Salvaged title concealed from buyer

[Steven Allen]

Interesting story that may be a warning to others. Last month I purchased a new DD (Honda Accord) in Sacramento CA. Car had a clean Carfax report. My brother who lives in that part of CA looked at it and gave it a thumbs up. So to be sure nothing was missed we took the car to the Honda dealer in the area. He provided a PPI in which he indicated it was a good car. A slight collision in the left front required the bumper to repainted. The service adviser did not mention that there was axle shudder (noted by the mechanic) on the phone when reporting the results of the PPI. I only saw this later after the deal was consummated and the paperwork for the PPI was included with the car. Had the adviser mentioned axle shudder it would have triggered an immediate response of let's look at this a bit closer.

My brother delivered the car to me. When driving it he felt it was "slightly" out of alignment and I noticed the same thing. I brought the car to a Honda dealer in the Monterey Bay area. The shop foreman looked at the car. In 7 minutes he said, "the impact in the front was substantial, there is frame and sub-damage, the entire car has been repainted and this car is suspicious and looks like a salvaged auto". He further commented, "I would never suggest a client buy this car."

Later the car was brought to the DMV. DMV said, "the car was reported as salvaged by an insurance company 1/2013."
We spoke to the dealer who failed to provide info about the axle issue and the flawed PPI and they indicated they would only refund the PPI cost. After constructing a press release documenting their efforts and a request to their operations mgr asking about who accepts legal service in their company for court filed documents they changed their tune.
They apologized and offered to buy the car from me.

I purchased a different DD two days later after the dealer picked up the salvaged car and provided payment for it.
I hope this story provides some helpful info to others.

 

[996garage]

Thanks for sharing the story. So did you have your attorney draft up the "press release" document that caused them to change their tune, or was it just a simple document that you wrote up yourself listing the chain of events?

So who did you actually buy the car from? If the vehicle was salvaged, it normally would have to be stated on the pink slip? How did they get around disclosing that?

 

[BATMANs]

press release.

LOL gotta love the choice words.....

 

[chumch]

I'd be interested to know how car fax would have handled it since they seem to promote their buy back guarantee.

 

[joboy77]

I was thinking the same thing. Car fax should have covered it if the dealer didn't.

 

[SilverStone05]

Another lesson: NEVER purchase a car sight unseen.

 

[Yinzer]

I'm fairly sure my 2002 Accord that I bought from an Ohio dealership was in an accident prior to my picking it up as a CPO w/spotless carfax. The "story" was that the prior owner didn't like it and almost immediately traded it back for a used Ford Mustang GT, which made as much sense to me as it likely does to you here. He assured me that there was no funny business since the PO was a repeat customer, the service manager knew him, the car was scrutinized by the dealership before taking it back in trade, yadda yadda yadda. I wrote it off as typical salesman BS and disregarded it since the car drove very well and there were too many positives with the condition, price, and 5 or 6 years of CPO warranty just in case.

I noticed a few months after buying that the front fascia looked juuuust slightly pushed back compared to the fender but I didn't really suspect anything until around 8 years and 160k miles - found some overspray behind the the fender. Because it had treated me so well then and even now at 12 years and 225k miles, I didn't sweat it too much. But I'll definitely trust but verify independently next time.

 

[Bigglezworth]

Another lesson: NEVER purchase a car sight unseen.

That's an inaccurate comment. There are MANY buyers who have zero mechanical know how and rely on third party expertise to confirm the condition of the vehicle they are looking to purchase. The OP clearly indicated they had the car inspected by an authorized Honda dealer which would be as good as any inspection would get. They passed the car so the OP purchased it. No where in this story does it suggest that the buyer purchased the car unseen or without obtaining 'professional' support from those in the know.

 

[SilverStone05]

That's an inaccurate comment. There are MANY buyers who have zero mechanical know how and rely on third party expertise to confirm the condition of the vehicle they are looking to purchase. The OP clearly indicated they had the car inspected by an authorized Honda dealer which would be as good as any inspection would get. They passed the car so the OP purchased it. No where in this story does it suggest that the buyer purchased the car unseen or without obtaining 'professional' support from those in the know.

Unseen as in seeing it/driving it yourself. The OP clearly stated both he and his brother suspected something was up with the car the first time they drove it.

Also-

I think from the story it is safe to assume that this particular Honda Dealership's inspection wasn't as good as any inspection would get.

 

[B2FiNiTY]

What this thread needs is an update from the OP answering the questions posted in this thread.

 

[Steven Allen]

The car was purchased from a private party. The pink slip did not state salvaged. The car had numerous qualified eyes look at the car and all pronounced it a "nice car". BTW I purchased my NSX in St Louis the same exact way.

I think the dealer who did the PPi changed his tune for several reasons.

1) He would lose in court and be responsible for consequential damages.
2) He would lose the PR battle and saw that quickly. I posted on Yelp the BBB and filed a complaint with consumer affairs. The dealer also received a call from a local TV station asking them about my press release.
3) I informed them I would create a website dedicated to consumer complaints about them.

In the long run it was less expensive to do the right thing and purchase the car from me. I would have never owned the car if not for their flawed PPI.

 

[robr]

I'm not really sure how I feel about this. I've never heard of anybody being legally on the hook for a PPI failure. If that were the case, I think it would be difficult to get anybody to to take $200 to do a PPI if they might be facing tens of thousands in potential liability. You'd have to start carrying PPI insurance.

 

[myw]

I'm not really sure how I feel about this. I've never heard of anybody being legally on the hook for a PPI failure. If that were the case, I think it would be difficult to get anybody to to take $200 to do a PPI if they might be facing tens of thousands in potential liability. You'd have to start carrying PPI insurance.

Actually this is why a few Porsche dealerships stopped performing ppl's... Too much liability

 

[Steven Allen]

Keep this point in mind:

"I brought the car to a Honda dealer in the Monterey Bay area. The shop foreman looked at the car. In 7 minutes he said, "the impact in the front was substantial, there is frame and sub-damage, the entire car has been repainted and this car is suspicious and looks like a salvaged auto". He further commented, "I would never suggest a client buy this car."

 

[Ritesh]

Never trust carfax. Btw - you wanna read an interesting story about a Ferrari F355 and salvage title then try this!! Warning you will be waisting 15-18 hours on it.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/fe...-bordeaux-interior-19-hres-17k-just-$59k.html

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Another lesson: NEVER purchase a car sight unseen.

Not true. I bought a 997 GT3 off ebay from a Chicago Porsche dearler. It was perfect. I bought a Maserati for my wife a month ago sight unseen. No issues.

 

[robr]

I purchased my NSX from Chicago sight unseen.... after keN SaX checked it out for me
Also my G35 from Arizona (PPI done in AZ) and my
M3 from PA (also had a local PPI done)

 

[Steven Allen]

The issue is if you provide a service and are negligent to an extreme are you liable for the consequences? I and the courts say YES.

 

[robr]

I hear you Steve, I think this will just lead to shops either not doing PPIs or making the customer sign a waiver agreeing that they are not responsible for anything missed.

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Wasting one hour was enough, what an idiot. I made it to post #350 before cashing in my chips on that thread.

Never trust carfax. Btw - you wanna read an interesting story about a Ferrari F355 and salvage title then try this!! Warning you will be waisting 15-18 hours on it.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/fe...-bordeaux-interior-19-hres-17k-just-$59k.html

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Not true. I bought a 997 GT3 off ebay from a Chicago Porsche dearler. It was perfect. I bought a Maserati for my wife a month ago sight unseen. No issues.

 

[Hard Five]

I hear you Steve, I think this will just lead to shops either not doing PPIs or making the customer sign a waiver agreeing that they are not responsible for anything missed.

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Wasting one hour was enough, what an idiot. I made it to post #350 before cashing in my chips on that thread.

Should have gone a little further, somewhere around post 370 someone who previously purchased from the Dbag OP chimes in on the Ferrarri he bought and the 47K it took to fix all of its problems. That is a great thread.

 

[Steven Allen]

If a plumber provides a service that is so woefully negligent that does substantial damage to your home is he responsible for the consequential damages? I think the issue should be framed just that way. If I provide a service and receive consideration of for that service should I be responsible to provide you a standard of service consistent with your expectations. If the answer is I am not prepared to do so then do not offer the service.

 

[Hard Five]

If a plumber provides a service that is so woefully negligent that does substantial damage to your home is he responsible for the consequential damages? I think the issue should be framed just that way. If I provide a service and receive consideration of for that service should I be responsible to provide you a standard of service consistent with your expectations. If the answer is I am not prepared to do so then do not offer the service.

There is a material difference between paying a plumber to a very specific job, vs paying a mechanic/dealership to do a PPI. A PPI is a mostly visual inspection, and it is impossible to visually inspect all areas of a vehicle. You cannot hold a PPI to the same standard as a certified plumber (or other professional) doing a specific job. Please try to find any unknown issues vs find and fix this specific problem are different.

With that being said it is quite easy to inspect a vehicle for visual clues of certain issues like impacts. Car bodies are welded together and seam sealer is used extensively throughout vehicles. It is quite easy to differentiate factory applied sealer covered by factory paint vs aftermarket seam sealer applied by Joe Schmo in a shop. Furthermore, seams are a great place to look as sealer can crack and bend due to impacts and isn't always noticed, so it's a good place to look to see if an impact has occurred weather its been fixed or not. With that said, without dropping the motor or removing interior trim, you cant see throughout the car. Pulling back trim pieces will give you a glimpse but not the whole picture. Whats reasonable in a 2-3 hour inspection? Lots of grey area here.

The takeaway is another person was easily able to determine there was a significant impact. Getting that person to document how/why they were able to see such an impact history so easily would be the key in showing the original PPI was done incorrectly. Being negligent (doing a bad job - you learning they suck and you should have picked a better party to do the PPI) and grossly negligent (They did such a bad job they legally become liable) are two very different things. The bad PPI might have missed something, but if he can show he compression tested the motor, drained the motor/transmission to look for particulates, found and documented a number of "issues" that would need to be corrected but didn't substantially effect the vehicles value enough for you to not buy the car (blown out bulbs, blown fuses, small radiator leak,) he can show he DID inspect the vehicle.
Did he miss something? Yes.
Was it obvious? Speculative and hard to prove.
Would you ever use them again? Clearly no.
Are they legally responsible to literally see every issue? No. No one is perfect and everyone is allowed to miss something.

On the flip side if you can show he missed 5, 10, or dozens of obvious signs the car had significant issues, then you might be able to show they went from not just doing a bad job, to doing such a bad job he/they are legally responsible to rectify their errors.

I think the media/legal letter route was the right choice as public opinion is powerful and would be on your side. Whether you would have legally won is a different question and could easily go either way given the specific details on what was/wasn't done.

 

[Steven Allen]

I am not sure I 100% agree with some of your thoughts. However, I LOVE the way you have thoughtfully framed them.

 

[SilverStone05]

Never trust carfax. Btw - you wanna read an interesting story about a Ferrari F355 and salvage title then try this!! Warning you will be waisting 15-18 hours on it.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/fe...-bordeaux-interior-19-hres-17k-just-$59k.html

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Not true. I bought a 997 GT3 off ebay from a Chicago Porsche dearler. It was perfect. I bought a Maserati for my wife a month ago sight unseen. No issues.

LOL.

"NEVER trust Carfax"...but it's ok to believe an individual seller or dealership and purchase a car you've never personally seen or driven yourself.

You aren't making sense, Ritesh.

For every story like your Porsche and Maserati- there is a story like the OP's.

Keep purchasing cars you haven't laid eyes on. You'll get burnt eventually.

 

[TomCat]

I would think a reputable PPI would include a checklist that would note what is included for the $s.