Honda works on successor to NSX

[sstarkey]

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110425/OEM03/304259945/1117

SHANGHAI -- Honda Motor Co. President Takanobu Ito says his company is developing a sports car that will be the spiritual successor to the discontinued Acura NSX.

But in tune with the times, the new car won't feature the brute V-10 engine that had been envisioned for the next NSX. That vision was scrapped in 2008 during the global financial crisis.

Speaking to reporters at the Shanghai auto show, Ito said the car would be exhilarating to drive but also environmentally friendly: "That's the kind of sports car we want to make."

Ito did not give details of the sports car or a timeline for its launch. The vehicle is expected to use an electric drivetrain to give the gasoline engine a boost, a Honda spokesman said. The car will be positioned as a high-performance counterpart to the two-seat Honda CR-Z sporty hybrid.

"We are working very hard on it," Ito said.

Ito's predecessor Takeo Fukui killed plans for an NSX replacement as one of several cost-saving cutbacks.

That version of the NSX was expected to have a front-mounted V-10 engine turning out at least 500 hp. It would have followed the first-generation NSX, which had a mid-mounted V-6. That NSX went out of production in late 2005 after 14 years.

 

[Honcho]

Repost.

Ito using the words "spiritual successor" means that (1) it will not be mid engine; and (2) it will not be called NSX. The Japanese choose their words very carefully. Ito is telling us that the new sports car will be a front-engine GT car using the hybrid drive tech from the CR-Z, albeit on a bigger scale. About the only relationship it will have to our NSX is similar performance numbers.

Given the amount of R&D that went into the HSV chassis, I think we might see that platform with the IMA Hybrid V6 instead of the V10. This would seem like a cost-effective and relatively quick way for Honda to get back into the sports car game. It would also allow Honda to keep racing the HSV in Super GT, since they could argue the car is now in production, albeit with a totally different powertrain. The other option is a lightened, shortened 2-seat version of the TL/Accord SH-AWD platform with said IMA V6. Either version will be fast, but it won't be an NSX.

 

[Honcho]

Since Honda has rejected the idea of competing in the ultra-high exotic product space, what does the market landscape look like for the "spiritual successor"? Quite frankly, not so good. In fact, the new car will have to compete in the brutal $50,000 to $90,000 premium sports car segment, where the customer has a ton of options. One of the reasons the NSX was so successful was that it was an incredible value. In 1990, you could buy a NSX for $60,000 and it handily outclassed the few competing products from Porsche and Ferrari costing much more. That made the NSX truly a game changer. Today, I argue that role has been assumed by the Corvette. GM did a masterful job copying Honda's model and was ultimately much more successul. Today, the Corvette has a solid racing pedigree, phenomenal performance and a loyal following of regular/repeat customers. Honda never quite accomplished that feat.

What is clear even at these early stages is that the "spiritual successor" will not be a game changer. Corvette has assumed the NSX's old role of extreme value for the dollar. Let's look at the competition in the marketplace today, shopping as if we were the average consumer looking at the typical bench-racing stats:

Porsche 911 Carerra MSRP: $77,800
345 hp
0-60: 4.7 sec

Porsche Cayman S MSRP: $62,100
320 hp
0-60: 4.9 sec

Audi TTS Coupe MSRP: $50,090
265 hp
0-60: 4.9 sec

BMW M3 E90/92 MSRP: $58,900
414 hp
0-60: 3.9 sec

Nissan GT-R MSRP: $84,060
485 hp
0-60: 3.5 sec

Chevrolet Corvette Z06 MSRP: $74,305
505 hp
0-60: 3.6 sec

Cadillac CTS-V Coupe MSRP: $63,465
556 hp
0-60: 3.9 sec

Mercedes SLK55 AMG MSRP: $66,650
355 hp
0-60: 4.9 sec

Looking at the options above, does Honda really think people are going to choose the Acura? In this group you have the M3, which has been called the greatest car ever by more than a few people. You also have the Z06, which as mentioned usurped the NSX as the standard bearer for performance and value. And you've got Godzilla in there for the JDM fanboyz. After looking at this list, I can understand Honda's hesitation about getting back in this bloodbath of a market. What exactly about the new car is going to make the customer choose Acura? The hybrid? Really? For people shopping these cars, hybrid drive is not at the top of the desire list. If this is the issue on which Honda is going to stake its position, I fear it will end in failure. The "spiritual successor" will be just another front-engine sports car in a sea of excellent options.

This is my argument for mid-engine. The reason a MR NSX could compete in this market segment is that it offers something unique. Only the two Porsche products can be had at this price point with the engine behind the driver. If Honda could outdo the Cayman S/R in terms of performance while offering MR and the build quality of an Acura, then I think they would be in a position to sell some cars. They might even get away with calling it NSX.

 

[sstarkey]

This is my argument for mid-engine. The reason a MR NSX could compete in this market segment is that it offers something unique. Only the two Porsche products can be had at this price point with the engine behind the driver. If Honda could outdo the Cayman S/R in terms of performance while offering MR and the build quality of an Acura, then I think they would be in a position to sell some cars. They might even get away with calling it NSX.

The Lotus Evora and Evora S seem to fill the gap you are talking about.

I agree. Honda must do more than IMA SHAWD to make the car unique.

 

[Juice]

Honcho, get out of my head. I swear you are the only other person on these boards who has thought this out the same way I have. Cheers.

 

[goa360]

There is always competition and if Honda does not try this then they may not have a good chance to win the market back in this area, which was lost a while ago. I am sure they are smarter to decide and Honda seems like taking a very conservative approach and testing waters. I go into Acura/Honda show room....feel nothing.

I am more curious about what Hyundai got more than Honda now a days.

 

[Silver F16]

This news is nothing more than recycled Bull Shit from Honda.

Every new CEO comes in and wants to do this and that with the new NSX. Some where along the development, they get derailed and come up with one excuse after another. When challenges arise, they weasel out instead of stepping up.

Ito - Do you have the leadership and determination to make a vehicle worthy enough to be called an NSX successor

 

[Caustic]

There is always competition and if Honda does not try this then they may not have a good chance to win the market back in this area, which was lost a while ago.

I don't mean to bash you goa but I see a lot of people on this site say the same thing, and it just isn't true.

Honda NEVER had a market in this area. And please don't say the NSX did, as others have mentioned, the NSX was an anomaly and never sold well. The only japanese automaker that ever had a sports car market has been Nissan/Datsun. They have had a dedicated sports car for decades in the Z and the GT-R that can trace lineage to the early 70s, and the SP series (Z predecessor) in the 60s.

 

[Honcho]

Honcho, get out of my head. I swear you are the only other person on these boards who has thought this out the same way I have. Cheers.

Lol. I just tried to think it through and started typing! I have to be honest here- the more I think about a new Honda super sports car the more I think maybe that subject is best left tabled. I don't think Honda is going to be able to compete in the $50k to $90k segment and their efforts may be better spent on a $30,000 hybrid sports car to compete with the 370Z, Mustang, etc. Basically a super CR-Z. I think they have a lot better chance there than going against the M3.

I guess what I really want is just a freshening of my existing NSX. I don't think Honda can realistically and/or economically improve on the NSX- they are never going to spend that kind of development money again. With this in mind, maybe we are better served with a "freshening" program for our NA1 and NA2 cars. Think about it- if Honda came to you and said, "what would you like to improve on your NSX", what would you say? There will always be the crazies (who probably bought a $15k salvage 1991 upgrading from a Civic) saying things like turbo V12 or 20" wheels. Instead, I'm talking about owners who can afford the car and are willing to spend actual $ to update and upgrade the car. If I were asked what I would be willing to spend my $ on, I would answer:

1. Brakes. Give me a monoblock kit like the Stoptech, except it is OEM Honda and says "Acura" on the caliper. Also offer the 2001 ABS upgrade for a normal price, not the present insanity.

2. Gauge cluster. It would be nice to have modern LED-based guages like the ones in my 2009 RDX. I like the new look, layout and font.

3. A/V. A complete refresh of the center console would be great. Navi, MP3 and controls, all sourced from existing models but laid out by Honda to factory fit the NSX. No more cutting the dash and klugeing wire harnesses.

4. "Type S" and "NSX-R" chassis programs. Factory will perform weight reduction, body reinforcement and suspension upgrade to S or R standard.

5. Body refresh. Kind of similar to the Japan refresh program. Basically a factory inspection and replacement of any worn pieces, which are mostly the rubber bits and seals around the car. Maybe an option for JDM paint colors?

6. NA3 powertrain upgrade. Bring the NSX into the 21st century. Factory-trained and selected techs hand-assemble purpose-built motors at the Anna, OH engine plant. Much like the NSX-R, each engine is assembled by one person, who balances and blueprints each unit. Start with a J37A4 from the TL-S and add tube headers, lightweight forged rods, lightweight pistons, more aggressive VTEC cam lift and timing, ported and polished heads, sodium filled valves, stiffer valve springs and high pressure oil pump. Program new ECU for 8300 rpm operation. Option for 6-speed upgrade or 5-speed short gear upgrade if customer chooses. Ford and GM have great factory performance centers doing just this sort of thing. You can buy hand built crate motors from Ford Racing, why can't Honda do it for NSX customers?

7. Track package. Dry sump or semi-dry sump oil system. Passenger intake oil cooler. Factory harness bar. Extra chassis bracing. Racing pedals. Short shift kit. More extreme weight reduction.

The way I see it working is you can take your NSX to any Acura or Honda dealer. They give you a brochure with all of the different options and you check off which ones you want. They ship your car to the big plant in Marysville, OH, where a select group of techs works on your refresh. If you pick the NA3 update, the Anna plant builds and ships the new engine and the Marysville folks install it. You pick up your pretty much brand new NSX at the dealer and love it for another 20 years. The recent 2011 Sports Modulo NSX inspired me to think this way. If Honda keeps trotting out the NSX in this way, why not take them up on the idea?

 

[dquarasr2]

We have to face it. The automotive landscape has changed dramatically in the last few years, and continues to do so.

I must admit as a Baby Boomer I can't wrap my head around cars having anything but internal combustion engines. In the last few months I've had to stop flipping past the articles in Autoweek and Car and Driver (yes, the old-fashioned printed page, mind you) devoted to hybrids and pure electrics, and actually stop and grudgingly force myself to read them.

I think Honda is just looking at the future, and with good reason. I know it tends to be cyclic, but here we go again with $4 gasoline, with predictions for $6 by summer. And look at what's out there now: Porsche has the 918. Tesla's sports car is a pretty cool piece. Volt is no longer a pipe dream. Most manufacturers are producing hybrids. Hell, there's even a hybrid 911 race car. Why not a green sports car? Maybe "CR-Z-PLUS" is indeed a good idea for the time?

I bet even Ferrari leverages KERS soon on its street cars.

In spite of Z06's, M3's, Boss Mustangs, Hemi Challengers, etc., I really don't think we'll ever see another NSX. The automotive landscape does not support it right now, at least not in Honda's crystal ball. Maybe the wave of the future is indeed paved in green, and Honda is just trying to guess correctly.

 

[Midnight_Raven]

I was wondering why are people so against the next car being called an NSX if it's not mid engine rear drive? If you all remember the acronym that the NSX stands for is New Sportscar eXperimental... the NSX is a experimental showcase of what Honda can do. If the next NSX is a hybrid sportscar then the NSX is actually a "very" fitting name for it.

 

[XSNSXTC]

We have to face it. The automotive landscape has changed dramatically in the last few years, and continues to do so.

I must admit as a Baby Boomer I can't wrap my head around cars having anything but internal combustion engines. In the last few months I've had to stop flipping past the articles in Autoweek and Car and Driver (yes, the old-fashioned printed page, mind you) devoted to hybrids and pure electrics, and actually stop and grudgingly force myself to read them.

I think Honda is just looking at the future, and with good reason. I know it tends to be cyclic, but here we go again with $4 gasoline, with predictions for $6 by summer. And look at what's out there now: Porsche has the 918. Tesla's sports car is a pretty cool piece. Volt is no longer a pipe dream. Most manufacturers are producing hybrids. Hell, there's even a hybrid 911 race car. Why not a green sports car? Maybe "CR-Z-PLUS" is indeed a good idea for the time?

I bet even Ferrari leverages KERS soon on its street cars.

In spite of Z06's, M3's, Boss Mustangs, Hemi Challengers, etc., I really don't think we'll ever see another NSX. The automotive landscape does not support it right now, at least not in Honda's crystal ball. Maybe the wave of the future is indeed paved in green, and Honda is just trying to guess correctly.

Good post.

 

[Juice]

I was wondering why are people so against the next car being called an NSX if it's not mid engine rear drive? If you all remember the acronym that the NSX stands for is New Sportscar eXperimental... the NSX is a experimental showcase of what Honda can do. If the next NSX is a hybrid sportscar then the NSX is actually a "very" fitting name for it.

I hadn't thought of it that way. You have an excellent point actually. I guess for me, the allure of the NSX had a lot to do with its MR layout; it's just more exotic.

 

[lightguy]

Honda once again whoring the NSX badge to sell someting else at the real NSX's images expense.

I feel dirty.

 

[Midnight_Raven]

I hadn't thought of it that way. You have an excellent point actually. I guess for me, the allure of the NSX had a lot to do with its MR layout; it's just more exotic.

I agree with you Juice. That's something I like about the NSX it is Japan's only exotic sports car that looks the part. Other japense make make sports cars but the NSX is the only one with that exotic look to it. I guess you could say the MR2 looks exotic too but it's not really as refined as the NSX either. I do hope the next one is MR but I'm not going to start a riot of it's a FR hybrid sports car and called an NSX either.

I think the issue is a lot of people wished the NSX follows the idea behind the 911. Continuous improvement on the same idea and design. I don't think that is what the NSX is really intended for so I don't expect it to happen.

Imagine if the new NSX is a high performance fuel cell production car? That would be a big statement by honda and would fit the NSX name as well since I don't think any company has even tried that yet. Any way I'm just babbling here I'll just stop now .

 

[tbromley]

Honcho makes some good points but there is one major concept that I do not agree with. Honda can fit in the 50k to 90k price range just fine.

Some of you, that keep up with Porsche over the past 20 years, may recall when they went from the torsion bar cars, last produced in 89 to the new 75% new mechanically designed 964, then after only 4 short years of production turned right around and built the 993 another technologically advanced big step forward mechanically and not only were they able to do it but they did it AND lowered the price. Yes that's right, the 993 was cheaper than the model it replaced. The last of the air/oil coolers while upping performance hp, handling, ride comfort, a new rear multi link suspension that transformed the rear end and "tamed" it, put AC in that actually worked well, and changed the body style and completely to the point that 75% of the body panels were new. Do you think they competed well? They also built a targa, coupe and convertible, and an S model and a Turbo model and a Turbo S model and completely revamped the AWD.....whew - I'm geting tired just writing about it.

So to say that Honda can't take the NSX and figure out how to upgrade it and change it's looks over 15 years with anything but frog eyes and some better stitching in the interior and shiny bits in there as well and bigger brakes, doing nothing to the engine and tranny since 97 and call it a day - pure cheap ass poppy cock. Unsincere at best - living off thier laurels of only 15 years of production. The clutch and tranny change was done and merely kept up with the "jones's". The clutch for the NA1 is weak - and so now they have a dual mass flywheel and to replace the clutch in the NA2 is a pile of dough - progress - mmm - I guess. Not what I call on top of it. The only special car they made for us in the US was the Zanardi. Gee thanks - hope resurecting your coupe wasn't too much of an imposition. Compared to the changes that Porsche was doing there really wasn't much happening at Honda.

By the time we get to the last "gen" NA3 for lack of a better term for the 02-05 models - Porsche had come out with the Boxster and water cooled the 911 to get more hp and performance. I'm not a fan of the 996 as it surely had it's growing pains but can't deny that they moved forward. Now look at em - models galore - performance by the ton. Now the new GT3 RS with a 4.0 litre naturally aspirated 500 hp flat six engine - geez Honda WTF. I mean are you guys playing or just kind of standing on the side lines wishing you could.

It is time for Ito or whoever it is that will lead Honda into the market of the sports car again to GET BUSY. We expect it and we want it and some can afford to pay for it. Trouble Honda always had with the NSX is the price and folks not even willing to give them a try - "what a Japanese car costing as much as a 911????" are you kidding? Too bad really cause if they had been willing to really give it a try they may have made the sales numbers good enough to keep Honda in the game. Subtlety is not the way to move in the sports car industry - quite bits of advertising. Man you gotta shout it from the mountain tops and, and get out on the track and get busy winning with it. Then keep tweaking and building and improving and working the car to make it faster and better and make the R and S for everone - not just left hand drivers - what a dis - we bought most of the cars made in the entire world and we get no R and no S - WTF.

Honda is lucky that we few, we brave few love the car enough to keep the marque alive! Honda could have had a loyal following if they had continued to develop, improve and race. You have to build a race heritage by sticking with it - it's not just a "see we can do it too" kind of thing it's a serious attempt to make a commitment to racing, the sport, the industry - THE PASSION!

End.....

 

[WingZ]

This news is nothing more than recycled Bull Shit from Honda.

Every new CEO comes in and wants to do this and that with the new NSX. Some where along the development, they get derailed and come up with one excuse after another. When challenges arise, they weasel out instead of stepping up.

Ito - Do you have the leadership and determination to make a vehicle worthy enough to be called an NSX successor

No he has no interest in such a vehicle as it would make a clear statement. Honda stopped doing that long ago.

Fuqui was the only President who made it the furthest but he lost site as the hp wars were heating up and ditched the HSC since people were complaining not enough power.

HSC was the only real and true NSX replacement. Had he pushed it through and pushed the ASCC as a true example of Honda playing with the big boys we'd have a car that would actually be current with the times.

Ferrari apparently liked the HSC well enough to model the 458. That should really stick in Hondas craw:wink:

 

[Mingus]

I for one do not give a darn about bragging rights for 0-60 times.
Make it sub 5 and it would be fast enough for me.

 

[Honcho]

Ferrari apparently liked the HSC well enough to model the 458. That should really stick in Hondas craw:wink:

Awesome! Love it! :biggrin: Kind of like announcing the CR-Z right after Toyota unveils the LFA and watching Brawn F1 win the championship driving Honda cars. Honda really needs something for their self esteem right now...

Also, after doing some more research, I can confidently say that the J37A4 is the first engine I would agree is suitable for the NSX. It is clearly more advanced than the C-series in our cars. With a little tweaking, Honda could get 100 hp/L easy. The 2011 Sports Modulo NSX shows that Honda is willing to create a performance aftermarket for the NSX, perhaps like Ford Racing. I'd love to see a J37 performance package.

 

[Huck]

Here's my .02--Honda is no different then any other car company except it is also MEGA big in other products. The NSX was less then .05% of their business--it was kind of like a Flagship limited edition product that probably caught on better then they thought! Tim, you and I are Porsche kind of folks but comparison is not realistic. Prosche was, is, and always has been a performance car company with low production numbers. That's IT---no sedans (they can't give away their 4door disaster), no wagons, trucks--only thing they did beyond the obvious is to build some farm tractors and put some V8's into boats. Honcho--your wish list is---well---shared but---it will never happen. No car company ever cared about retro fitting their dated vehicles. The crate motors from Ford--chevy--etc are there because of the longivity of their trucks, and the demand of the aftermarket custom street cars. Chev & Ford displays at the Street Rod Nationals are incredable. So is their volumn of crate motor sales (marine included) compared to anyone else.
What baffles the hell out of me is how Honda can miss the mark so big--if you are 6' and 200lbs--try getting in and out of the S2000--I was a buyer looking and couldn't get in it--not even close.
Years back there were a lot of car companies who were willing to gamble a bit--ex--when a low cost performance car was wanted in the 60's--Chrysler came up the the Road Runner and the 340 Duster---Super performance on a budget. Today--take a look at the Mustang GT--400+hp, sub 5sec 0-60, decent suspension----and under $30k. Forget the styling as being 50 year old--they are SELLING like crazy.
Ford has taken a quantium leap with performance on the Mustang that Cheby did with the C5 Corvette in 97 (which I believe is a copy of the Por 928--with NSX body lines).
The NSX styling is timeless with style tweeking available by the tons. Performance options are also available--it just gets a little silly putting $3,4,5,6K etc. for more power when you still have so many other dated and failing stuff on the car (brakes, suspension, sound, windows, clutches, transmissions, etc. etc.).
Given the above--can anyone explain to me why Honda went to a 3.2 in 97 for more power when in reality if they simply put headers on the original 3.0-like they did on the 3.2--they would have gotten the same output as the 3.2--???
With Mazda still selling Miata's like crazy, sport cars are available for low, medium and large $$$ with quality continuing to improve. If Hundai decides to make a real performance sports car & convertible---just watch what happens!!! Honda and Toyota are the Chevy and Ford of the 70's--fat, dumb, and asleep.
Huck

 

[WingZ]

Awesome! Love it! :biggrin: Kind of like announcing the CR-Z right after Toyota unveils the LFA and watching Brawn F1 win the championship driving Honda cars. Honda really needs something for their self esteem right now...

Also, after doing some more research, I can confidently say that the J37A4 is the first engine I would agree is suitable for the NSX. It is clearly more advanced than the C-series in our cars. With a little tweaking, Honda could get 100 hp/L easy. The 2011 Sports Modulo NSX shows that Honda is willing to create a performance aftermarket for the NSX, perhaps like Ford Racing. I'd love to see a J37 performance package.

LOL Honda has been plagued with constantly making the wrong decision over and over in this regard and having the worst timing. What's really necessary is having a plan and sticking to it as this flip flop has been worse than anything.

I understand they're not big like Toyota but what they "used to be" was innovative. They're larger than the were when they introduced both the NSX and S2K what they had then they've lost and it shows. We keep hearing that Honda is aware of the problem but the new Civic Si was by Honda supposed to show the new direction of Honda and well uh

 

[Brylek]

To me the NSX was a child of Honda's golden F1 times. I think that in today's world it's hard to compete in the $50-$90k range so Honda wants to pass instead of creating a guaranteed disappointment. I agree with Honcho about how Honda should persue Porsches strategy but I would still want to let Honda be Honda. This will definitely be a recent purchaser's point of view but if I was obsessed with performance I would simply go with a Porsche or the Nissan GT-R. Instead I own a piece of history that I'm very happy with.

 

[NSX-C2]

While Honda is still wondering what to do, like a lost child, GM is full steam ahead with its corvette.

 

[nsxot1c]

saw this Lotus at the NY auto show and thought it resembled the concept NSX quite a bit...

<a target='_blank' title='ImageShack - Image And Video Hosting' href='http://img839.imageshack.us/i/autoshow1.png/'><img src='http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/6011/autoshow1.png' border='0'/></a>

 

[nsxot1c]

<a target='_blank' title='ImageShack - Image And Video Hosting' href='http://img3.imageshack.us/i/autoshow2.png/'><img src='http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3639/autoshow2.png' border='0'/></a>