To those who have owned vipers

[Z18]

My opinions of the Viper as follows (much of it has already been said, and is pretty common knowledge):

I don't own a Viper (a friend does), but I've driven three (including one that was pretty modified in the HP department), and I've also driven one on the track (Buttonwillow, to be exact).

General opinion: Amazing car, and until the most recent Z06, probably the best bang for your buck if raw speed and power is what you're looking for.

Positives: Very agressive and exotic looking, very fast, tons of torque, handles better than one would think, and doesn't cost a whole lot of money relative to other cars of similar performance. Also, pretty easy to modify in the HP area, not that you really 'need' a lot more, but hey, some people want all they can get.

Negatives: Feels big -- the huge hood sticking out in front of you, to me, is bothersome and makes it hard to 'feel' where the car is going to turn in. Build quality just isn't there and definitely feels like a Dodge. Lots of torque, and tons of engine breaking. Also, unless a very recent model, no ABS.

Road use: A VERY fun road car, especially if, let's say, you do occasionally race people (not that I'd by any means condone that, of course

. It doesn't matter what gear you're in, you're ready to rock. No need to gear down, or make sure you're in your powerband, because, well, you're there. Also handles well, and is decently comfortable inside.

Track use: Very fast car IF you are an excellent driver. And you had better know how to heel-toe. The massive torque makes it interesting when powering out of a curve, and the massive engine breaking makes it quite a challenge breaking before a corner -- as I said, heel-toe is essential. Not a beginning track car by any means, but insanely fast if you are very skilled.

Summary: A car I want, but not high on my list because I like to go to the track and I don't really want the hassle that much... and I'm just not a fan of American sports cars. If I did buy one, I'd probably use it more on the road when I was in a very aggressive mood (although I'd get the ACR if I did buy one, go figure). But, again, quite the bang for your buck -- I'd drive one and the new Z06 and then compare if you are looking for a lot of performance in the $45-75k range.

-Z18

 

[kverges]

I unfortunately have never had nor driven an NSX, so I only have one side of the equation. But I have owned '93, '96, '98 and '01 Vipers, race SCCA (not a Viper, can't afford that), track drive my Vipers and have a bent toward faster being better.

If you are looking in the '94-'96 range, remember that the car changed dramatically in 1996 with the introduction of the GTS. While some die-hards daily drive the early cars, I never did and don't (I still have the '93). The '93 is a much more crude, raw and visceral experience. Even so, I have yet to have an NSX keep up with me on track.

I now have a '01 GTS that I daily drive, rain or shine. It has the new ABS, which comes with the little-recognized larger rear calipers for better brake bias. This car is amazingly competent and on street tires will outrun my '93 on race tires.

Looks are subjective. The NSX is undeniably beautiful, but in a refined and subdued way. Clown shoe or no, the Viper is probably the finest automotive design in an affordable exotic in 30+ years. It may be too outrageous for some, but to call it ugly in my mind is mostly sour grapes or envy of those who have undying loyalty to another marque.

On the reliability front, I think they are amazing. My '93 is now 8 years old with thousands of brutal track miles and no failures to ANYTHING. I probably jinxed myself with that statement, but it has been a great car.

We shall see how my '01 does, but I expect more of the same.

Bottom line: totally different cars. If you like outrageous looks and performance that you have to drive with attention and care, the Viper is it. If you want near-Ferrari looks and performance with Accord-like quiet and fit/finish, the NSX is for you. But don't plan to come to the track and tug on superman's cape ;-)

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Keith Verges
Dallas, TX

 

[Z18]

kverges: I agree with much of what you said, but the posturing about track performance was a little much.

My experience after having driven on the track probably 30+ times in various cars (including the NSX and the Viper) is that how a person does on the track is about 80% driver and 20% car.

I've passed numerious Vipers on the track in my NSX and I've been passed many times by Vipers.

Also, the 80% part that is driver has different components in it as well, including not only skill but also simply how hard the driver is willing to push himself and his car. I know when I'm out there I drive at 7/10ths or 8/10ths of my limit because I REALLY don't want to spin out and mess up one of my cars (I take fairly expensive cars to the track that I drive home afterwards, as opposed to owning a dedicated track car that's towed to the track).

On the other hand, I will say that most likely were a skilled driver, used to both cars, to take an NSX (especially a stock one) and a Viper GTS to the track, that he'd get better lap times on the Viper.

But also, in fairness, a beginner or moderately experienced driver would probably do better in an NSX because it's SO much easier to drive fast (and I don't mean just in a straight line).

-Z18

 

[nsxtasy]

I believe Road and Track not too long ago did a buying guide article on the Viper similar to this one they did in June on the NSX. If you can find it (on the 'net or in print) it would probably be a big help. There are probably the usual bulletin boards, e-mail lists, and FAQ's available for the Viper as well.

 

[kverges]

Z18,

Not posturing, just facts. Out of the box, with equal (and competent) drivers, the Viper is faster (I think we agree on that, actually ;-)). In other categories, the NSX may rule, but for on-track whoopass, I'll take the Viper.

If you find yourself in Texas, come out the the Motorsport Ranch sometime and I'll really be gracious and then you can humiliate me in your NSX ;-)

But I do love the NSX, wish I had the $ to have one in my garage with the snakes.



------------------
Keith Verges
Dallas, TX

 

[Flexer]

ilya,

I love to read your remarks because you are a pretty smart guy and have good things to say. But when you said the viper was a "track car", and can "come close to a 911 turbo". I was laughing my butt off when you said that. The car is weighted horribly, has a truck engine with a truck frame, and easily loses its rear end on a race track and is almost impossible to correct the car. Mario Andredee (dont know how to spell that) once said that the only race corse he would drive a viper on was a corse that went strait and never turned. Basically the car is a QT Mile car. IF if you want the QT MILE KING then get a Viper. It is one bad A car in a straight line. Power anywhere. But as for being a Track car. bahahhahahha



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Flexer

RX7 Man

 

[nsxbadboy]

I thought Supra's were the quarter mile kings.

Havent lost to a Viper yet;-).

Joe

------------------
97 NSX-T
93 Supra TT BPU+

[This message has been edited by nsxbadboy (edited 14 November 2001).]

 

[Carguy!]

Flexer,
I am not a Viper fan, but I will be the first to say that I have seen a few of them do very well at the track. Most of the ones I have seen have been modified for track use, but I can say the same thing about the NSX's that I see at the track also.

You need to give credit where credit is do, and the Viper is an extremely powerful car that does very well on road courses. With a few mods the car can be awesome on the track. You can spin just about any car, that doesn't mean it can't be driven fast and to its limits.

 

[smoore]

most supra's i see at the 1/4 mile track can't get hook-up to save their lives...

 

[ilya]

***Basically the car is a QT Mile car. IF if you want the QT MILE KING then get a Viper. It is one bad A car in a straight line. Power anywhere. But as for being a Track car. bahahhahahha****

AHEMMM.... which car in that article you mentioned had the fastest lap time? By a considerable margin no less. nuf said.

You are restating the opinions mirrored by the general public who are not well informed. They do not spend time at the track. They do not converse with serious racers who spend time at the track. They do not follow long discussions between individuals who spend most of their time and money on the track.
I do.

Spend some time on a site like corner-carvers. Find some discussions on the Viper by individuals who have raced in or against these cars. Your opinion will change very quickly.
And if mention something like your 1/4 mile comment there, it would be explained to you, in a much less eloquent manner than I, on exactly why you are mistaken.

Find me one article/test where the Viper does not post the fastest lap time around a track. This car can and will hold it's own against a 911T on a track in lap times. You can bet on it. I have yet to find an article where a GTS does not soundly spank all other competitors in lap times. Say what you will about the quality and lack of balance. It's still the fastest car around the track in almost any comparison against almost any car. In fact, it is one of the only cars that can compete and win, in stock trim, against other highly modified makes.

Seriously, do some research in the right places. You'll be surprised what you will discover. You'll see how completely ridiculous some of the things you hear from the general public sound.

 

[Flexer]

I will need to find that. Viper is a great car, but not ment for the track. And I am sure guys at the track are raving saying they got beat by one sure. But lets face it. They are probly driving a Type R. Lets take a RX7 with the same horse power. 500 horse and race the two on the track. The viper will get spanked! If you compare the viper to anything with the same horsepower it will lose. If you can tell me otherwise I will just laugh. Let me back up my statements though, OH AND ALSO I AM NOT attacking you so no need to get offensive and have highschool drama. We are just having a friendly conversation. With that said the Viper is two front heavy. It better have 275 up front stock because your hosed if you dont!! Seems like the viper is always pushing away from the corner or sliding the rear out of it when ever I watch them race. ( could be bad driver though). All I know is it takes a BAD ASS driver to control that car. And if the car was ever compared to one of equal HP. It would be killed. So lets just hope that Dodge makes sure that it always has 150-200 more hp than its compotition.....or it is going to get out performed by its heavy truck frame and lack of balancing. Guess thats why everywhere when other cars go up by 20 horse, the viper goes up by 50. Its the only way its going to stay ahead is by having WAY MORE horse's. Do you think my thoughts are way off or kinda close ilya??? Cant wait to read your side of the debate. lata

Oh yah, VIPERS ARE STILL SWEET!!!!!!

------------------
Flexer

RX7 Man

 

[nsxtasy]

If you compare the viper to anything with the same horsepower it will lose.

The only way you can do that (barring some specialty cars produced in extremely limited numbers) is to compare a stock Viper with a highly modified non-Viper car. That's not a fair comparison.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 15 November 2001).]

 

[ilya]

***The only way you can do that (barring some specialty cars produced in extremely limited numbers) is to compare a stock Viper with a highly modified non-Viper car. That's not a fair comparison.***

Dangit Ken. You answered it for me.

That's what I get for stepping away from the computer.
My thoughts are along the same lines. Stock vs. stock, there is almost nothing that can best a Viper in potential lap times.
Calling a Viper a 1/4 mile car is a gross injustice. It's not. Even the mag editors of mass market publications like C&D, Motortrend, etc. could tell you that.
They can whine and complain about the details through the entire article, but the bottom line is always the same. With an experienced driver who knows how to control it, the performance numbers are astronomical and lap times are always superior.
That's a proven fact. It's been almost ten years since the car has been released and it has been improved considerably since. As crude, and unrefined, and 'truck-like' as one may call it, the facts can not be ignored. It has spanked almost any other car in every performance category and around the track from the day it was introduced.
Just because it performs well in the 1/4 does not mean it is strictly a 1/4 car. It performs just as well in almost every other performance category. Where it does not fair well with many is in the subjective category and driving experience. That is understandable, but it does not change the fact it consistently outperforms the competition in most major tests.

On a side note: I personally prefer the Z06. It's slightly less extreme than a Viper, but offers many things that the Dodge does not. I think it's amazing that Chevy was able to achieve such a balance between extreme performance and refinement. It has been spanking every car in performance tests outside of a GTS. They were able to achieve that performance with minimal compromises compared to the Dodge. impressive

Yet, the fact remains that at the track, the Viper has remained King of the Hill. A 911T can beat it, but not by much. The 911T is an engineering marvel. The fact the 80K Viper can keep up with it says enough about the track abilities of the car. I would still like someone to find me a test where the GTS did not post the fastest lap time around the track. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

[nsxtasy]

I think it's amazing that Chevy was able to achieve such a balance between extreme performance and refinement. It has been spanking every car in performance tests outside of a GTS. They were able to achieve that performance with minimal compromises compared to the Dodge. impressive

Chevy also deserves credit for the value relationship (price vs performance). The Corvette in general has been a supercar bargain for a long time, and now with the Z06, it's even more so.

 

[ilya]

There has been talk on the vetteforum for some time regarding the C6. Comments have been made that one of their main focuses for the C6 is on making the car smaller and lighter.

 

[smoore]

vipers in my eyes may perform good but are lacking quality everywhere

 

[ilya]

agreed

 

[ALLAN]

having driven and been in several vipers, i find them to be crude and overrated.in my opinion these cars just look cheap,as though they were made of plastic. ive raced 2, one in my old 92 diablo, it was a rt/10, not sure what year, but it did not have the pipes out of the sides, raced from a roll, about 30 miles an hour to about 100, and the diablo could pull away by about 2 1/2 to 3 car lengths. the diablo was bone stock except for exhaust. this makes me question most magazines performance figures on the car because most magazines quote the diablo as running 112-114 through the quarter, while they repeatedly say 118-119 for the vipers. of course of this race, the guy in the viper wanted to go from a dead stop and i didnt, so i was consequently called a few choice names. never at a loss for words, i replied "that if i wanted a viper i would of bought 5 of them" to which i promptly recieved the finger. the other viper i recently raced is my friends 2001 gts and i raced this in my new sv. this is a car which he has made repeated 1/4 blasts in the 12.4 to 12.6 territory at about 115mph. his car has exhaust and some kind of air box gizmo. weve raced from every given speed, to about 170, and every time the diablo instantly pulls away, and continues to do so. its not far to compare the nsx to the viper in straightline performance, but in driving, style, and useability it wins hands down.

 

[Ryoma]

I don't own one, haven't ridden in one or driven in one, but I can offer some second-hand information from an owner. He recently moved in to my apartment complex and has an ACR. I have spoken with him twice now about the car and he gave me lots of insight into it. He does drive the car daily (I believe it is his only car) and has had it significantly modified by one of the tuners here in town (can't remember which though, Hennesy maybe). He indicated that the build quality is very poor and that only his extended warranty and the generosity of his Dodge dealership have kept him solvent. He said that the car is generally in the shop every two weeks or so and routinely receives $8000 repairs. These are his words so any exaggeration is his. His girlfriend loves NSXs so she was asking about mine, one of her first questions was "does the air conditioning really work?"


I get the impression that the Viper is a bit of a beast to live with and ill-suited to city daily driving unless one is significantly enamored with the car (which I could understand).

 

[Raron]

Funny this topic happens to be up. I have had my GTS for 5 months and had an NSX with RM Racing stuff, wheels, springs, etc. I enjoy the viper for the raw race car sound, steering, reflexes, etc. You feel like you are in a NASCAR.

However the reason I even saw this topic is becuase I just considered getting another NSX tonight. I have always knew I would own one again. Anyhow, here is my verdict. If you enjoy and need to feeling of quality materials, vibration free ride, and decent gas mileage... forget the Viper. However if you want a raw toy that you drive on weekends, nothing turns heads like a Viper and few cars make you feel as invincible. I have always enjoyed a measure of luxury and refinement in my cars. Therefore, I'm considering a NSX, M3, 928, 911, etc.

People call it cheap American crap. Having owned Porsches, BMW, Lexus, Infniti, and every other make, I can say that the build quality isn't that bad. No real rattles and no need to put in in the shop and I now have 12K. Anyone know of a good deal on a 97 yellow NSX?

 

[smoore]

i know a good deal on a 2000 yellow nsx....it has now been fixed.

 

[kverges]

This board is sort of like the Vette & Viper BBSs in that there is the irony of vigorous discussion on other cars. nad nothing seems to polarize better than the Viper ;-)

Flexer - sorry, but you are clueless. The Viper has 49% of the weight on the front, which is pretty good for a front-engine car. But bottom line, come on down to Texas and I'll race you for pink slips. Rent a 911TT and I'll pay for it if you can stomp me. But you should not spout off about what you are clearly ignorant.

As for TWS video of getting by a Viper; who was driving that Viper? Most Vipers (and I'll bet most NSXs) are driven for the fun, prestige, etc and the owner either does not want to go fast or can't. I can respect that, but bring your video cam to TWS and I'll bring my Viper and don't forget to mount your zoom lens so you'll have half a chance to get more than a few seconds of my license plate on tape ;-)

I never said NSXs were bad, to the contrary, they are awesome! But on track the NSX is like a fine fencing foil against a long broadsword. If your opponent is clumsy, you can outmanouver him for the kill. If your opponent is skillful, he will cleave you in two.

Seriously, anyone who thinks differently, come show me the error of my ways - I love to get a little learnin' now & then - I am not anywhere close to as fast as I'd like to be.

------------------
Keith Verges
Dallas, TX

 

[smoore]

the new name for the Dodge viper is the Dodge Diaper

 

[ALLAN]

I ADMIT THAT PEOPLE DO LIKE VIPERS, BUT I DONT THINK THEY CONSIDER THEM EXOTIC. MORE LIKE A PERFORMANCE CAR FOR THE PEOPLE. IN REGARDS TO TURNING HEADS, THEY DO, JUST NOT WHEN IM ON THE ROAD IN MY CAR. MY FRIEND WITH THE SILVER GTS PREFERS TO LEAVE HIS CAR AT HOME WHEN WE GO OUT, BECAUSE JUST AS YOU SAY, HE FEELS INVINCIBLE ALONE, BUT WITH ME, HE GETS HARDLY A GLANCE.

 

[smoore]

in addition he's not spend all his money on gas