Oil Analysis results.. speculation over, science in, and why that titanium content?

[zahntech]

"--IN ADDITION, I remember that the #1 cylinder about 9 months ago... I had replaced the spark plugs but damaged 1 while handling it. I put 5 in, drove the car a few days and then replaced #1. The car was misfiring during this process... I didn't think it was that big of a deal but apparently, I learned later from John Zahn, that the misfire was pinging and unburnt fuel was washing down teh cylinder wall."

Can the misfiring in a few days cause this much problems on #1 cylinder? I would think that the fuel would be pushed out from the exhaust valves. It would probably overheat the cats due to the unburned fuel.

Furthermore, the oil would get on the cylinder wall each stroke to lubricate it.

Just curious...

The vehicle must have cats if they are to overheat.

At 90psi fuel pressure under boost there will ba alot of fuel added to the cyls, Fuel washing of the Cyls has always been a concern with engines that were not designed to be supercharged and Fuel management is primarily used to prevent misfire and keep the combustion chambers cool.

 

[nsxhk]

Back to the Ti retainer issue.....

Anybody know where I can get some Chromoly valve retainer made?

TIA.

Henry.

 

[JeffShoots]

Shad says he thinks he can get ~400RWHP (I'm around 375sh right now..) with stock components and doesn't recommend too many after-market parts (CASE IN POINT!) unless going for a serious 500+RWHP build.

Shad just used Ti retainers in my turbo 3.5L

Did he tell you how many years/miles Kip and others (Honda/Acura) W/ CT have run them?

Everything in your CAR stock or aftermarket CAN Fail. You could just put the car under glass and never drive it. :smile:

Or sell the car........somebody will drive it :smile:

Don't take this post the wrong way. Just step back and take a deep breath and ask yourself what you expect from a machine.........SOMETHING WILL BREAK :redface:

Somebody COULD run a RED light

Go out and enjoy your car.......sounds to me like your heart could fail.

 

[nsxotic911]

Shad just used Ti retainers in my turbo 3.5L

Did he tell you how many years/miles Kip and others (Honda/Acura) W/ CT have run them?

Everything in your CAR stock or aftermarket CAN Fail. You could just put the car under glass and never drive it. :smile:

Or sell the car........somebody will drive it :smile:

Don't take this post the wrong way. Just step back and take a deep breath and ask yourself what you expect from a machine.........SOMETHING WILL BREAK :redface:

Somebody COULD run a RED light

Go out and enjoy your car.......sounds to me like your heart could fail.

I hear ya. It's all about risk management. However, I don't think many of the seriously modified or forced induction guys really take all the "all" the
"prudent" steps to actively monitor the state of the engine. I think a regular oil analysis is critical, A/F gauge, oil/water temp, pre-emptive harmoic balancer replacement, baffled oil pan, regular coolant flush etc....

Something just breaks, and there goes your motor. In my case, motor and supercharger. Call me cynical, I also believe it's only a matter of time since everyones motor blows with FI no matter what you do. Who here has 50K on their FI'd motor? Honestly. 100K anyone? Remember Honda made this motor to go 200K, 300K, maybe even more stock, if unmolested
I got near 20K on it so far, I was hoping 50K....but oh well. Will shoot for 50K - 100K

Given the fact that the second oil sample with less miles and less harsh conditions showed the same + 1 ppm level of wear (essentially near ~10% more), I know something is going on.

It's either the retainer which has been reported to thin out - and break - or worse, the rod. There is also the loss of 10 - 20 points of compression in #1 cylinder in less than 5K miles (when I did the last check) I don't see how this number is going to go up anytime soon and is technically within "service manual spec," but then again, so is 145 compression and no one here buys that.

I don't plan on having the engine work done tilll around winter when I can get it retuned closer to average Seattle weather (eg closer to 30F then it is right now in Cali..) I'll still drive it nicely and try to monitor things closely.

To Jeffshoots, as far as the titanium retainers - just do a regular oil sample and you'll see. If no titanium, you have nothing to worry about. I only saw it after about 20K miles like I said. The supplier that I got may very well be different than what Shad has.

With that said, after everything I read and experienced, I will say, which I didn't say before.... with the exception of maybe a baffled oil pna, Stock Is Best. Stay as close as you can while still meeting your particular application need. I'd like to see JE, Jun, HKS, all these guys gaurantee - or mabye produce evidence for - a motor for 300K, doubt it.

 

[nsxotic911]

Back to the Ti retainer issue.....

Anybody know where I can get some Chromoly valve retainer made?

TIA.

Henry.

Just use stock and do oil sample analysis every now and then. When was the last time you heard the stock steel retainers fail? Never.

My case may very well be a one-off. Lots of people have this part, and not many have reported failures, though some have. Just because I have, doesn't mean you will in the next 50K miles or so.

I don't know an aftermarket company (or many... except comptech through Honda) that warranty their product. Why is that? If I'm going to spend thousands of dollars on your special alluminum/steel/titanium pieces, it seems to me I should at least get some gaurantee, even on the parts, if it's determined that the part fails. Sure, there are legal, cost, policy things to work out (eg, replace the part, not the engine.. as an example...), but SOME sort of warranty could be in place. It would require the manufcaturer to go through a good bit of quality assurance, test their product for thousands and thousands of miles etc.

I'd pay 50% - 100% more because it gives me more assurance that they took all the quality assurance they know of.. History and reputation talks, I agree, but like I said previously, how many FI motors go 100K without failing? It's always blamed on "high stress" etc... but then it seems to me that the motor wsa pushed beyond what the true limits are and those limits were either ignored, or too aggressive/inflacted. Not because someone wanted to do mischief.. but because it was a best estimte based on limited/moderate amount of data. My Ford Taurus motor is running strong at 130K miles.

PS: I also called one of the companies that I think the retainer was purchased from leaving a message and asking them about any history of the retainers thining or failing. Guess what? No call back.... Not even "nope, never happened."

 

[swerve2007]

just to chime in-
as we know there have been reports of blown motors due to spun rod bearings- if i am not mistaken that actually may be the single largest cause of catastrophic failure on nsx, from what i gather (i am not talking about 'dropped valves' due to driver error or lack of maintenance with timing belt)- please correct if i am wrong.
so, there is a possibilty that your increased ti content is an indication of wear between the rod and its bearing which would make sense if your ti content is large and increasing.

 

[nsxotic911]

just to chime in-
as we know there have been reports of blown motors due to spun rod bearings- if i am not mistaken that actually may be the single largest cause of catastrophic failure on nsx, from what i gather (i am not talking about 'dropped valves' due to driver error or lack of maintenance with timing belt)- please correct if i am wrong.
so, there is a possibilty that your increased ti content is an indication of wear between the rod and its bearing which would make sense if your ti content is large and increasing.

Interesting.

What would the parts that need to be replaced if that was the case? (and it didnt go 100% before it..) please don't say the rod itself (I know it will have some wear..)

From looking at the rest of the results, iron, lead, copper and nickel are not unreasonable imho. Do you think otherwise?

I have included the 2nd sampe in the origional post.

 

[JeffShoots]

It's either the retainer which has been reported to thin out - and break - or worse.............
To Jeffshoots, as far as the titanium retainers - just do a regular oil sample and you'll see. If no titanium, you have nothing to worry about. I only saw it after about 20K miles like I said. The supplier that I got may very well be different than what Shad has..........

You have valid points and I don't disagree but a modified motor of any kind is not designed to put out twice the HP/Tq as designed.

So you say I can do it and your correct but maintenance is now a priority. I have been using Ti Retainers in my street bike builds for years and Ti does age and break down (why I will replace critical fasteners made of Ti) and why my bike is broke down and serviced for valves ect. EACH YEAR for that riding season.

Next TB change put in New retainers, Billet oil pump, Pan baffle, and Accu (if you track the car) all preventative maintenance and go drive :smile:

BTW: Your "preemptive harmoic balancer replacement" hopefully going to be a better option soon :smile:

 

[swerve2007]

Interesting.

What would the parts that need to be replaced if that was the case? (and it didnt go 100% before it..) please don't say the rod itself (I know it will have some wear..)

From looking at the rest of the results, iron, lead, copper and nickel are not unreasonable imho. Do you think otherwise?

I have included the 2nd sampe in the origional post.

lead, iron and copper are ingredients of plain bearings (which i assume is the type used on rods in nsx). this all could be a result of the bearing spinning under high load. obviously if it just spins without seizure to the crank it will not exactly fail until it wears down thin enaugh to produce a knock- then you will know:smile: i don't know how you could verify this without engine tear-down- you could drop the pan, pull the caps and check if the bearings have moved, but without actually pulling them out it is hard to determine. if you are seeing the contamination increase it might be a good idea to drop the pan. unfortunately if the bearing is spinning there is a chance that wear on the rod has increased beyond tolerance but that has to be measured. obviously bearing replacement would be the smallest expense but rod might be needed as well.
anyone else?

 

[4mulacar]

I would like to pose a question but first I must introduce myself and background. I 'm new to the forum and get my first NSX this Friday with a flight to Anaheim to transfer title and pay the residual from my initial deposit on a "95 NSX-T. I have worked in the machine tool industry for the last 23 years in various capacities but started working life as a CNC electronic technician at the the carbon fiber kite factory in Seattle (Boeing). During the last 14 years my job has evloved into CBM (condition based maintance) where we use technology to determine where in the life cycle curve a particular piece of rotating machinery is in a instant in time (snap shot of our sampling of data) and yes I'm a electromechanical Geek. We have tribologist in our group that have helped my amatuer racing for the same amount of time I've been on the CBM team. Now to my question I have been taught by these guys to get a true reading of any oil sample you have to get a dynamic sample of the oil (which requires plumbing of the system to facilitate this) and that you can never get a true indication of wear metals without this sampling method. I realize this is tough to do on a automobile engine so my question is where you able to get a sample via this method or did you have to dip the tank? Next I may have missed it, but was ferrography (looking for magnetic metal particles) done in the report? Last do you have a baseline of any NSX engine to help you make a quantifiable report. If the answer is no to all of the questions then I will set down with my counterparts and try to determine a safe and sane plumbing method that will take the rigors of every day driving to facilitate the fantastic effort you have made. I commend you for your approach to a very tough endeavor and to understand what is happening. You can probably tell from my avatar which is a picture of my race car at my home in Seattle. Thanks for a great forum and I hope that I will contribute in the future.

 

[Daedalus]

I would like to pose a question but first I must introduce myself and background. I 'm new to the forum and get my first NSX this Friday with a flight to Anaheim to transfer title and pay the residual from my initial deposit on a "95 NSX-T. I have worked in the machine tool industry for the last 23 years in various capacities but started working life as a CNC electronic technician at the the carbon fiber kite factory in Seattle (Boeing). During the last 14 years my job has evloved into CBM (condition based maintance) where we use technology to determine where in the life cycle curve a particular piece of rotating machinery is in a instant in time (snap shot of our sampling of data) and yes I'm a electromechanical Geek. We have tribologist in our group that have helped my amatuer racing for the same amount of time I've been on the CBM team. Now to my question I have been taught by these guys to get a true reading of any oil sample you have to get a dynamic sample of the oil (which requires plumbing of the system to facilitate this) and that you can never get a true indication of wear metals without this sampling method. I realize this is tough to do on a automobile engine so my question is where you able to get a sample via this method or did you have to dip the tank? Next I may have missed it, but was ferrography (looking for magnetic metal particles) done in the report? Last do you have a baseline of any NSX engine to help you make a quantifiable report. If the answer is no to all of the questions then I will set down with my counterparts and try to determine a safe and sane plumbing method that will take the rigors of every day driving to facilitate the fantastic effort you have made. I commend you for your approach to a very tough endeavor and to understand what is happening. You can probably tell from my avatar which is a picture of my race car at my home in Seattle. Thanks for a great forum and I hope that I will contribute in the future.

Interesting! Can you provide some better understanding about the need for a dynamic sample? How are the characteristics different between the oil being pumped through the galleries and the oil in the pan?

Good luck with the new car.

 

[4mulacar]

Yes I can, from what I have been taught the dynamic sample gives you a true indication of what is presently happening in the lubrication system. This allows you to make a determination of the health of the surrounding peripheral systems. When you dip the tank you have no idea if the particles have adhered to each other thereby increasing their size. The original author to this thread is on the correct path with oil analysis by indentification of all rotating parts and their makeup allows you to make a call as to the source of the offending part or parts. If for example a metal particle (titainium) was one micron in size during the baseline and 100 hours later in operation the same wear metal (titainium) was now two microns in size you now have a second data point to plot and so on until a trend line establishes. Now for sake of argument here we must determine the sampling interval to make this effort cost effective in relation to the repair costs decision (run to failure). I personally would sample if it is affordable until I have enough data to help me determine the proper sampling intervals but I'm spoiled from doing this type of work for a living and this is not always prudent. The dynamic sampling works well to detrmine condition based service intervals of preventive maintenance. Most particle count testing I have seen works well for non ferrous wear particle and ferrography works well for metal particles that are magnetic. As for my own racing engines Toyota Atlantic 4A-GE I do not sample these as the life cycle is to short to make this cost effective (1000 miles) engine life predicated on how high you rev the engine and I normally shift at 9700-10K RPM. However my street engine in my new to me NSX I would like to follow this path of oil sampling because I see merit in this.

 

[4mulacar]

I hope I answered your question fully,I'm unfortunatly passionate about my work and the gift of gab also comes out so if I missed something you asked please repost and if I do not know the answer I will get it from a certified expert.

 

[Swift]

I would call Supertech or some other company and send in OEM retainers and ask for a 304 stainless steel one to be made and then nitride treated. That should solve any problems. just a theory. should cost around $400

 

[nsxotic911]

I would call Supertech or some other company and send in OEM retainers and ask for a 304 stainless steel one to be made and then nitride treated. That should solve any problems. just a theory. should cost around $400

Ha, I'm going with OEM

 

[nsxhk]

There must be ways to inspect these ti retainers from time to time, right?

Henry.

 

[nsxotic911]

I got my 3rd oil sample back on this, with interesting results.
...The titanium content is down, but not out...very interesting***

This is after I put the stock airbox and filter back in and the moly went down, WAY DOWN, from 70 average to .... 3.

On my SC sample, it went down from 164 to 15
Can anyone hear "stock airbox is best"

I'm still not convinced I don't have a problem with the retainer and/or that it's related to a lower compression on one of the cylinders, but this is a reading that it hasn't blown up YET.

High copper, anyone? hmmm..........

 

[goldNSX]

Thanks for the update. Maybe I've missed it, what air box/filter have you been using before the stock one?

 

[jond]

I got my 3rd oil sample back on this, with interesting results.
...The titanium content is down, but not out...very interesting***

This is after I put the stock airbox and filter back in and the moly went down, WAY DOWN, from 70 average to .... 3.

On my SC sample, it went down from 164 to 15
Can anyone hear "stock airbox is best"

I'm still not convinced I don't have a problem with the retainer and/or that it's related to a lower compression on one of the cylinders, but this is a reading that it hasn't blown up YET.

High copper, anyone? hmmm..........

Interesting. It says you added make-up oil during the test?
Also, what brand is this sample from?

Last, any chance I get a copy of windows 7 beta from you?

 

[nsxotic911]

Interesting. It says you added make-up oil during the test?
Also, what brand is this sample from?

Last, any chance I get a copy of windows 7 beta from you?

HAHA... pm me offline and we can talk about it, but I can't do anything illegal, I can promise you that. I think we go public soon.. and you can download 10 GB

I actually did add make up oil of few quarts, 3 -4 .. and that's probably what makes it not as clean of sample I have "Reneable Lube" http://www.renewablelube.com/ BioSyn oil that is basically $10/ quart and supposed to last nearly a million miles so I've been cheap about throwing it all out... ya know?

...Either way, I guess it's not as bad as it seems and the oil does real well. I also drove the car a lot less hard since I noticed I may have some issues.... I think how well you beat the crap out of the car does have a difference It's a honda, but oil is oil See my post on the Canton filter guidance of 20x wear increase in race conditions..

I have to do a compression check soon and see how the rest holds up.

On the copper in the SC- kind of high. Do you think it could be the weight of the oil? I had 5W-40 in there during the winter, vs the 20W-50. I'm going with 10W-40 next and see the results

 

[nsxotic911]

Thanks for the update. Maybe I've missed it, what air box/filter have you been using before the stock one?

I had the CT Box + Uni filter. It makes more power, sounds cooler and bad asss but my testing has shown that it just lets more stuff through and puts more wear.

What really concerns me about the CT box is the lack of a seal around the filter/box. We're talking maybe 1/10th of an inch, maybe 1/25 of an inch, maybe smaller, but HUGE in relative terms when you consider the how big the dust/dirt particles really are that can ge through.

My gut is that the K&N filters better, but I really don't like the lack of a seal.....

 

[nsxotic911]

Updated oil sample.

Titanium content down, but.. quite possibly contaminated by the fact that I didn't chance the oil filter or just the fact that it's still wearing down and a potential big problem down the road.

The fact that it's "low" could also be that it's being filtered very well -
I have the Canton-$100-super-duper 8 micron filter w/ no bypass valve. It's it's supposed to run 10K miles on the street easily, which I trust and highly recommend it. The swappable filter is a pain the ass though to take out , and I think I'm going to have to call Canton to get their help

Blackstone says the engine is good, but the contrarian in me still says, "wtf? why is titanium still there?" if it is the retainers and they were to break, I'd lose a valve-> then engine -> supercharger..

The 1200 mile number is probably a bit off.. as it's probably closer to 2000 miles as I don't pay attention to the exact oci. Given the titanium issue + SC, it's because I'm paranoid that I'm changing it too much. If that number was to be something really high, like 40, then I'd stop everything immediately, if it's not already too late.

Hopefully, I can take off my head (to the engine that is, calm down..) as soon as it doesn't look as nice outside and find out for good what's going on, and whether it's just a little wear and tear. I can then easily run 3000 miles with the RLI 10W30HD and take a sample.

 

[BrakeExpert]

I apologize if this is too much off topic.

I have run and still do run 5W-30 Amsoil in my civic (D16Y7 engine.) When I first swapped from standard oil the engine felt "revvier" . IAfter comparing to Mobil1, the engine just felt a touch better with the Amsoil. I did have a leak at the distributor through no fault of my own, and because this is a full synthetic, it did leak a bit more than I expect natural oil would have.

I was told AMSOIL uses a higher phosphorus content than other oils, but is of no concern on aluminum engines (these were muscle car people mentioning this). I am still worried about that titanium content - does the NSX's connecting rods have collars at the connecting rods or is it rod to wrist pin?