LOLz!
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MAC OR PC which is better?
- Thread starter shawn110975
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LOLz!
I'm sorry but I just couldn't let this go. There is too much BS in here to give it a pass. I only pointed out stuff I specifically knew about, but there is a whole lot more I didn't address. I'm sure if I did a little digging I would find more that is just blatant.
But the fact that the stuff I point out are big blatant fanboism and just wrong, should make much of what else was said suspect.
Wrong. It was the C64 that made personal computing happen. The C64 sold more and were in more homes than any Apple I, II or III. FWIW, I had an Apple II and a IIe.
Wrong. That would be the HP LaserJet. The unit came out before the LaserWriter (which happened to use the same print engine as the LaserJet).
And if you are going to say "networked", that would have been the LaserJet II.
"Popularized" the Lisa. All I can do with this is LOL. And if Apple really licensed the PARC stuff, why did Xerox sue Apple for appropriating the use of their look and feel?
Not sure if this is a blessing or a curse.
Inconsequential. But I do find it amusing and irritating that Apple will continue corporate TM abuse by TMing common language.
LOL, moles.
LOLWUT? You have to be kidding me. My Atari 400 from 3rd century BC had a dedicated coprocessor to generate bitmap graphics.
Wrong. First use was a PC, 1996. USB on the Mac came 2 years later on the iMac.
Had it, it was awful.
Wrong. Apple contracted Quantum Computer Services to create AppleLink Personal Edition. This service was based off of QCC's service for the C64 called QLink. QCC also released PC Link the same year as AppleLink Personal Edition. After QCC and Apple parted ways, QCC changed all their services names to AOL.
Just a note, prior to OSX, the Mac file system was notoriously the worst file system of any PC. It was prone to frequent corruption and loss of data. Apple tried to update it multiple times but could not due to legacy issues. They finally pulled it off by completely tossing their original OS for the Next Computer OS.
Wrong. Many computers previous to Apple did not use the 8.3 convention and supported special characters, etc.
Wrong. The PC/AT computer was released in '94 and used SIMMS. The first Mac to use SIMMS was the +, in 1985.
That would have been the Atari Falcon 030.
I'm fairly certain that this is a huge falsehood. Apple was still trying to push Appletalk as their networking protocol long after Token Ring died off and Ethernet had become entrenched in corporate. And while Ethernet was an "add in card" for PCs, most PC manufacturers allowed you to config their machines with it.
This is not a result of bad hardware planning, its just the opposite. The was a result of open architecture, the PC platform was flexible and cost efficient.
I am actually mentally drained by this. It's one thing to be a cheerleader for the things you love, but this is out of control. The amount of misinformation is staggering. Why can't you accept the fact that Apple is just a bit player in a huge marketplace and enjoy their products for what they are?
But the fact that the stuff I point out are big blatant fanboism and just wrong, should make much of what else was said suspect.
Wrong. It was the C64 that made personal computing happen. The C64 sold more and were in more homes than any Apple I, II or III. FWIW, I had an Apple II and a IIe.
Wrong. That would be the HP LaserJet. The unit came out before the LaserWriter (which happened to use the same print engine as the LaserJet).
And if you are going to say "networked", that would have been the LaserJet II.
"Popularized" the Lisa. All I can do with this is LOL. And if Apple really licensed the PARC stuff, why did Xerox sue Apple for appropriating the use of their look and feel?
Not sure if this is a blessing or a curse.
Inconsequential. But I do find it amusing and irritating that Apple will continue corporate TM abuse by TMing common language.
LOL, moles.
LOLWUT? You have to be kidding me. My Atari 400 from 3rd century BC had a dedicated coprocessor to generate bitmap graphics.
Wrong. First use was a PC, 1996. USB on the Mac came 2 years later on the iMac.
Had it, it was awful.
Wrong. Apple contracted Quantum Computer Services to create AppleLink Personal Edition. This service was based off of QCC's service for the C64 called QLink. QCC also released PC Link the same year as AppleLink Personal Edition. After QCC and Apple parted ways, QCC changed all their services names to AOL.
Just a note, prior to OSX, the Mac file system was notoriously the worst file system of any PC. It was prone to frequent corruption and loss of data. Apple tried to update it multiple times but could not due to legacy issues. They finally pulled it off by completely tossing their original OS for the Next Computer OS.
Wrong. Many computers previous to Apple did not use the 8.3 convention and supported special characters, etc.
Wrong. The PC/AT computer was released in '94 and used SIMMS. The first Mac to use SIMMS was the +, in 1985.
That would have been the Atari Falcon 030.
I'm fairly certain that this is a huge falsehood. Apple was still trying to push Appletalk as their networking protocol long after Token Ring died off and Ethernet had become entrenched in corporate. And while Ethernet was an "add in card" for PCs, most PC manufacturers allowed you to config their machines with it.
This is not a result of bad hardware planning, its just the opposite. The was a result of open architecture, the PC platform was flexible and cost efficient.
I am actually mentally drained by this. It's one thing to be a cheerleader for the things you love, but this is out of control. The amount of misinformation is staggering. Why can't you accept the fact that Apple is just a bit player in a huge marketplace and enjoy their products for what they are?
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OK, let's review your list.... (but many of your comments are subjective and just your opinion).
I'm sorry but I just couldn't let this go. There is too much BS in here to give it a pass. I only pointed out stuff I specifically knew about, but there is a whole lot more I didn't address. I'm sure if I did a little digging I would find more that is just blatant.
But the fact that the stuff I point out are big blatant fanboism and just wrong, should make much of what else was said suspect.
Wrong. It was the C64 that made personal computing happen. The C64 sold more and were in more homes than any Apple I, II or III. FWIW, I had an Apple II and a IIe.
Well, this isn't wrong or right. It's kind of subjective. I would argue that many people credit Apple with igniting the personal computer revolution. However, C64 came out 5 years after the Apple II. So, I think you're not quite right. The revolution was already started.
Wrong. That would be the HP LaserJet. The unit came out before the LaserWriter (which happened to use the same print engine as the LaserJet).
And if you are going to say "networked", that would have been the LaserJet II.
The first networked laser printer was Apple's LaserWriter. It used Apple's LocalTalk cabling and AppleTalk protocols. The first LaserJet was not networked. I'll stand by my comment.
"Popularized" the Lisa. All I can do with this is LOL. And if Apple really licensed the PARC stuff, why did Xerox sue Apple for appropriating the use of their look and feel?
So, you LOL'd but didn't disagree. Like it or not, or LOL or not, the Lisa and Mac brought windows, mouse, bitmapped screen, fonts to the mass market. If you disagree, then tell us otherwise.
LOLWUT? You have to be kidding me. My Atari 400 from 3rd century BC had a dedicated coprocessor to generate bitmap graphics.
So? That's a lot different than having an entire bitmapped screen graphics environment and not just certain graphics. Again, Lisa and Mac were the first.
Wrong. First use was a PC, 1996. USB on the Mac came 2 years later on the iMac.
OK. You got me here. The iMac was the first to get rid of the legacy ports and move entirely to USB.
Wrong. Apple contracted Quantum Computer Services to create AppleLink Personal Edition. This service was based off of QCC's service for the C64 called QLink. QCC also released PC Link the same year as AppleLink Personal Edition. After QCC and Apple parted ways, QCC changed all their services names to AOL.
Where was I wrong? Apple created AppleLink Personal Edition (using a consultant, big deal). AppleLink was the first and it begat AppleLink PE. You're really nitpicking. If you're going to invalidate everything that was bought or developed outside then Microsoft wouldn't have hardly anything to their credit. LOL!
Wrong. Many computers previous to Apple did not use the 8.3 convention and supported special characters, etc.
What other personal computers had extended names prior to Apple's Mac?
Wrong. The PC/AT computer was released in '94 and used SIMMS. The first Mac to use SIMMS was the +, in 1985.
I'll have to check this. I had an article that said otherwise.
I'm fairly certain that this is a huge falsehood. Apple was still trying to push Appletalk as their networking protocol long after Token Ring died off and Ethernet had become entrenched in corporate. And while Ethernet was an "add in card" for PCs, most PC manufacturers allowed you to config their machines with it.
You're confusing the AppleTalk protocol, which ran over Token Ring, Ethernet and LocalTalk with the cable.
I am actually mentally drained by this. It's one thing to be a cheerleader for the things you love, but this is out of control. The amount of misinformation is staggering. Why can't you accept the fact that Apple is just a bit player in a huge marketplace and enjoy their products for what they are?
So, what I may have erred on two minor points and you claim the misinformation is staggering? LOL!!!
I'm sorry but I just couldn't let this go. There is too much BS in here to give it a pass. I only pointed out stuff I specifically knew about, but there is a whole lot more I didn't address. I'm sure if I did a little digging I would find more that is just blatant.
But the fact that the stuff I point out are big blatant fanboism and just wrong, should make much of what else was said suspect.
Wrong. It was the C64 that made personal computing happen. The C64 sold more and were in more homes than any Apple I, II or III. FWIW, I had an Apple II and a IIe.
Well, this isn't wrong or right. It's kind of subjective. I would argue that many people credit Apple with igniting the personal computer revolution. However, C64 came out 5 years after the Apple II. So, I think you're not quite right. The revolution was already started.
Wrong. That would be the HP LaserJet. The unit came out before the LaserWriter (which happened to use the same print engine as the LaserJet).
And if you are going to say "networked", that would have been the LaserJet II.
The first networked laser printer was Apple's LaserWriter. It used Apple's LocalTalk cabling and AppleTalk protocols. The first LaserJet was not networked. I'll stand by my comment.
"Popularized" the Lisa. All I can do with this is LOL. And if Apple really licensed the PARC stuff, why did Xerox sue Apple for appropriating the use of their look and feel?
So, you LOL'd but didn't disagree. Like it or not, or LOL or not, the Lisa and Mac brought windows, mouse, bitmapped screen, fonts to the mass market. If you disagree, then tell us otherwise.
LOLWUT? You have to be kidding me. My Atari 400 from 3rd century BC had a dedicated coprocessor to generate bitmap graphics.
So? That's a lot different than having an entire bitmapped screen graphics environment and not just certain graphics. Again, Lisa and Mac were the first.
Wrong. First use was a PC, 1996. USB on the Mac came 2 years later on the iMac.
OK. You got me here. The iMac was the first to get rid of the legacy ports and move entirely to USB.
Wrong. Apple contracted Quantum Computer Services to create AppleLink Personal Edition. This service was based off of QCC's service for the C64 called QLink. QCC also released PC Link the same year as AppleLink Personal Edition. After QCC and Apple parted ways, QCC changed all their services names to AOL.
Where was I wrong? Apple created AppleLink Personal Edition (using a consultant, big deal). AppleLink was the first and it begat AppleLink PE. You're really nitpicking. If you're going to invalidate everything that was bought or developed outside then Microsoft wouldn't have hardly anything to their credit. LOL!
Wrong. Many computers previous to Apple did not use the 8.3 convention and supported special characters, etc.
What other personal computers had extended names prior to Apple's Mac?
Wrong. The PC/AT computer was released in '94 and used SIMMS. The first Mac to use SIMMS was the +, in 1985.
I'll have to check this. I had an article that said otherwise.
I'm fairly certain that this is a huge falsehood. Apple was still trying to push Appletalk as their networking protocol long after Token Ring died off and Ethernet had become entrenched in corporate. And while Ethernet was an "add in card" for PCs, most PC manufacturers allowed you to config their machines with it.
You're confusing the AppleTalk protocol, which ran over Token Ring, Ethernet and LocalTalk with the cable.
I am actually mentally drained by this. It's one thing to be a cheerleader for the things you love, but this is out of control. The amount of misinformation is staggering. Why can't you accept the fact that Apple is just a bit player in a huge marketplace and enjoy their products for what they are?
So, what I may have erred on two minor points and you claim the misinformation is staggering? LOL!!!
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Mac.. PC.. all sucked.
The REAL revolutionary computer of that era was the Commodore Amiga. 4096 colors while everybody else was still running Hercules monochrome adapters and 16 color CGA. Dedicated kick-ass sound chip, dedicated hardware graphics blitter, revolutionary display list processor, REAL pre-emptive multitasking, command line interface AND graphical UI, etc. etc. It blew everything else out of the water and had a LOT of firsts. Too bad Commodore sucked as a company and drove their products into the ground.
The funniest thing was running MacOS under emulation on the Amiga and it actually being FASTER on the Amiga than on a real Mac! The developer of that emulator (AMax) ironically now works at Apple ;-)
The REAL revolutionary computer of that era was the Commodore Amiga. 4096 colors while everybody else was still running Hercules monochrome adapters and 16 color CGA. Dedicated kick-ass sound chip, dedicated hardware graphics blitter, revolutionary display list processor, REAL pre-emptive multitasking, command line interface AND graphical UI, etc. etc. It blew everything else out of the water and had a LOT of firsts. Too bad Commodore sucked as a company and drove their products into the ground.
The funniest thing was running MacOS under emulation on the Amiga and it actually being FASTER on the Amiga than on a real Mac! The developer of that emulator (AMax) ironically now works at Apple ;-)
But it was the Apple II that people took from their homes and into the office. Even so, it wasn't the Apple II by itself that made personal computing happen, it was the Apple II plus Visicalc. That was the real start of the PC revolution. It just happened to arrive for the Apple first.
It is not kind of subjective, it is market dominance. The C64 sold 15+ million units over its lifetime. Regardless of what people may claim, the numbers show clearly what computers were in most homes at the time. The were more C64s in households than Atari, Apple and IBM combined. It is what popularized home computing, not the small numbers Apple had.
From a semantic standpoint, this is true. But I cannot in good conscience agree with this. Mainly because no one in the networking world ever looked at AppleTalk as a real networking protocol. And the fact that it catered to Apple and only Apple products goes against the whole idea of networking, allowing a disparate collection of devices to communicate with one another.
If you are going to jump in and say you could connect AppleTalk networks to Ethernet and Token Ring, yes, yes you could. Many years later.
I thought the disagreement was inherent in the LOL. I also LOLed because the the Lisa didn't popularize anything, it was a bomb and didn't sell.
Further, I'm not sure where you got all this licensing information from, Apple ripped off Xerox. Xerox sued Apple for exactly that reason.
This also really shows just how much innovation Apple did for the Mac. Apple didn't innovate anything, they just ripped of Xerox PARC and reaped the rewards for doing so. You complain about Microsoft for doing so, Apple is no different.
No. You are confusing hardware capabilities with software execution. Bitmapped screen graphics has been around since the dawn of time.
Now if you said wysiwyg, then I would agree with you.
Really, removal of legacy ports is the big Apple "win"? Two years after the initial execution?
Your whole premise is based on Apple innovating and bring things first to market. No, it was not first online support and email service from a computer company.
To spell this out for you:
1. There was already a service out that catered to the C64.
2. Apple contracted the company that made the C64 version, and it was emulated. That is the opposite of innovate, and also not first to market.
3. The same company that created the two above, made a third for the PC and released it the same year as AppleLink PE.
4. The remaining non-Apple services went on to become a hugely successful pre-Internet service, while AppleLink quietly went away.
Seriously? Atari, PET, C64, Amstrad... None are 8.3 and could use special characters.
No, I did say "Appletalk as their networking protocol". Further, Appletalk never ran over Token Ring or Ethernet physical layers without a bridge. Again, the bridge to allow you to link to other networks came years later.
None of what is stated above is "innovation", or "first to market", with the exception of Appletalk printers. But I think the explanation of networking makes AppleTalk networking weak.
I stand by my statement.
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Business drove the PC revolution. The vast majority of those C64s were nothing more than snazzy game consoles to their owners. Home computing in the 80s is almost irrelevant to how and why the industry grew.
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All that red text looks like a sea of Apple blood.
Here's a timely video...
http://vimeo.com/25380454
Everything is a Remix #3
also on YouTube
Talks about how Apple took initial ideas from Xerox, modified them, invented new stuff and combined them to form the Lisa and Mac.
Very well done. It shows how many of the user interface elements were really kludgey on the Alto and Star.
Essentially, this is what I was saying above...
-Jim
http://vimeo.com/25380454
Everything is a Remix #3
also on YouTube
Talks about how Apple took initial ideas from Xerox, modified them, invented new stuff and combined them to form the Lisa and Mac.
Very well done. It shows how many of the user interface elements were really kludgey on the Alto and Star.
Essentially, this is what I was saying above...
-Jim
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Caustic, you're mistaken on the AppleTalk over Ethernet. EtherTalk works great with no bridges. You're definitely thinking about LocalTalk with those criticisms. LocalTalk was a super low-cost networking option that used the high speed serial ports. If you had a LocalTalk network and wanted it to connect to your Ethernet network, you used a bridge. But if you used Ethertalk from the get go, no bridge was needed--TCP/IP, EtherTalk, and AppleTalk over IP could all coexist on the same network. It (LocalTalk and the other flavors of AppleTalk) was completely plug and play and my friends and I used it and spent many hours having LAN parties several years before it was popular in the much larger PC gaming market. You plugged in two computers together and they could talk to each other. Period. No IP addresses, no hubs or switches. Just some telephone cord. Bungie made some pretty awesome multiplayer Mac games back then.
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I never denied that AppleTalk runs over ethernet. Every current protocol now runs over ethernet. But the issue with Jimbo is always about 1st to market and first to innovate. I was merely pointing out that at the time of release in the 80s, networking protocols were highly coupled with the topology and architecture they used (which includes cabling).
So what does that mean? It means that while corporate had moved to ethernet and token ring in the early 80s, Apple did not have a networking device. In 85, Apple introduced AppleTalk over serial and still couldn't communicate with corporate networks. Finally, in the late 80s, 3rd party bridges were released so that AppleTalk could be used over corporate networks. Then in 88 or so, you start seeing EtherTalk etc. show up. This is years after corporate had been networking, and years after the initial implementation of AppleTalk. While everyone else was using 10base-5 and then 10base-2, Apple was still messing around with serial connections to network.
AppleTalk was never taken seriously in a networking environment except for when it came to communicating with other Apple devices.Apple fanboys try to make it sound as if Apple invented everything, and was first to market with everything. Jimbo has put "TCP/IP Support built into OS" in his original post as an Apple computing innovation. Really? You don't think that is a stretch? The fact is the growth of the computer industry came from multiple sources all contributing to the industry we see today.
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http://www.bgr.com/2011/06/23/micro...-rivalry-from-inception-to-global-domination/
Not sure how accurate this will be since it is done by the number one mac fanboy site.
Not sure how accurate this will be since it is done by the number one mac fanboy site.
One problem right away -- the chart does not appear to account for stock splits. It's no secret that MSFT has sucked for the past 10 years, but if you bought identical dollar amounts of AAPL and MSFT in 1986, you'd have about two and a half times as much money in MSFT than AAPL today.
I never denied that AppleTalk runs over ethernet. Every current protocol now runs over ethernet. But the issue with Jimbo is always about 1st to market and first to innovate. I was merely pointing out that at the time of release in the 80s, networking protocols were highly coupled with the topology and architecture they used (which includes cabling).
So what does that mean? It means that while corporate had moved to ethernet and token ring in the early 80s, Apple did not have a networking device. In 85, Apple introduced AppleTalk over serial and still couldn't communicate with corporate networks. Finally, in the late 80s, 3rd party bridges were released so that AppleTalk could be used over corporate networks. Then in 88 or so, you start seeing EtherTalk etc. show up. This is years after corporate had been networking, and years after the initial implementation of AppleTalk. While everyone else was using 10base-5 and then 10base-2, Apple was still messing around with serial connections to network.
Apple fanboys try to make it sound as if Apple invented everything, and was first to market with everything. Jimbo has put "TCP/IP Support built into OS" in his original post as an Apple computing innovation. Really? You don't think that is a stretch? The fact is the growth of the computer industry came from multiple sources all contributing to the industry we see today.
I was disagreeing with your statement here (emphasis mine):
Also, when you said this:
MacOS X right now uses "MacOS Extended (Journaled)" as it's file system. This is a renamed version of HFS Plus (Hierarchical File System), a gussied up version of the same file system used in pre-OSX Macs. They added UTF-8 support for filenames, support for much larger disks, smaller allocation blocks, hard links, journaling for resistance against corruption and so on. It's pretty good in daily use as far as I can tell, and it was pretty good compared to FAT in the 90s as well. It is NOT the Unix file system like NextStep, which was an option to use in the early days of OS X, but was fraught with compatibility issues with older software due to its case sensitivity.
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So Microsoft Windows products represent 85.2% of the marketshare (vs Apple's 8.3%) as of May 2011? Hmmmm
It's obvious Caustic is trying to rewrite what he said and failing poorly.
Even in his latest reply...
He obviously did some online checking and is trying to salvage his argument but he is still grasping at straws.
He wrote that in the early 80s when corporate had moved to Ethernet and Token Ring, that Apple did not have a networking device. LOL!!! The Macintosh didn't even come out until 1984.
LocalTalk Macs and LaserWriters connected to many corporate networks via routers (and not bridges - I doubt Caustic knows the technical difference) such as the Kinetics FastPath in 1985 (not the late 80s as Caustic claims). So once again Caustic has NO idea what he's talking about. I personally installed many such networks in major corporations (like Union Carbide, DuPont, Merck, JP Morgan bank, RCA, GE).
Just as soon as Macs shipped with Ethernet and Token Ring capabilities (i.e. NuBus card slots for the Macintosh II) then they spoke AppleTalk over Ethernet and Token Ring respectively. Caustic tries to make it sound like it was SO much later on. LOL! This all happened in mid-1987.
It's just untrue that Apple was messing around with serial communications when everyone else was using Ethernet and Token ring. Apple embraced both technogies quickly and there were many vendors of EtherTalk (10-Base 2 and 10-Base 5) and TokenTalk cards. There were even FDDI cards!
Finally, his last statement just shows how unfamiliar Caustic is with the actual facts. Obviously, he's just guessing and trying to come off as being knowledgeble.
In fact, Apple Macs, LaserWrites and AppleTalk were integrated with other systems quite often in corporate settings around the world. He's obviously unaware that Apple and Digital Equipment Corp (DEC) had a huge alliance where Macs and DEC VAX computers interoperated over AppleTalk and DECnet. Macintosh was able to speak DECnet and VAX computers had the AppleTalk protocol stack (AppleTalk for VMS).
So, Macintosh users (either on LocalTalk routed to Ethernet, or direct Ethernet connections) were able to use and share VAX-based services. The VAX could be made to look like a big AppleShare file server and it could also perform print spooling to networked LaserWriters. There were several client-server applications that used this AppleTalk for VMS environment as well.
Macs were also widely used as smart terminals on the VAX network as well as many AS/400 networks. And there was a nice implementation of a X-Windows server that ran on Macs as well.
This was all a big deal in the late 80s and 90s. As Macs took off in Desktop Publishing, Scientific areas, Chemical companies, Drug companies there were thousands of companies around the world that had such cross-platform networks. I know this because I consulted with many of these companies back then and designed and installed these networks. I even wrote a trade paperback book on the topic.
Caustic - just stop trying so hard to prove yourself right. You don't know what you're talking about in this instance.
Respectfully,
Jim
Ah VAXen... those were the days.
Props for the proper plural. Would you also go with NSXen? :biggrin:
Oh man, my only experience with VAX and VMS was in school, Fortran class. The shell was so weird, and the text editor was also weird. We could see the VAX machine sitting behind a glass wall, and I think it had an incandescent indicator light on it. That to me meant "ancient."
I don't know the technical difference? What do you guys think EtherTalk is? EtherTalk is a bridge.
If you believe that then I have another bridge I'd like to sell you. EtherTalk is the physical implementation of AppleTalk protocols on Ethernet cabling. The Ethernet type codes were 809B and 80F3. And from this, one should be able to deduce what TokenTalk was.
You're wrong again. A network bridge is something else entirely. But hey, I don't mind explaining this. I really do love to teach. Next lesson...the difference between a....
Repeater
Bridge
Router
Gateway
-Jim
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