toyota Motor Corp.'s Scion youth-car brand, which it plans to expand nationally this year. "There's no question that competition in that segment is getting stronger and more numerous," Mr. Elliott says.

For Honda, rejuvenating the image of the Civic is a critical challenge. The Civic is Honda's second-best-selling model in the U.S. (the Accord is Honda's No. 1 U.S. seller), with annual sales of about 300,000. The Civic is the first Honda many customers buy. But Civic's U.S. sales fell 4.3 percent last year, underperforming the overall U.S. small-car segment, which declined just 2.8 percent compared with the prior year. And data compiled by J.D. Power & Associates's PIN Information Network show that 20 percent of Civic buyers were 25 years old or younger last year, down from 26 percent in 1998.

In a rare concession to sales weakness, Honda recently began offering $400 factory-to-dealer discounts on the Civic. Honda's average rebate per Civic in February was $1,403, compared with $971 a year ago, according to Autodata Corp. That's still far below the $2,906 industry average for the month.

For years, Honda kept a hands-off attitude to the Civic customizing craze, generally avoiding a direct marketing appeal to young enthusiasts, a group sometimes referred to in the industry as "the fast and furious," after a movie with that title that celebrated the import-car street-racing culture.

In 2001, Honda redesigned the Civic and made it more family-friendly and sedate, which in turn left the tuners feeling slighted. Last summer, at an import-racing event in Irwindale, Calif., the crowd booed when the announcer mentioned Honda.

"We got turned off to Honda because they are not interested in their youth market," says Edgar Aguilar, a 23-year-old student in Modesto, Calif., who joined in the booing.

"They're taking steps backward instead of forward," says Mr. Aguilar, who replaced his Acura Integra GSR with a Subaru WRX. "Every Honda and Acura owner is ready to get out of their Hondas and into something else."

One big problem for Honda is that there are many more alternatives for disillusioned Civic enthusiasts than in the past. A big winner at Honda's expense has been Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd.'s Subaru. Young buyers who want power can chose the WRX, which has a cult following from videogames and European rally racing. To meet demand, Subaru has doubled production of the super-fast, 300-horsepower STi version of the WRX.

Nissan Motor Co. and Toyota also are offering sportier versions of their entry-level cars, the Nissan Sentra and the Toyota Corolla. The rise of drift-racing, in which participants slide cars sideways around sharp turns, has led some tuners to adopt 10-year-old rear-wheel-drive models from Nissan in place of Civics.

Detroit's Big Three are moving in on the Civic, too. DaimlerChrysler AG's Dodge Division now offers a 230-horsepower SRT-4 Neon. General Motors Corp. is planning a tuner-friendly version of its upcoming Cobalt small car.

Ford Motor Co. continues to dabble in the market with the Focus. Last year, Ford offered a souped-up Focus through its Specialty Vehicle Team (SVT) brand. While that model is scheduled to be phased out, Ford is looking at other options for offering higher-performance Focus models.

The threat to Honda's Civic from Toyota's Scion, which launched its first two models in California last year, will intensify this year when the brand expands nationally with a sporty hatchback called the tC.

It's enough to make a Honda dealer nostalgic. When the Civic was a tuner's car of choice, "other auto makers were envious," says David Conant, a big Honda dealer in Southern California. Now, he says, "they've got their toe in the door, and they are going to kick it wide open."
 
That sounds about right.

Not really just the FF crowd ~ but the critical 18-25yr old market in general. That Civic Si just isn't it cutting it. :rolleyes:
 
Considering the 'customizer' market accounts for likely less than 1% of sales of any economy model car I can't believe this actually made it into the wall street journal. That's pure BS.

Sporty versions of low model cars are important, but really have no real impact on the bottom line. And I find it laughable that they actually mention the WRX and civic in come sort of comparison like they are even in the same class of car.
 
The 2002 - 05 Civic Si is one of the worst cars Honda has ever made IMO. I had a 2000 Si and it was great. 8000 RPM, sporty looking... fun to drive... then the new car arrived. It was UGLY as hell, slower, lower redline and more expensive. It even comes with 15" wheels!

The 2004 is so far behind its competition. It needs the 200HP I4 from the RSX to compete. I think they should just scrap it and start over with a coupe again.

Nothing will compete with the NEON SRT-4 in that segment because of how much power it is making. However, that car is ulgy too, it doesn't handle very well, has wheel hop and tq steer and it is too loud. Plus, at the end of the day, you are still driving a neon..

Nonetheless the difference between a 17K Civic Si and a 25K WRX is pretty substantial price was. A lot of 18 y/o can afford 17K for a car, but 25K is a lot more money.. I doubt too many can make that leap very easily..
 
FF Drifter said:
That Civic Si just isn't it cutting it. :rolleyes:
Exactly. Honda needs to bring over the Civic Type R to sell more cars or at least bring up their image a bit since young buyers are flocking to other makes for more performance for their money. If Honda still thinks its cars are the standard of import hot rods they are sadly mistaken. I admire Honda for staying away from turbos, but the bang for the buck (bragging rights) is clearly with other cars in that class.

I think the Type R will sell well here, just as WRX and Evo are. Heck, even a 30 year old geezer like me would buy one!
 
Honda

Unfortunately, Honda has no lineup that would make one sream.
1.Civic - less hp than $10000 entry level car from Suzuki.
2. Accord - as boring as Camry
3. Element - good looking if you are blind
4. CRV - ugly as hell, too much plastic inside and out.
5. S2000 - made for people who shop in Kids R Us for clothing. Not made for the size of average American.
6. Odyssey - who cares it is a mini van.

I have had several Hondas and in the early 80's it was a car worth having, now.... even Nissan is making cheaper and better cars. Sad.
 
The import scene in oz has always seen a base old second hand honda as a first or second project car, as better jobs came along we would move up the scale in the most wanted to modify cars list, usually more expensive and with a turbo attached.
 
I am a Honda nut, and after my turbo GSR, I actually thought of getting the RSX for a second, but then the EVO, STi, WRX, heck even 4 doors like the G35 Altima etc had near NSX level bhp. Honda did give up on the tuner crowd by NOT having a CTR or ITR ready immediately with the new cars. Killing the double wishbone front suspension turned many loyalist off right off the bat.

I hope that they turn it around soon! Acura seems to be going in the right direction but Honda is leaving the performance lacking other than the S2K and 2 door Accord.
 
We got turned off to Honda because they are not interested in their youth market
What the heck does that mean, not interested in their youth market? Has Honda committed some cardinal sin against its 16-25 y.o. demographic? Guess there haven't been enough "SE-R"s and "R-spec" and yada yada yada models. I thought the whole idea was to customize the car?? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe that's why I don't understand the popularity of cars like the Mazda Protege MP3 or the Nissan Sentra V-Spec. If you want a unique car, you have to make it unique yourself -- you can't buy it at the dealership that way.

Honda continues to do what they have always done -- built an exceptionally well-engineered, reliable, ergonomic and comfortable car and the only real knock is that the styling is questionable. I suspect its just gotten passe to modify a Civic because that was all the rage 5 years ago.
 
the article also ignores the fact that people are still doing heavy mods on Honda's that are over 10 years old. So when people say a 2002 or 2003 model isn't what the market was looking for...what the hell does that mean? The only reason car modification got to where it was is due to 10+ years of building a base and community to do this stuff. Brand new cars that are going to be modified are only for the rich kids that don't know what they're doing and just want to slap some shit on and think they're cool. The real grassroots modifiers will always be dealing with cars that are over 5-10 years old where they are cheap enough you can buy them and start swapping motors and messing stuff up.
 
Re: Re: Honda

Joel said:
I'm a big guy and I fit real nice in the S2K with room to spare.

Well, I do not and most of my friends have hard time placing their knees next to their chins to fit in it as well.

:confused:
 
The real grassroots modifiers will always be dealing with cars that are over 5-10 years old where they are cheap enough you can buy them and start swapping motors and messing stuff up.

very true. Mainly 'cos when they started the funds are available and you take what you can get. (In my experience)
 
ajnsx said:
very true. Mainly 'cos when they started the funds are available and you take what you can get. (In my experience)

Yes that is true but what happens when that 18-21 year old turns into the 22-26 year old and has a little more money to spend now that he/she is out of college etc and has a decent paying job. They have become accustomed to having a certain level or performance per dollar and now that they can afford to go out and buy a new car, they want something (performance) for their money. Right now, Honda doesn't have anything that fits that bill. S2000 is likely too expensive for that fresh out of school entry level person and the current Si is rather lacking in performance. Honda needs the Civic Type R over here but they won't because it will outperform the current RSX S and that would be bad for the RSX. IMO however, they would sell the CTR like hotcakes if it was available unchanged from the JDM version. Same with the Integra R. Brand loyalty plays a big role in why Honda needs an affordable and excellent performing (for the money) entry level type vehicle. If Honda can get buyers to buy Honda young and keep them happy, they are more likely to continue to by Honda as they get older and their needs and wants (and income!) change.
 
Yes that is true but what happens when that 18-21 year old turns into the 22-26 year old and has a little more money to spend now that he/she is out of college etc and has a decent paying job. They have become accustomed to having a certain level or performance per dollar and now that they can afford to go out and buy a new car, they want something (performance) for their money.

i mentioned this in my earlier post :)

The import scene in oz has always seen a base old second hand honda as a first or second project car, as better jobs came along we would move up the scale in the most wanted to modify cars list, usually more expensive and with a turbo attached.
 
I don't want to get into a debate here, but the comments about Kid's are us size and fitment inside the s2000 are simply wrong.

I own an nsx and an s2000 and am over 6 foot tall. the s2000 is suprisingly roomy. If you don't believe me, go drive one. For example i have 2 inches of additional headroom with the s2000 compared to the nsx. Also the room in the seat (side to side) footroom and space to the steering wheel are comparible in the s. The s2000's windshield is straight up and down compared to the nsx, so their is a lot more room above the dashboard on the nsx, but this isn't usable space. in some cases (ie headroom) the s actually has more space.

What is amazes me is the s uses stamped steel for the suspension (versus aluminum on the x) and steel for the body (except hood) (again the x is aluminum) yet the s is 250 pounds lighter then the x. Now someone is going to tell me that this is because the s is smaller then the x, well they are surprisingly very close in size. Anyway it amazes me that the x isn't closer in weight due to it's construction, but i can tell you that several components (eg the abs pump) have improved while getting much smaller in the S.
 
Some factors that favor the S2K's weight over the NSX:
- 2/3 engine size
- 12in. shorter (174.2 v 162.2)
- 2.5 in. thinner (71.3 v 68.9)
- These dimensions mean the S2K has 11% less top-down area. I realize weight is not exactly proportional to area but 11% of 3100 lbs is 335 lbs.
 
I think everyone else here agrees that Honda's line up of performance cars is lack luster. But it seems evident to me that they are shifting that market to there Acura brand. I mean, almost every model has a Type-S varient. Maybe Honda is trying to grow with those consumers from 5 years ago who had tuned Civics and realize that they are older now and do have more money to spend so they are trying to upsell them into an Acura. It does seem the focus is being shifted from the entry level auto buyer to the intermediate auto buyer.
 
NetViper:

Have you driven an SRT-4? Those things can handle and the new ones come with a Quaiffe LSD and 20 more HP!

There was a C&D article a while back that covered the one lap of America - the SRT-4 beat every car in its class embarrassing the AWD WRX - even in the wet.

The SRT-4 even beat a third of the cars in the top class that included Vipers, Vettes, etc. The SRT-4 had $1000 in mods for shocks and an LSD (the same one that is now standard).

If you take your NSX on a road course, I would keep an eye out for the SRT-4's.
 
CokerRat said:
Some factors that favor the S2K's weight over the NSX:
- 2/3 engine size
- 12in. shorter (174.2 v 162.2)
- 2.5 in. thinner (71.3 v 68.9)
- These dimensions mean the S2K has 11% less top-down area. I realize weight is not exactly proportional to area but 11% of 3100 lbs is 335 lbs.

Also the S2K doesnt have a metal roof like the NSX does.
 
The Article Above said:
Tom Elliott, Honda executive vice president of U.S. operations, says the Japanese company plans to introduce a new car next year to counter a growing number of rivals in the tuners' segment of the market.

I wonder if the new car they are talking about is the '06 civic?
06si1.jpg

06si4.jpg


Article on the 200hp Si.

There are some pretty good turbo options for the RSX-S, and I like the S2000/TL but aside from that I am not at all interested in the newer Honda products anymore.
Maxima > Accord
4Runner > Pilot
Shopping cart > Element
etc..
 
I am one of the people that the article talks about. Starting when I was about 18 I bled Honda. At one point our driveway held my CRX Daily, My wife's Civic daily, and my Civic race car. I transitioned my mother in law from a long line of Tauruses into an Accord owner with my constant praise for the brand. I got my folks into a Civic. They had me until around '01. Two things happened in the last few years though - First off, a lot of good competition hit the market. Second, and most importantly, they shat upon the enthusiasts. They replaced the longtime favorites (integra and civic) with over weight, underpowered, ill handleing, strut wearing blandness. At least they got the look right with the RSX. The 7G Civic Si OTOH looks like an ugly version of a 2/3 scale Oddysey. They refuse to bring over a Type R variant of either car. Hell - the only attempt they made to even acknowledge the enthusiasts was some lame ass, over priced wheel, tire, and bodykit package who's only net effect was to reinforce how out of the loop they really are.

Now I'm 29. Married, no kids, decent living, yada, yada. Honda has nothing in the showrooms that interests me. I wouldn't be seen in the 7G civic. I'm not willing to trade double wishbone for McStrut, so the RSX is out. The S2000 is kinda neat, but the Miata is better and cheaper. I'm not in a position to buy a new NSX, but no way in hell would I drop $90K on a car that looks 95% the same as it's used $20K equivalent. When we replaced my wife's '94 Civic it was because she wanted a midsize. We tried out the Accord, Camry, and Maxima. The Accord and Camry were both fine cars, but they were nothing special. They were appliances. They will get you from A to B with minimal intrusion for the next 300K miles. This all well and good, except that the Maxima will do the same thing while offering legitimately good acceleration and aggressive styling. We ended up in the Maxima. The Accord Hybrid is a cool concept, but it still built on the platform of an appliance.

I hope that they make the concept that is pictured above. If they can offer a $22K, 200 HP Civic with 17's or 18's, 5 Lug, Brembos, good seats, nice styling, and sub-2500#, then they've got a winner. I fear that the production car ends up being an uglified version of the concept, with 15" wheels and 60 series tires, the 160 HP engine, normal brakes, normal seats, and it will weigh close to 3000#. I hope I'm wrong.
 
For 20 years, the Honda Civic was the favorite ride of young, California car enthusiasts like Anthony Luna. But not anymore, and that's a problem for Honda Motor Co.

Beginning in the early 1980s, Civics, often used ones, were highly prized among young car customizers - or "tuners" - like Mr. Luna.
Hmmm, I don't know about this. I think the author of this article is giving Honda a little too much history with the tuner crowd to underscore Honda's "dilema". When I was a teenager in the early to mid 1980s, no one in SoCal even considered Hondas to customize. We all worked on RWD cars like Zs, Supra, Celicas, 510s, and RX-7s. Heck, I bought my Integra in 1988 to get away from the "customization" crowd. Not until later year 2nd generation Integras was there a proliferation of parts.

-Randy
 
Word at HAM is that they need to embrace the tuner crowd, but that is still wrong. All they need to do is understand that building a solid car with mildly aggressive characteristics leaves the door open for the tuner crowd to step in. If you actively seek tuners, they will become put off by big-corporations' attempt to sucker them in. Tuners want to be a minority, special, and different from the norm. No true tuner wants a car to come pumped up from the factory, or have that as a factory option. The goal for a tuner is, "look what I can do with this econo box!" That doesn't work well when the box looks like crap, weighs a ton, requires a suspension over haul, and has the cats sitting off the engine block as if they were the headers.

The big wigs at Honda are now bean counters. There is no more "power of dreaming".
 
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