Stock vs. NSX-R wing vs. GT Wing vs. Hybrid? - On track

[stuntman]

For NSX owners who track their cars, there really is only 3 major categories in terms of wing selections:

1. Stock - which is pretty much useless for any positive benefit of grip

2. NSX-R - which many track day guys would say (including myself) makes a noticeable improvement in downforce/grip on track (and is wind-tunnel tested on the actual NSX-R to make a decent amount of downforce for a street car), has the OEM look/history of the iconic NSX-R and bridges the gap from stock to 'racecar' nicely in many people's eyes.

3. GT wing - Big, flashy, screams 'racecar' or 'ricer' (in the eyes of the ignorant) -but will greatly improve the rear grip/stability and most importantly: lap times.


Now The NSX-R's wing is probably better than the S2000 "CR"s wing, however its profile is not very close to a proper airfoil shape -which drives me nuts. I've always had the desire and am probably going to look into what it would take to create a "hybrid" NSX-R wing. One that retains the stock dimensions, but has the efficiency of a real wing.

Idea:

-A proper airfoil the width of the stock wing - which will have ~60* of the span/downforce as a GT wing (but way more than NSX-R).
-Aluminum plate mounted to OEM trunk location
-Adjustable wing angle
-*Adjustable uprights (which act like end-plates on the wing)
-From stock to NSX-R height OR
-From NSX-R height to GT height (for track use for improved efficiency by getting the wing into clean air).

NSX-R:

GT Wing:

Hybrid (stock height):

Hybrid (NSX-R height):

Hybrid (Track height):


I think this would be more like a functional GT3/E36 M3 GTR-style wing in terms of staying within the design characteristics and style of the NSX, while bridging the gap between Stock/NSX-R and a full-blown race wing. Something adjustable from a performance and aesthetic standpoint. For those who want more performance, or much closer to GT-style wing performance but while staying far closer to the stock streetable design.

This would be my ideal wing. Does anyone share the same desire/taste/interest?

 

[ryneen]

For NSX owners who track their cars, there really is only 3 major categories in terms of wing selections:

1. Stock - which is pretty much useless for any positive benefit of grip

2. NSX-R - which many track day guys would say (including myself) makes a noticeable improvement in downforce/grip on track (and is wind-tunnel tested on the actual NSX-R to make a decent amount of downforce for a street car), has the OEM look/history of the iconic NSX-R and bridges the gap from stock to 'racecar' nicely in many people's eyes.

3. GT wing - Big, flashy, screams 'racecar' or 'ricer' (in the eyes of the ignorant) -but will greatly improve the rear grip/stability and most importantly: lap times.


Now The NSX-R's wing is probably better than the S2000 "CR"s wing, however its profile is not very close to a proper airfoil shape -which drives me nuts. I've always had the desire and am probably going to look into what it would take to create a "hybrid" NSX-R wing. One that retains the stock dimensions, but has the efficiency of a real wing.

Idea:

-A proper airfoil the width of the stock wing - which will have ~60* of the span/downforce as a GT wing (but way more than NSX-R).
-Aluminum plate mounted to OEM trunk location
-Adjustable wing angle
-*Adjustable uprights (which act like end-plates on the wing)
-From stock to NSX-R height OR
-From NSX-R height to GT height (for track use for improved efficiency by getting the wing into clean air).

NSX-R:

GT Wing:

Hybrid (stock height):

Hybrid (NSX-R height):

Hybrid (Track height):


I think this would be more like a functional GT3/E36 M3 GTR-style wing in terms of staying within the design characteristics and style of the NSX, while bridging the gap between Stock/NSX-R and a full-blown race wing. Something adjustable from a performance and aesthetic standpoint. For those who want more performance, or much closer to GT-style wing performance but while staying far closer to the stock streetable design.

This would be my ideal wing. Does anyone share the same desire/taste/interest?

Yes, now we just need to find someone whom can fabricate this idea in an effective manner!

 

[CL65 Captain]

I have OFTEN thought about what you talking about. Including taking a cheap NSX-R copy and sending it to Kognition to hack apart. But then I think, it takes all of 10 minutes to take off the stock wing and install a GT wing for track days and then switch back for the other 80% of my driving (street). A NSX-R wing with real aero, if it looked good when "stowed", would be nice to see.

 

[06_typeS]

Are replica "R" spoilers proven to be just as effective as the legit Type R?

 

[stuntman]

I have OFTEN thought about what you talking about. Including taking a cheap NSX-R copy and sending it to Kognition to hack apart. But then I think, it takes all of 10 minutes to take off the stock wing and install a GT wing for track days and then switch back for the other 80% of my driving (street). A NSX-R wing with real aero, if it looked good when "stowed", would be nice to see.

I thought about retaining the NSX-R's curvaceous side plates/'uprights' and using an airfoil center section, but after more thought, a thin straight upright/endplate would make the center section of the wing wider and could make it easier to add more holes for various AOAs and an adjustable height.

6 Bolts isn't terrible to swap wings, which is why i'm asking (and still trying to figure out what to do myself)...

Are replica "R" spoilers proven to be just as effective as the legit Type R?

Some really cheap ones are flat rather than curved/bowed like the NSX-R, but for the most part - yes. But it's not a real airfoil as the trailing edge is blunt and probably acts more like a spoiler/deflector than an airfoil.

 

[jwmelvin]

Yes, now we just need to find someone whom can fabricate this idea in an effective manner!

My brother, Arron, has agreed to take this on and has the following credentials:

• Ph.D. from Princeton in race-car CFD
• 5 years as F1 aerodynamicist at the Honda/Brawn/Mercedes team (you may remember the "double diffuser" and various F-duct-related developments)
• Current head of aero for Pratt & Miller, which does all GM racing other than NASCAR (including upcoming Indycar aero and Corvette ALMS)

He has developed a private aero kit for a Formula B car, with great success. He was largely responsible for the NSXs in our family (mom owned a '94 and the '97 that is now mine) and drove with me at VIR during NSXPO, so knows the NSX pretty well (had tracked it in the past at PIR also). He has raced a spec racer Ford in the past. Arron also has other mechanical-design experience, and I also have a Ph.D. in design from MIT's mechanical-engineering department, so in combination with your NSX and tracking experience, we should be in reasonably good shape.

When Arron and I discussed the possibility of aero for the NSX, he was thinking: front underwing, main underbody, rear diffuser, and rear wing. But this project would not disturb that. He has contacts overseas for reasonably priced carbon-fiber manufacturing.

In short, this would not be a casual approach.

Arron lives in Michigan but I'm going to be with him in about a week, over the holiday. It would be really exciting to get this project going.

-Jason

 

[silver2002]

subscribed!

 

[Rope]

Would love to see the R style wing with more function as well as the underbody panels.

 

[liftnot]

My brother, Arron, has agreed to take this on and has the following credentials:

• Ph.D. from Princeton in race-car CFD
• 5 years as F1 aerodynamicist at the Honda/Brawn/Mercedes team (you may remember the "double diffuser" and various F-duct-related developments)
• Current head of aero for Pratt & Miller, which does all GM racing other than NASCAR (including upcoming Indycar aero and Corvette ALMS)

He has developed a private aero kit for a Formula B car, with great success. He was largely responsible for the NSXs in our family (mom owned a '94 and the '97 that is now mine) and drove with me at VIR during NSXPO, so knows the NSX pretty well (had tracked it in the past at PIR also). He has raced a spec racer Ford in the past. Arron also has other mechanical-design experience, and I also have a Ph.D. in design from MIT's mechanical-engineering department, so in combination with your NSX and tracking experience, we should be in reasonably good shape.

When Arron and I discussed the possibility of aero for the NSX, he was thinking: front underwing, main underbody, rear diffuser, and rear wing. But this project would not disturb that. He has contacts overseas for reasonably priced carbon-fiber manufacturing.

In short, this would not be a casual approach.

Arron lives in Michigan but I'm going to be with him in about a week, over the holiday. It would be really exciting to get this project going.

-Jason

Holy crap! 2 legit Go-Fast Phd in one family! put us ricers to shame

 

[jwmelvin]

Arron is super legit but I'm a lawyer now so the legitimacy is questionable.

 

[Greg-TT]

I'd be super excited if this idea comes to fruition.

 

[liftnot]

Arron is super legit but I'm a lawyer now so the legitimacy is questionable.

IFF your Phd is Made In Taiwan! but even that, I am sure you are more than capable to argue your way out. an attorney with a Phd in engineering??? that is a dangerous combo.

 

[jwmelvin]

As we start to develop this, I'd like to get input from you all. Is it important that the wing be the same width as stock? I understand that to be one of Billy's starting points, along with the idea that the wing is easily adjustable in some fashion. This latter functionality might be accomplished with some sort of quick-release system.

The existence of underbody aero is also important, in that the rear wing has different roles depending on what is happening under the car. I don't know how it affects the wing design but it may matter. I am assuming at this point that the design would want to initially expect no underbody aero.

-Jason

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

Very interesting project,
I've sketched out quite a few rear wing designs my self in the past i really like this topic.

Anyway back on topic.
I know a few of the ADAC GT NSX race cars from I recall 94-96 seasons ran a wing setup very similar to the one your proposing.

I'm also interested in seeing how effective those BYS jdm rear tilled wings are, since the early ADAC GT car ran a similar setup.

 

[ProOnThaSnow]

Sub'd!

 

[stuntman]

Very interesting project,
I've sketched out quite a few rear wing designs my self in the past i really like this topic.

Anyway back on topic.
I know a few of the ADAC GT NSX race cars from I recall 94-96 seasons ran a wing setup very similar to the one your proposing.

Thanks for posting this! This is exactly what I was looking for in terms of the "high-position".

For the height adjustability, look at the picture. I was thinking to cut the upright/end plate (serve as same function) in half and bolt them together. Then you could un-bolt them, slide the wing down and bolt it to holes closer to the decklid -thus reducing the height. From this design, the 'high' mounting point could only be ~twice the height of the low location. -So a wing with a 'low' position at the height of the NSX-R wing, could have a higher 'high' mounting position.

-I hope I didn't lose anyone.

For AOA adjustability: have a stationary rear bolt and various holes for the front in the end plate.

 

[stuntman]

Is there any interest in a nice foam-cored carbon front splitter for the NSX? -One which would stick out 2-3" from the front bumper and have the strength to not need any front struts for support. I know someone who makes some nice parts for S2000 track cars and he might be able to do something for the NSX.

 

[docjohn]

I would think you'd need both to be most effective.I will follow with interest.

 

[jones83]

I would be interested in a wing similar to the ADAC GT NSX as well. All carbon with adjustability and proper height would be ideal.

As for the front splitter, the Lemans NSX had the underbody panels done to perfection it seemed.

 

[scammy]

Is there any interest in a nice foam-cored carbon front splitter for the NSX? -One which would stick out 2-3" from the front bumper and have the strength to not need any front struts for support. I know someone who makes some nice parts for S2000 track cars and he might be able to do something for the NSX.

Yes, I am in the market I have been thinking about more aero and a bigger wing but wont get the wing unless I get a good splitter, I have a complete underbody now from Downforce and Procar, just need a front and rear to match

 

[stuntman]

I would be interested in a wing similar to the ADAC GT NSX as well. All carbon with adjustability and proper height would be ideal.

As for the front splitter, the Lemans NSX had the underbody panels done to perfection it seemed.

The front diffusers do improve front downforce but it appears the LeMans NSX's front diffuser design is fairly simple and not optimized compared to modern diffusers. Would still be a great addition to the car and might be a great thing to do because you can reduce the length of the splitter (to improve streetability) while retaining the same amount of downforce.

 

[pjr300]

My brother, Arron, has agreed to take this on and has the following credentials:

• Ph.D. from Princeton in race-car CFD
• 5 years as F1 aerodynamicist at the Honda/Brawn/Mercedes team (you may remember the "double diffuser" and various F-duct-related developments)
• Current head of aero for Pratt & Miller, which does all GM racing other than NASCAR (including upcoming Indycar aero and Corvette ALMS)

He has developed a private aero kit for a Formula B car, with great success. He was largely responsible for the NSXs in our family (mom owned a '94 and the '97 that is now mine) and drove with me at VIR during NSXPO, so knows the NSX pretty well (had tracked it in the past at PIR also). He has raced a spec racer Ford in the past. Arron also has other mechanical-design experience, and I also have a Ph.D. in design from MIT's mechanical-engineering department, so in combination with your NSX and tracking experience, we should be in reasonably good shape.

When Arron and I discussed the possibility of aero for the NSX, he was thinking: front underwing, main underbody, rear diffuser, and rear wing. But this project would not disturb that. He has contacts overseas for reasonably priced carbon-fiber manufacturing.

In short, this would not be a casual approach.

Arron lives in Michigan but I'm going to be with him in about a week, over the holiday. It would be really exciting to get this project going.

-Jason

I am in the Detroit/Ann Arbor area and I'm willing to support with any legwork or testing as needed. Just let me know. Thanks for starting this initiative!

 

[jwmelvin]

I am in the Detroit/Ann Arbor area and I'm willing to support with any legwork or testing as needed. Just let me know. Thanks for starting this initiative!

Thanks. I will see Arron tomorrow and will discuss this project. He lives in Ann Arbor so it will probably be very helpful to have a car closer to him than mine.

 

[ProOnThaSnow]

Is there any interest in a nice foam-cored carbon front splitter for the NSX? -One which would stick out 2-3" from the front bumper and have the strength to not need any front struts for support. I know someone who makes some nice parts for S2000 track cars and he might be able to do something for the NSX.

You are describing the things dreams are made of. Keep 'em coming!

 

[jwmelvin]

A while back, I talked to Arron about front underwing. He guessed it it would have a production cost of $3-4k to do right. Does this put it out of what you guys would consider? Since the tooling cost is about $7k, it would mean a price if $5k or so, as a rough estimate. That struck me as a lot but I'm still moving forward, cautiously. For someone coming from F1, that is pennies on the dollar for proper aero.