Thoughts on "HYBRID" NSX

[TCroly]

Putting aside what it looks like, what it will cost and how much HP it will have, what do others think about the "HYBRID" aspect of the NSX concept?

Personally I think it might be a huge mistake.

First, I do not think the Hybrid bits will be intended for improved fuel economy and instead will exist to primarily drive the SH-AWD. While this may be revolutionary in application and may well enhance cornering abilities and launch out of corners in track driving, I am not sure it is something that I truly desire.

Second, I am concerned about both additional weight and battery longevity in the application I have for my NSX as a Sunday driver that sometimes spends weeks at a time not being driven.

As for weight, hybrid batteries weigh from 100 to 1000 pounds depending how much power you are trying to get from them. Something like my Honda CRZ has about 100 pound of batteries able to supply a maximum of 13 HP for a very short amount of time at full power. On a drive up a steep hill, the batteries lose their charge and stop supplying power within 3 miles of sustained use even when asked for limited (not full) power. Something capable of providing any significant sustained acceleration power, like 100 HP, will have 250-500 pound of batteries and this much weight is inconsistent with the design phlosophy of the NSX.

As for longevity, batteries require regular controlled cycling to maintain their 7-10 year lifecycle. Many exotic cars spend lots of their lives sitting in the garage and not driving, this will not be good for the hybrid batteries unless they include some kind of plug in battery conditioner. And I certainly would not look forward to the expense of replacing the hybrid batteries every 7- 10 years.

I like the idea of regenerative braking. as it is very well implemented in my CRZ and I would expect that the NSX application would be even better and may really improve brake heat displacement. And I definitely can see where coupled with precise computer control, the ability to use both acceleration and braking effects on each wheel could revolutionize AWD implementation. But in the big picture I am not sure that I support Honda's pursuit of hybrid technology to make the new NSX unique.

 

[NSX167]

it's not a mistake. It's a correct decision making. Anyway, there are too many Gen II threads.

 

[s2kNSX]

Ohhhhhh ohhh Oscar gonna come and get u for starting another thread lol

 

[Dynamic-uzed-auto]

Againnnnnnnn,lol

 

[Colin]

Something like my Honda CRZ has about 100 pound of batteries able to supply a maximum of 13 HP for a very short amount of time at full power..

On this point alone. The current Civic Hybrid uses a 48 lb battery pack for a 27 hp motor. Who knows what we'll see in 2 1/5 years?

 

[wilsonp]

The CRZ uses a Nimh pack - the NSX will use Li-on for less self discharge and higher energy density.

The Tesla roadster uses a 990lb pack to provide 245 miles of range, it's Li-on and needs no maintenance/cycling. The NSX won't need as much power and the Tesla isn't as energy dense as a lithium polymer battery (custom designed for the space like Apple does) would be, though a Tesla uses the small cells to help make cooling easier.

 

[2slow2speed]

The CRZ uses a Nimh pack - the NSX will use Li-on for less self discharge and higher energy density.

The Tesla roadster uses a 990lb pack to provide 245 miles of range, it's Li-on and needs no maintenance/cycling. The NSX won't need as much power and the Tesla isn't as energy dense as a lithium polymer battery (custom designed for the space like Apple does) would be, though a Tesla uses the small cells to help make cooling easier.

Hmm... For a street car it might be ok, for a car that will see spirited driving or heaven forbid actual track use batteries can still be a serious issue, there is a very good reson why the Porsche GT3R Hybrid racecar does not use a battery instead it makes use of a mechanical flywheel to store energy.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/15/porsche-911-gt3-r-hybrid-2-0-first-drive-review/

Porsche is already working on their 3rd generation GT3R Hybrid racecar, AFAIK they are sticking with a flywheel based KERS system.

 

[TCroly]

On this point alone. The current Civic Hybrid uses a 48 lb battery pack for a 27 hp motor. Who knows what we'll see in 2 1/5 years?

I agree that if we see major battery technology advances in the next couple years it is a whole new ball game. But I suppose my biggest disappointment in my CRZ is that Honda advanced their state of the art very little in it's hybrid application over what they had with the Insight in 1999.

The CRZ uses a Nimh pack - the NSX will use Li-on for less self discharge and higher energy density.

The Tesla roadster uses a 990lb pack to provide 245 miles of range, it's Li-on and needs no maintenance/cycling. The NSX won't need as much power and the Tesla isn't as energy dense as a lithium polymer battery (custom designed for the space like Apple does) would be, though a Tesla uses the small cells to help make cooling easier.

The Tesla with 245 HP and 990 pounds of batteries is the current state of the art Lithium Ion batteries. Agreed that the hybrid NSX will need less than half this amount of power and range, so perhaps the batteries will "only"add 300-500 pounds to the NSX to add 100 HP. But no matter how you slice it additional electric power is very heavy to add. Unless we are talking about very short duration power like the F1 KERS systems

 

[7even 1ne 4our]

1990: The NSX will be a V6? Man, the car is going to be a flop.
2012: The NSX will be a hybrid? Man, the car is going to be a flop.

I think you know where I'm going with this...

 

[TCroly]

1990: The NSX will be a V6? Man, the car is going to be a flop.
2012: The NSX will be a hybrid? Man, the car is going to be a flop.

I think you know where I'm going with this...

Boy that statement couldn't be further from the mark. I remember very well as I closely followed the development of the NSX and the V6 was the most appealing feature of the car at the time. V-tech and 90 HP/liter were some of the most exciting aspects of it. And when it was released very few of the original buyers criticized the choice of a V6. it was only a few years later when the Viper hit the market and the Ferraris became better that at anyone started the call for a V8 powered NSX.

What criticism there was before the original release was that "no one" would pay $60,000+ for a Japanese car.

 

[Colin]

Agreed that the hybrid NSX will need less than half this amount of power and range, so perhaps the batteries will "only"add 300-500 pounds to the NSX to add 100 HP. ...Unless we are talking about very short duration power like the F1 KERS systems

Personally, I think it's going to be less than that. I think we could be underestimating the benefit of directly powering one wheel from energy harvested from the other wheel. Since you're not converting kinetic energy to chemical and then back to electrical, we could see a jump in efficiency.

I know from speaking to Hondafolk, that the super capacitors in the DNX never really panned out, but what if they're ready now? Maybe they could pair capacitors with LiOn for some form of 'hybrid' battery pack (pun intended). I think we'll see some hints of what they've got up their sleeves when the RL and two motor Accord hybrids come out. I am hopeful that the two motor system is more efficient at regenerating power. Could you imagine if they could get the charge/discharge ratio closer to 1:1?

 

[liftcontrol]

1990: The NSX will be a V6? Man, the car is going to be a flop.
2012: The NSX will be a hybrid? Man, the car is going to be a flop.

I think you know where I'm going with this...

Agreed, with the 2012 part......It is a sick looking car [good], but with a sickly engine [bad].

 

[gleibig]

It just better not be an overweight pig. Lightweight = fun.

 

[drmanny3]

Since I am on my second Prius as well as our first Nissan Leaf (all electric) I can speak a bit from knowledge. Hybrid goes like a bat out of hell. You get 100% of torque at zero rpm. Think about it. The original NSX was not the highest horse power vehicle but because of its balance it could do things in the turns that other high hp cars could not. I remember watching a NSX take a hot Vipper through a turn. The NSX braked later than the Vipper and therefore got into the turn sooner and powered out of it faster. True the Vipper caught up, but can you imagine how the guy felt. That means you are out driving the competition. So imagine today. You have decent hp plus you have rails that are attached to the track. While everyone else is trying to not die in the turns you are powering through them. It is finess all over again. Those of you who need hp cause you can't drive should save your milk money for a used corvette or better yet a used Vipper. Then you can impress the rest of us with your highly skilled 0 to 60 straight line speeds. But those of you who are really skilled and also possess some green stuff perhaps having a sophisticated car like the new NSX will be your goal.

 

[lightguy]

The new NSX has to be technically interesting and an improvement on what is out there already. And "affordable".
Hybrid with seperate motors for the front driven wheels is a great way to go.
They can do traction vectoring for optimal cornering pull.
I DO hope the HP figures are relevant in todays sports car world not shy as with the 91 +'s

I kind of wished they did carbon fibre but thats another thread.

 

[GT-N]

if Formula 1 is going hybrid, then why not the NSX 2.0?

For 2012 F1 cars will use Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS), to me this is an awesome idea.

 

[Colin]

Hybrid goes like a bat out of hell. You get 100% of torque at zero rpm. Think about it. The original NSX was not the highest horse power vehicle but because of its balance it could do things in the turns that other high hp cars could not.

I think that too many have been stuck behind "that" Prius driver doing 55 in the fast lane that they haven't invested the time to understand the potential that electric motor offer. I know that TCroly understands, and his concerns are warranted. And no matter what Honda does, there will always be 'what if's' but I think Honda is on the right track here. How else are they going to learn more about this new technology and move it forward?

 

[BATMANs]

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[kookoo4nsx]

So what is this Vipper you speak of?

Since I am on my second Prius as well as our first Nissan Leaf (all electric) I can speak a bit from knowledge. Hybrid goes like a bat out of hell. You get 100% of torque at zero rpm. Think about it. The original NSX was not the highest horse power vehicle but because of its balance it could do things in the turns that other high hp cars could not. I remember watching a NSX take a hot Vipper through a turn. The NSX braked later than the Vipper and therefore got into the turn sooner and powered out of it faster. True the Vipper caught up, but can you imagine how the guy felt. That means you are out driving the competition. So imagine today. You have decent hp plus you have rails that are attached to the track. While everyone else is trying to not die in the turns you are powering through them. It is finess all over again. Those of you who need hp cause you can't drive should save your milk money for a used corvette or better yet a used Vipper. Then you can impress the rest of us with your highly skilled 0 to 60 straight line speeds. But those of you who are really skilled and also possess some green stuff perhaps having a sophisticated car like the new NSX will be your goal.

 

[drmanny3]

I was trying to protect the innocent Viper.....and/or Viper driver. Anyway lets not forget that Porsche is currently producing a car (2012) that costs upwards of $120k that has 400 hp. And how many here would not like to have one of the 2012 911s? I think Honda is clever but when I read that people expect a F 458 but at half the price I know that they are drinking some bad water, or smoking some strange weed. I have a feeling that what Honda will produce is going to be a home run. The only problem will be coming up with a $120,000 to buy one. I am retired so it is a bit more difficult. I will ask the wife to set aside some of the grocery money each week. That should place me in a position for a $1000 deposit in about 3 years. Perfect, just in time for the car's release.
Manny

 

[TCroly]

I created this thread to discus the possibilities for the hybrid part of the new NSX. We know that it has a primary function to facilitate the SH-AWD. but the question yet to be answered is, how much it will supplement acceleration?

Here are some possibilities:

It could have an F1 KERS implementation where it would provide a short blast of power on demand. The F1 KERS supply 80 additional HP for 6 seconds and typically weighs 77 pounds. Of course in F1 cost is no object.

It could be as simple as one 23HP IMA motor on each front wheel like the IMA from the 2012 civic hybrid. In this case each motor would weigh 42 pounds with a 97 pound LiOn battery able to supply each motor at full power for a maximum of 79 seconds. Such a system could be expected add about 180 pounds for a total of 46 additional HP.

I expect a 100 HP supplemental system would add at least 350 pounds, unless we are talking about a very short duration application such as KERS. I cannot imagine anything more powerful than 100HP in this type of application, but who knows?

Car and Driver reports Honda as saying the front wheel mounted electric motors would be capable of powering the NSX without the ICE running. This would require at least 70-100 HP with a fairly substantial battery capacity.

Other thoughts?

 

[Colin]

I created this thread to discus the possibilities for the hybrid part of the new NSX. We know that it has a primary function to facilitate the SH-AWD. but the question yet to be answered is, how much it will supplement acceleration?

Here are some possibilities:

It could have an F1 KERS implementation where it would provide a short blast of power on demand. The F1 KERS supply 80 additional HP for 6 seconds and typically weighs 77 pounds. Of course in F1 cost is no object.

It could be as simple as one 23HP IMA motor on each front wheel like the IMA from the 2012 civic hybrid. In this case each motor would weigh 42 pounds with a 97 pound LiOn battery able to supply each motor at full power for a maximum of 79 seconds. Such a system could be expected add about 180 pounds for a total of 46 additional HP.

I expect a 100 HP supplemental system would add at least 350 pounds, unless we are talking about a very short duration application such as KERS. I cannot imagine anything more powerful than 100HP in this type of application, but who knows?

Car and Driver reports Honda as saying the front wheel mounted electric motors would be capable of powering the NSX without the ICE running. This would require at least 70-100 HP with a fairly substantial battery capacity.

Other thoughts?

Not to be too 'picky' but your weight figures don't match what I see on Honda's site. (http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-hybrid/specifications.aspx). They're saying the battery weight is 48 lbs. That's less by half and changes the dynamic of your discussion.

When I go back to the Tokyo "Earth Dreams" intro, they said the new powertrain (assumes RL) had 20Kw x2 plus 30 Kw in the DCT. If the new NSX used the exact same motors, it'd be 27 HP x2 plus 40 HP. Pretty close to your 100 hp estimate, close enough for now anyway.

So back to the battery weight. At ~ 2lbs of battery weight per HP, we could be looking at ~200lbs for similarly limited duration as the Civic Hybrid. Please double check my figures, cause if I could do math, I wouldn't be selling cars... :tongue:

 

[NSX167]

Not to be too 'picky' but your weight figures don't match what I see on Honda's site. (http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-hybrid/specifications.aspx). They're saying the battery weight is 48 lbs. That's less by half and changes the dynamic of your discussion.

When I go back to the Tokyo "Earth Dreams" intro, they said the new powertrain (assumes RL) had 20Kw x2 plus 30 Kw in the DCT. If the new NSX used the exact same motors, it'd be 27 HP x2 plus 40 HP. Pretty close to your 100 hp estimate, close enough for now anyway.

So back to the battery weight. At ~ 2lbs of battery weight per HP, we could be looking at ~200lbs for similarly limited duration as the Civic Hybrid. Please double check my figures, cause if I could do math, I wouldn't be selling cars... :tongue:

I saw a caveman who lives on Gilligan's Island prefer stone, woodstick, and old fossil.

 

[TCroly]

Not to be too 'picky' but your weight figures don't match what I see on Honda's site. (http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-hybrid/specifications.aspx). They're saying the battery weight is 48 lbs. That's less by half and changes the dynamic of your discussion.

When I go back to the Tokyo "Earth Dreams" intro, they said the new powertrain (assumes RL) had 20Kw x2 plus 30 Kw in the DCT. If the new NSX used the exact same motors, it'd be 27 HP x2 plus 40 HP. Pretty close to your 100 hp estimate, close enough for now anyway.

So back to the battery weight. At ~ 2lbs of battery weight per HP, we could be looking at ~200lbs for similarly limited duration as the Civic Hybrid. Please double check my figures, cause if I could do math, I wouldn't be selling cars... :tongue:

The weights I am quoting are per motor (42.5 pounds each) with a battery weight (97 pounds) to support 2 motors.

That is in the civic hybrid there is a 42.5 pound motor and a 48.5 pound battery. In the NSX it will take two of these or a total of 182 pounds for 46 total HP. Assuming you want twice this power, double the weight.

 

[Colin]

The weights I am quoting are per motor (42.5 pounds each) with a battery weight (97 pounds) to support 2 motors.

That is in the civic hybrid there is a 42.5 pound motor and a 48.5 pound battery. In the NSX it will take two of these or a total of 182 pounds for 46 total HP. Assuming you want twice this power, double the weight.

I think that depends. If they're quoting just the battery or the battery and IPU in their figure. If so, then battery weight wouldn't double since two IPUs aren't needed. Still, my thoughts of "two pounds of battery per HP" seems fundamentally sound, if not a little high.

I don't think that you can count the weight of the motors as 'heavily' (no pun) as you are. We know they were going to do some kind of AWD with torque vectoring. The purely mechanical SH-AWD system has/had it's own weight penalty AND presented additional drivetrain losses as well. So, while it's a purely academic exercise at this time, we're really looking at the difference in weight (excluding batteries) between Mechanical AWD and Electrical AWD. I suspect it's a wash once you add in the driveshaft and three differentials. This of course brings us to the next question of whether it should be AWD at all, but that's a discussion for another thread.