NSX vs. Supra , Handling

[cmhs75]

I want to know

In term of handling alone, which is the better car NSX or TT supra

By handling, I mean steering feel, braking feel, and turning in balance

Im just asking because I just recently read someone's quote that the Supra is a better handler and more forgiving on the track with a novice driver which goes against everything I know

I don’t care about strait line performance since to many cars are good at that

 

[Ponyboy]

As objectively as I can be, I'd state that the NSX was the better handler of the two. Especially given the criteria you mentioned. The only one where there would be some question is braking feel - which I think is fairly subjective - thus more difficult to rate. The NSX is world renowned for it's steering feel and crisp turn in.

Though not having driven one, the Supra inherently (front engine RWD) has an easier time of controling oversteer. For a novice driver that quality alone would make it more "forgiving." The NSX, with a low polar moment of inertia (MR), is a little more tricky at the limit. But in the hands of an expert driver, given the configurations, the NSX would be the better performer.

 

[cmhs75]

I know that mid engine cars can be tricky to a novice driver, but as far as I know, when the NSX was first introduced it was a revolution. It was the first user friendly supercar that anyone can drive fast even Beginners . So the NSX should be one of the exceptions to the rule of mid engine cars needing a little getting used to

 

[Ponyboy]

A stock NSX has a slight understeer. That produces a sense of security for novices and helps them get used to the car's dynamics. Since novices aren't at the limit of the car's performance...or they get over the limit without knowing...therein lies the NSX's trickery. The NSX is lauded b/c it is easy to drive AND reliable, very similiar to Honda's 4 door models, but make no mistake, it is a MR layout and you can't argue with physics.

 

[cmhs75]

Is it safe to say that Mid Engine rear wheal drive sports cars have a higher handling limit than front engine rear wheal drives

 

[Ponyboy]

That depends on a lot of variables. But in general terms, yes. Yet the optimal handling car, in steady state cornering, has 50/50% weight distribution - of which the neither Supra and NSX have. The advantages of a MR layout are, but not limited to, handling, acceleration, traction, braking, and aerodynamics. It's important to know that the MR layout is the best compromise of all of these factors.

 

[cmhs75]

I don’t think the 50/50 split is the ideal one

Porsches have always used a split of around 46/54 and they do that deliberately

And they are not the only ones. If I'm not mistaken, even Ferrari F360 has a split of around 46/54. and they are trying to do the same to the front engine Maranello as are the designers of the new vision SLR but I think they failed to do that.

46/54 setup is probably better than the 50/50 setup

 

[veejayy]

Not even close in favor of NSX.

I have owned TT Supra for 6 years and my ONLY complaint is the numb steering and less than razor sharp steering.

The NSX exceeds it by several yards. The Supra is a big ass heavy car. Where as the NSX is the surgical knife, the Supra is the blunt letter opener. The Supra is best considered a muscle car with good handling, the NSX is a track car with good acceleration. However, at the limit, the NSX can be unforgiving because of its mid engine design. However, since most of you will not be at the limit, unless at the track, this is a non-issue.

The Supra satisfies in so many ways (incredible acceleration, turbo kick, relative rarity, indestrutability) but handling is not one of them.

When I test drove the NSX a year ago I was just stunned at the go cart handling.

 

[Ponyboy]

I don’t think the 50/50 split is the ideal one

Porsches have always used a split of around 46/54 and they do that deliberately

And they are not the only ones. If I'm not mistaken, even Ferrari F360 has a split of around 46/54. and they are trying to do the same to the front engine Maranello as are the designers of the new vision SLR but I think they failed to do that.

46/54 setup is probably better than the 50/50 setup

If you're really interested on why that thought is false, you may want to do some research on suspension theory on the net and in some of the available books.

 

[cmhs75]

read this qoute

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That's because while Mercedes mandated the SLR's front-engine layout, Mclaren's chief engineer, Gordon Murray (he penned the BMW-powered Mclaren F1, generally acknowledged as the fastest 'production' car on the planet) favours mid-engine formats. The compromise was to move the driver rearward and place the engine aft of the front axle, literally under that radially sloping front windshield. Reportedly, Murray was after 53/47 per cent rearward weight bias, but had to settle for what lesser manufacturers would call an ideal 50-50 split.
___________________________________________________

I took it from this webpage:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/autos/reviews/mercedes/story/1148519p-1368849c.html


you can cheek it out for yourself

 

[Ojas]

cmhs75: As Ponyboy mentioned, an understanding of the basics would allow you to continue this discussion in a more significant way. To get you started: http://www.ffcobra.com/FAQ/handling102.html (start with section 3 and be sure to continue through page 2).

It's a quick read, so I'm not going to bother quoting any excerpts.

 

[Macster]

From my experience the NSX feels much better when turning in and steering feedback. In terms of roadholding ability, I would say the two cars are about equal. Although the Supra has more weight, it can also accommodate much wider tires.

 

[cmhs75]

Thanks a million for the link Ojas you guys are great

OK after reading the link ill conclude the following:

50/50 split is the ideal bias, I was wrong and Ojas & Ponyboy were right

40/60 split of MR cars is preferred over the 50/50 split of FR cars even though it is inferior for the reasons written in the below quote taken from Ojas link

____________________________________________________
On the contrary, rear-heavy car has larger slip angle at the rear, thus introduce oversteer. Similarly, we can find a 50/50 balanced car having neutral steer. This is our choice for optimum handling. We don't really need oversteer in this case, because such oversteer is not controllable, unlike power oversteer which we have found in RWD cars.

The result favours front-engined, RWD cars (FR), which is easiest to achieve 50/50 F/R weight distribution.

Mid-engined, RWD cars (MR), with its slight rearward weight bias at about 40/60, is slightly inferior in here. But remember, its superior steering response, steering feel and dynamic balance are probably more than enough to compensate.
____________________________________________________

Great link by the way Ojas

Now coming back to the subject, this further proves that the NSX is a better handler than the Toyota Supra

 

[ERZ]

Turbo Supra is a fat heavy car and feels it..an NSX will do circles around it.An ESP equipped NSX just wips around the track like no other car.

 

[cms austx]

I haven't driven an NSX yet, but I had a great '97 Supra TT BPU++. It handled very well and stuck like glue, but you could feel the weight. I didn't realize it, though, until I switched to an S2000, which has around the same limits but turns in soooo much quicker and is more agile. I can't wait to try an NSX (hopefully real soon).

 

[Dan H]

I feel MR setups (if done right) are naturally a superior setup than other setups. As mentioned, the NSX has a low polar moment of inertia so the chassis is quick to respond. Under higher speeds, when hard braking, weight transfers to the front wheels thus altering the F/R weight distribution. Weight shifts back/forth and side to side a lot on the track whether it is entering or exiting a turn.

I personally haven't driven both but only basing it on my MR2 experience. A friend of mines with a Supra mentioned that his car didn't have "go kart" like handling like what an MR setup would offer.

 

[liftcontrol]

I have owned a TT Supra for years and

now own the NSX. I have also owned the Miata.

The NSX is by far the superior handler of the three, followed by the Miata and then the Supra. The Supra is no slouch but the NSX is one of the best handling cars ever built. The Miata was the most tossable car I have ever owned.

 

[cmhs75]

OK, now Im really really confused.

If Front engine cars are a lot more predictable that mid engine cars on the limit, then why is everyone turning to the mid engine cars and leaving he front engine cars alone

I need clarification

I never drove a mid engine car before. I am still in the process of getting my NSX which is very near if every thing goes to plan. But until then, for you guys who do have mid engine cars. Could you please solve my dilemma. In a track where you are going to drive up to the limit of your vehicle, which would you choose

Mid Engine / Frond engine

 

[apapada]

OK, now Im really really confused.

If Front engine cars are a lot more predictable that mid engine cars on the limit, then why is everyone turning to the mid engine cars and leaving he front engine cars alone

I need clarification

Predictability has nothing to do with maximum handling. A car can be very predictable withough a high handling limit and vice-versa. A car with FR layout will tend to give plenty of warning to the driver as he's approaching its limit. This is not necessarily the case with a MR layout, where the car may be safely understeering one moment, and in complete oversteer the next one, say if the driver is inexperienced and lifts the throttle too fast. There might be very little to no warning in order for the driver to react in time. That's where experience is required in order to know how the car is going to react. Bottom line, a predictable car will be forgiving and may be better suited for an inexperienced driver. In order to take advantage of the full potential of a MR car, experience is key.

I never drove a mid engine car before. I am still in the process of getting my NSX which is very near if every thing goes to plan. But until then, for you guys who do have mid engine cars. Could you please solve my dilemma. In a track where you are going to drive up to the limit of your vehicle, which would you choose

Mid Engine / Frond engine

Depends on the track. If it's a "fast" track, FR cars (with large wheelbase) tend to be more stable at high speeds. If it's a very sinous track, a MR might be easier to toss around the corners. As you see, there is no absolute answer to anything. Bottom line, depending on the track and your piloting style, one may be "better" than the other...