Speeding may now be estimated by officer

[naaman]

My mother told me about this, and anyone who believes it's not about money, is completely lying to themselves. I can only await the harassment to ensue.

Blue Ash Police Department will have a FIELD Day with this shit!

It might be about money from the bean counter's point of view, but for peace officers, its much more personal than that. I can tell you right now: I have only EVER written a ticket for a criminal violation (i.e. DUI, suspended license, etc). That doesn't mean I won't pull someone over WHO I OBSERVE DO SOMETHING WRONG (i.e. speeding) just to see what else they're up to.

There is this "saying" that we use in law enforcement when a violator "gets away." We say, "Meh... we'll get him next time." Because there WILL be a next time. And if there isn't, then he must have actually had a real good reason for speeding (or whatever). Criminal behavior and generally illegal acts are habitual. And many, many, MANY criminals have so little (if any) respect for the law that they will overtly behave in such a way as to attract attention from law enforcement.

Anyway, it's like Cairo said about leaving something for the next officer: if they're stand up citizens just having a bad day, they will probably not even get a ticket (though, they might), and even if they do, it'll probably be their only one in life. But I can't tell you how many people I stop for a busted tail light that wind up having a suspended license or wind up being DUI etc. I NEVER write for defective equipment. I just use it as an excuse to see whose driving the car.

There was one time where I pulled a guy over for a defective brake light. I asked for his license. He handed me a mangled state ID card. I ran his numbers and BAM!!! Wanted Felon!!! I arrested him and searched his car. Found $2000 in cash, a couple little baggies of meth, some marijuana (personal use), and a .380 pistol with 7 rounds of teflon coated ammo!!!

 

[SilverStone05]

It might be about money from the bean counter's point of view, but for peace officers, its much more personal than that.

It's personal because they are scared about losing their jobs. More tickets, more revenue, more people that won't lose their jobs. I actually don't blame them for that.

But the execution is deplorable. Radaring the onramps in rush hour traffic? A lot of times you HAVE to accelerate faster than the flow of traffic to make a smooth ingress and not disrupt the orderly flow.

These speed traps are supposed to make the highways safer. But that's kind of hard to believe when speed traps cause drivers to brake erratically-even if they aren't speeding, and when officers are walking onto the freeway pointing at cars and causing drivers to swerve and freak out.

I think tactics like this do more harm than good.

 

[naaman]

What I meant by "personal" has nothing to do with "money." The basis for the need for law enforcement doesn't come from speed traps, and therefore, the job security of a particular police officer does not ride on how many tickets he writes. Law enforcement has been around much longer than cars and speed limits have been.

Every time I see a DUI get busted (for example), I'm glad because those turd bags drive on the same highways that my wife drives my kids around on. 'Nuff said.

If you're speeding and get caught, deal with it.

Speed enforcement during rush hour? Never heard of it... Officers initiating freeway traffic stops on foot? Where are you from, SilverStone?

 

[naaman]

ex 1: Police pull you over and arrest your passenger and yourself on suspicion of robbery of a store. Almost immediately the vehicle is now forfeit and will be sold in a matter of weeks. This is long before your day in court, or even if the charges are dropped; it doesn't matter if you are exonerated and the true perpetrators have been captured/convicted. The only recourse is to repurchase your auto and I do mean repurchase....not just some hefty storage and towing BS... but a price based on the actual value of the car. You must pay what is arrived at as the value.....and if u don't do it it is sold. Unbelievable.

To whom did this ACTUALLY happen? It is illegal to seize anything without PROBABLE CAUSE (using the reasonable person standard). Check out the 4th amendment.

You can't just arrest someone on "suspicion." If this ACTUALLY happened, then those people have a valid suit against the government. Private attorneys would be all over this.

Let me break it down:

If I pull you over because I "think" you robbed a store, I'm going to be looking for the money or the merchandise that you supposedly stole. I'm also going to have witnesses placing you AND your car at the scene of the crime AT THE TIME THE CRIME WAS COMMITTED. I'm also going to have other data before I even initiate the traffic stop. For example, I'll have your name and a description of the car, or I'll have the plate and a description of your build/face/clothing etc. I will almost "know" that you are the guy or that your car is the car before I pull you over. The purpose of the traffic stop is to confirm or refute my "suspicion." If I pull you over and find in your vehicle a bunch of money, some brand new merchandise (without receipts), and a loaded gun, AND you and/or your vehicle matches the description of the perpetrator, then I definitely have PROBABLE CAUSE to arrest you.

If I stop you and you have nothing out of the ordinary in the car, then I don't have enough to make the arrest.

We get A LOT of complaints that we just can't do anything about because of the fact that probable cause does not exist. The complaint may be valid and true, but there is not enough information to justify violating someone's rights. At times, this is a frustrating part of the job, because we may know for a fact that someone is guilty, but the evidence to prove it is dramatically lacking.

 

[SilverStone05]

the job security of a particular police officer does not ride on how many tickets he writes.....

That isn't true. I have a couple friends in law enforcement whose performance is measured by their "activity." Writing tickets is a measure of their activity.

Every time I see a DUI get busted (for example), I'm glad because those turd bags drive on the same highways that my wife drives my kids around on. 'Nuff said

Right...but how many folks are drunk on their way home from work on a Tuesday?

If you're speeding and get caught, deal with it.

I agree. And no one is disputing that.

Speed enforcement during rush hour? Never heard of it... Officers initiating freeway traffic stops on foot? Where are you from, SilverStone?

Yes. Not one. But 4 of them. Two were on motorcycles. When they pull someone over...they march into the middle of the lane...point and motion to the side of the road. Yes I was appalled.

For what its worth, in my 3 years of commuting downtown, I had not once seen cops radaring during rush hour. Until last week.

 

[gleibig]

I can't even recall how many no front tag tickets I have gotten in the past 3 years. NEVER speeding, the sole reason for me being pulled over was no front tag. There really has to be some other more serious crime going on that these guys should be worrying about. It hurts them in the long run IMO, who the hell is going to give them a dime when they come calling for donations? Sure as hell not me.

 

[naaman]

I don't know if any of you have heard the story about a bunch of Army Rangers who robbed a bank a few years ago... it was a perfect heist, actually. The ONLY reason they got caught was because they forgot to remove the FRONT license plate from the get away car, and a witness passed the plate number along to the cops.

 

[naaman]

Right...but how many folks are drunk on their way home from work on a Tuesday?

How easy is it to find enough room to dirve 100mph on a Sunday morning when my wife is on her way to grandma's house?

DUI was just an example. Uninsured motorists, medicated drivers, people who have been driving for days on end without rest, unlicensed teenagers joy riding in their parents' cars... this may not be stuff that YOU hear about every day, but believe me... it's happening... right now in fact.

As for "activity," one of the things we see in law enforcement is that the number traffic accidents in a given time period varies inversely with the number of tickets written during an overlapping time period.

Anyway... this debate could go on endlessly... I would encourage some of you guys to do a ride along with your local department to get a glimpse of what's really going on in an LEO's mind when he's on the job.

 

[Hasdrubal]

My first month of field training, I think I averaged about 60% arrest rate of self initiated contacts. That's traffic stops, people hanging out in the park after dark, even people walking down the street at odd hours (they don't have to talk to me or give ID, but if they do, and they have a warrant they're going to jail). If it wasn't a warrant, it was a suspended driver, and usually without insurance. I haven't even been out there for a year yet, and I've pulled guns, heroin, meth, etc, out of cars.

It's difficult to go look for "real" crime without getting dispatched to a call. We try, say if there's a run of burglaries in a neighborhood, we do extra patrols there, but unless you're unmarked or some kind of specialty unit, it's hard to be as sneaky as television leads you to believe. Many times, traffic stops are how we find these guys.

By the way, I don't have radar, have no plans to get it, and I've written one speeding ticket ever.

 

[naaman]

The HALO effect. I actually prefer the "presence" method of law enforcement. You know what they say: an ounce of prevention....

It's funny: whenever I find threads like this, it reminds me how much people misunderstand the law and the law enforcement profession. Truth be told, a police officer has a LOT to lose by doing his job poorly or by misusing his police powers. Unfortunately, people get their "schooling" on law enforcement from watching TV. For example, one night I was watching a house just in case a violent offender returned home. He eventually did. I called him out and told him to face away and place his hands behind his back. His reply: "you can't cuff me till you read me my rights." Another time, we arrested the spouse of a service member for assault and put him in the D-cell. He kept saying: "you can't keep me in here: I'm a civilian."

 

[steveny]

Speed enforcement during rush hour? Never heard of it... Officers initiating freeway traffic stops on foot? Where are you from, SilverStone?

They do both here. The patrols are out in the morning when everyone is on their way to work. I luckily don't have to be on the roads during those times, but for the officer it's the best time of the day to write tickets to the most amount of people. What sucks is it's just people trying to get to work.

As for officers on foot. Here they HIDE in the grass with a radar gun then jump out and point for you to pull over. If you don't pull over they have a car up the road waiting. Same with the road blocks. They set them up around a bend and check your car out for any violations before they allow you to go, kind of like a toll booth.

As of late the officers are now hiding on PRIVATE property WAY off the road using binoculars to see if people have their seat belts on or if they are on the cell phone. I am seeing this more and more everyday. I saw a state car about 400 yards off the road WAY out in the country at the back of a corn field. One guy in the drivers seat another guy on the hood with binoculars.

The cities and towns have increased enforcement drastically and one city has even admitted in the local paper that they now have a 'quota' for each officer. When the economy was booming I NEVER saw someone pulled over in that city, now I see someone every other block.

 

[SilverStone05]

It's funny: whenever I find threads like this, it reminds me how much people misunderstand the law and the law enforcement profession.

When I see threads like this it reminds me of all the decent cops who passively accept and condone bad cops decisions/actions by turning a blind eye to all the arrogant, judgment clouded, power abusing officers who have no place in law enforcement.

Unfortunately, people get their "schooling" on law enforcement from watching TV.

That may be true elsewhere, but it appears in this thread that most folks, including me, are giving their real life experiences with law enforcement. Not what they saw on TV.

You can't generalize ALL police officers....

But when individuals witness that the majority of LEO's are rude, arrogant, and readily apt to abuse their power, those individuals will most likely form a negative opinion regarding all police officers.

 

[steveny]

Truth be told, a police officer has a LOT to lose by doing his job poorly or by misusing his police powers.

Yeah, kinda like the day I was driving down the road just after a hard rain and this guy in a ford escort runs a stop sign to get in front of me, because if he made a full stop he would not have time to also be in front of me. So I have to deal with the spray off his car now and not vise versa. He then drives 10 under the limit. So I pass. He turns on the lights behind his grill. LOL. I think I'd call that abuse, double standard, hypocrisy. I pulled over but not until I was in front of the sheriff's station which was just up the road. he says while stuffing his shirt in his pants "you should be careful who you are passing. I said, "I thought I'd be safe passing someone who ran a stop sign, I didn't think an officer would do such a thing."


I'm sure there are great officers out there and I have met some, have some in the family, and have friends that are perfect examples. Not all cops are bad.

 

[HIJACKER]

Speed enforcement during rush hour? Never heard of it... Officers initiating freeway traffic stops on foot? Where are you from, SilverStone?

They also do that where I live. Fairfax County and Arlington County Police, just outside DC. In the morning, 4-5 of them will stand on the onramps and flag over vehicles with dead tags, inspection stickers, or tint and write a citation each time.

They also pile up in groups off the HOV ramps and cite those driving alone with $500 tickets. I can name off dozens of places they park, stand, walk out in traffic, etc. and have anywhere from 2-5 vehicles pulled over at a time.

In fact, back in 2003 - I actually had a police officer walk AWAY FROM a car accident scene he was dealing with to me (on the otherside of the intersection) and wrote me a ticket for illegal tint (I was 20% and the limit was 35%).

 

[CL65 Captain]

yes, it's a game.... sneaky cops taking radar on on-ramps, etc and we think "that's not fair". But the truth of the matter is there is a speed limit and if we break it and get caught then we are breaking that law.

Back to the OP, I think it's BS that a "guestimated" speed can be used. If you are writing me a ticket, you are charging me with breaking the law and you better be damn sure that I did indeed break the law, not that you estimated it. I'm innocent until proven guilty and an estimated speed is not "proven guilty" to me. If the speed limit is 65 and I am doing 66 can the officer's trained (complete BS) estimate tell the difference because 66 is indeed breaking the law.

Oh, btw my crooked neighbor cop estimated my speed in the neighborhood at 44 in a 20. Shame that my car has a GPS/track datalogger that records on a SD card that showed the highest speed at 22. Went straight to his Chief with the datalogger and second by second printout of time/lat-lon/speed, etc (It's a long story that I have previously written about). Haven't been bothered by him since, but he's still on the force. Cops are people, and people lie.

 

[CL65 Captain]

http://www.lawfirms.com/resources/criminal-defense/traffic-tickets/cross-examine-officer-speeding-ticket.htm

 

[Hasdrubal]

CL65, I remember that story. There are far too many places where there are crooked cops, and it's pretty hard to get rid of them.

I remember watching the news during Katrina, and seeing a reporter trying to interview two black women cops who were looting a WalMart. They were pushing carts full of merchandise, and telling the reporter they were just making sure nobody got violent, or some such nonsense.

My department has been around since 1996, and I'm told we've fired five or six people for official misconduct of one form or another. I think we've got a great bunch of guys now, but I guess it shows that no place is perfect.

As for speeding, it sounds like the guys on the East Coast have a lot more free time than we do here in WA. I've been averaging maybe three tickets a month lately, and most of the time those go along with a suspended driver arrest.

 

[SilverStone05]

yes, it's a game.... sneaky cops taking radar on on-ramps, etc and we think "that's not fair". But the truth of the matter is there is a speed limit and if we break it and get caught then we are breaking that law.

Back to the OP, I think it's BS that a "guestimated" speed can be used. If you are writing me a ticket, you are charging me with breaking the law and you better be damn sure that I did indeed break the law, not that you estimated it. I'm innocent until proven guilty and an estimated speed is not "proven guilty" to me. If the speed limit is 65 and I am doing 66 can the officer's trained (complete BS) estimate tell the difference because 66 is indeed breaking the law.

Oh, btw my crooked neighbor cop estimated my speed in the neighborhood at 44 in a 20. Shame that my car has a GPS/track datalogger that records on a SD card that showed the highest speed at 22. Went straight to his Chief with the datalogger and second by second printout of time/lat-lon/speed, etc (It's a long story that I have previously written about). Haven't been bothered by him since, but he's still on the force. Cops are people, and people lie.

Quit pissing the neighbors off and they'll leave you alone. :biggrin:

 

[Hasdrubal]

Almost forgot... You guys might not believe this, but last week my lieutenant got mad at two guys for spending all shift running radar while everyone else was going to calls.

 

[Tony Montoya]

Porsche has a built in datalogger, the Cronosport in the 911, that you can use to record lap times. It could help you fight a speeding ticket, or convict you.

 

[naaman]

yes, it's a game.... sneaky cops taking radar on on-ramps, etc and we think "that's not fair". But the truth of the matter is there is a speed limit and if we break it and get caught then we are breaking that law.

Back to the OP, I think it's BS that a "guestimated" speed can be used. If you are writing me a ticket, you are charging me with breaking the law and you better be damn sure that I did indeed break the law, not that you estimated it. I'm innocent until proven guilty and an estimated speed is not "proven guilty" to me. If the speed limit is 65 and I am doing 66 can the officer's trained (complete BS) estimate tell the difference because 66 is indeed breaking the law.

Oh, btw my crooked neighbor cop estimated my speed in the neighborhood at 44 in a 20. Shame that my car has a GPS/track datalogger that records on a SD card that showed the highest speed at 22. Went straight to his Chief with the datalogger and second by second printout of time/lat-lon/speed, etc (It's a long story that I have previously written about). Haven't been bothered by him since, but he's still on the force. Cops are people, and people lie.

Yes. People lie. You're a person too, so, by that rationale, your status as a person negates your credibility. Is that right?

The fact is, bad cops wind up causing the department headaches, bad publicity and costing them money either in court (in an indirect sort of way) or in suits. If an officer writes a bogus ticket, he then has to go to court to defend his actions, which is a waste of department funding and manpower. Dishonest cops are a burden to the department and in my experience, an individual dishonest cop won't last long.

As for the difference between 65 and 66 mph, yes, it can be determined by observation with a similar amount of accuracy to that of your speedometer. And a speeding ticket for 66 in a 65 would not stand up in court anyway. No judge would support that UNLESS it was unreasonable to be going 66 mph in the first place (construction/accident/slippery or icy roads etc). In dry, clear, conditions, 1 mph over would get thrown out before it even went to court.

The fact of the matter is that a police officer's testimony MUST be considered credible if he is going to be able to do his job. If a police officer is the only witness to an act of crime, he must be able to take necessary action up to and including lethal force based on what he observes. Otherwise, there would be no reason to have police, since they would not be able to act without a third party independent witness.

Almost forgot... You guys might not believe this, but last week my lieutenant got mad at two guys for spending all shift running radar while everyone else was going to calls.

I believe it!!!

 

[NSXLVR]

It might be about money from the bean counter's point of view, but for peace officers, its much more personal than that. I can tell you right now: I have only EVER written a ticket for a criminal violation (i.e. DUI, suspended license, etc). That doesn't mean I won't pull someone over WHO I OBSERVE DO SOMETHING WRONG (i.e. speeding) just to see what else they're up to.

There is this "saying" that we use in law enforcement when a violator "gets away." We say, "Meh... we'll get him next time." Because there WILL be a next time. And if there isn't, then he must have actually had a real good reason for speeding (or whatever). Criminal behavior and generally illegal acts are habitual. And many, many, MANY criminals have so little (if any) respect for the law that they will overtly behave in such a way as to attract attention from law enforcement.

Anyway, it's like Cairo said about leaving something for the next officer: if they're stand up citizens just having a bad day, they will probably not even get a ticket (though, they might), and even if they do, it'll probably be their only one in life. But I can't tell you how many people I stop for a busted tail light that wind up having a suspended license or wind up being DUI etc. I NEVER write for defective equipment. I just use it as an excuse to see whose driving the car.

There was one time where I pulled a guy over for a defective brake light. I asked for his license. He handed me a mangled state ID card. I ran his numbers and BAM!!! Wanted Felon!!! I arrested him and searched his car. Found $2000 in cash, a couple little baggies of meth, some marijuana (personal use), and a .380 pistol with 7 rounds of teflon coated ammo!!!

well you need to be cloned, and then come replace the officers in Ohio :tongue:

I just would like to know one thing...do you think this law is a positive or a negative?

 

[CL65 Captain]

Yes. People lie. You're a person too, so, by that rationale, your status as a person negates your credibility. Is that right?

You are absolutely correct. Which in my case is why I had data (via my Racelogic Vbox datalogger) and the Police Chief didn't have to take my word, he looked at the evidence. In addition, he had know about this particular officer/neighbor harassing me in the recent past.

As for the difference between 65 and 66 mph, yes, it can be determined by observation with a similar amount of accuracy to that of your speedometer.

That is complete utter BS! I will give you my NSX outright if you can estimate with in 1 mph 10/10 cars. I have NO PROBLEM believing you can tell that some one is speeding doing 70 in 55 when there is other traffic flow on the road. And you would be guessing - whether it's 68, 69,70, 71,72, 73. So you pick a number out of your ass and stick with it.

The fact of the matter is that a police officer's testimony MUST be considered credible if he is going to be able to do his job. If a police officer is the only witness to an act of crime, he must be able to take necessary action up to and including lethal force based on what he observes. Otherwise, there would be no reason to have police, since they would not be able to act without a third party independent witness.

Several states have recently outlawed video taping an officer while performing his duty. Why? Because the officer MUST be considered credible and there is no need for actual video confirming the facts. :tongue:

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[Dhalsim]

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136377

 

[steveny]

I just drive less and less every year. I avoid all small villages and their speed traps keep in mind that also means their businesses. Again with the power of the internet everyone could ban together and just not drive for a day, week, month whatever it would take for the people to have a voice.

I am not condoning speeding. I do believe excessive speeding will kill you or someone else. BUT a 70 in a 55 ticket on a 4 lane highway is just about the money not about safety. 30 mph zones that stretch way the hell out from a village is nothing more than a speed trap. The fact that a speeding ticket increases your insurance substantially is pure BS. I, knock on wood, have not gotten a ticket in YEARS! I get pulled over about 10 times a year for window tint, show the doctors prescription and answer a few questions then on my way again.