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Group Buy Variable Manual Rack - Feel a little F1 tech in your hands

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I don't know why this turns into a fight. instead, we should make it happen.

it's unfair to ask for R&D contributions from customers and then dump the project.
 
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I don't know why this turns into a fight. instead, we should make it happen.

it's unfair to ask for R&D contributions from customers and then dump the project.

agree 100%. This is an unique, difficult, expensive project. P2F can't shoulder it all to produce a proto. The hardest part is done, really - MVO is willing to help and they are the best. Now we need donation to make it happen. The formula is simple, $2500/$25ea. = 100 people to complete phase 2. Until we reach that number, we want but can't move forward. We are following MVO's statement of work listed in thread #1 in phases. P2F did not make that list just to be clear.

We had received PM of someone willing to donate the $2500 and the thought is much appreciated but the principle is too risky for P2F. We need more people like him seeing it to average out the cost per. Cuz there will be more work needed after Phase 2 ie. design and manufacturing a new housing so its a complete bolt-on(works for newer car with EPS but only manual) and we don't know how much that is going to be so there is strength in numbers and if we take that $2500 without having enough interests to carry on further, we will be doomed. We need the numbers to work and each can donate more than $25 if they choose.

Yes we should move on to Phase 2 and that is the right thing to do esp. for the Phase 1 folks. We are waiting on Phase 1 folks to continue. We do need more people willing to sign up to get this to Phase 2 and beyond. That is our new year wish. The good thing is, this is not a rush. We are happy to take small step at a time but we can't be back and forth with MVO. The cost to make say 100 new racks is much higher for say 200+ racks using different manufacturing methods. MVO is on our side as they know we are not a well funded team so the higher the sign up, the lower the final price will be. Sorry for the sales pitch, we are not the marketing type.
 
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We have requested MVO to provide a quote for qty of 100, 200, 300 so we know the price range but have yet heard from them(maybe they are at PRI in Indy).
...
In the mean time, if MVO responds, we will post more info here.

Maybe I missed it with all the back-forth the past few posts, but why is this declared dead when your post partially quoted above clearly outlines the next step?

Before requesting additional funds, it seems prudent to clearly understand the next fundraising goal.
 
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Also, why does the Service Manual say the overall steering ratio is 18.2-20:1? To my naked eye, I can see a bit of change in thread pitch at the extremes. Do we really have a VR OEM rack?

Finally, if MVO can't do this for a reasonable price, I know a guy in Lithuania that can do this for you real cheap :smile:
 
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I warned you about the numbers, remember? I have done many group buys. I said those high numbers were fantasy. You are posting this into on a forum that is dying. I have 16000 posts here and I am barely on here anymore because I am always on the facebook page and so are many other NSX owners. There is an NSX owner's group page that is more active than the facebook "prime" page that is open to the public. It is closed. I posted a link a while back that everyone should at least look at this thread. You are reaching a handful of the thousands of NSX owners, that is a problem. I bet half the people that are regulars on this page haven't even seen this thread. I signed up for phase 1, and I didn't even know about phase 2! That is why you have 10 people. This is a marketing issue more than a lack of interest issue.
 
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Maybe I missed it with all the back-forth the past few posts, but why is this declared dead when your post partially quoted above clearly outlines the next step?
Before requesting additional funds, it seems prudent to clearly understand the next fundraising goal.

We failed to keep the post KISS as too much noise => confusing. Its only dead IFF we don't get enough to sign up for Phase 2 and beyond. Say we get 100 people for Phase 2, that is $25 ea. IF we get 50, that may be an indication of not enough interests to carry this further then makes little sense to collect the money for Phase 2. We hope we can at least have a proto made as its the only way to evaluate.

Thread 9 listed the goal for Phase 2 but that is ONLY for the rack and the pinion and its a rough est. @~$2000(not sure what qty we need to be at this price) NOT including the new housing which also needs to be designed. Which means, this is "somewhat" a moving target pending on the response we get from Prime. We need a high solid number(b 4 we collect any $) to go back to MVO. There will be a time when we are further along in the development stage to ask any questions you have with MVO, that is why they told us "don't ask" when we press for the price for the housing because at 60 people for Phase 1, we simply can not afford the final product for a complete bolt on solution.

So even if we had the same 60 people willing to fund the $2500 for phase 2, P2F sees this project is dead cuz we are not able to fund the rest w/o killing our next project. We don't want to be accused of taking people's money and don't deliver even its only 25 bucks.

We will post after the holidays about Phase 2 statement of work.

Also, why does the Service Manual say the overall steering ratio is 18.2-20:1? To my naked eye, I can see a bit of change in thread pitch at the extremes. Do we really have a VR OEM rack?
When MVO CMM the donated oem rack by Coz, the delta between 18 and 20 was "insignificant", "unmeasured-able" thus that rack is more of a 20:1 rack than a VR. They did say there is minor wear of the rack so maybe that's the reason?? The history of this rack is unknown. Looks fine through naked eyes.

Finally, if MVO can't do this for a reasonable price, I know a guy in Lithuania that can do this for you real cheap :smile:

Too late:biggrin:, Tomaske beat you.

Mindaugas T <[email protected]></[email protected]>

other option you can simply send us parts we do molds and send you molds as that be way cheaper. Or can place order so far other vendor selling stuff an they dont have to wait as always cary stuff. By the way we can start from small if that work we more.

Like gauge cluster rings sets. as lot of guys want them.


I warned you about the numbers, remember? .........

Would you be willing to lend us a hand to take charge of the FB posting?
We did post there recently linked to this thread.
We knew the number will be small(or anything we develop for that fact) but that won't deter us trying to develop upgrades for this NSX that work all the time JMO. Those who understand what we do will support us but those who don't, which is totally undestand-able as all of our parts add zero HP to the car. Even if we can't pull this off, we have no regret other than letting 60 people down and not able to complete the project w/ their $ contribution.
 
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Just trying to understand the business model here...assuming we go through phase 1/2/3 and this part is eventually produced, would people purchase through MVO or through P2F? If through P2F, I assume it will be sold for a profit. Is P2F investing anything to make this happen (other than time, of course)? I'm not criticizing the approach, but am genuinely curious.
 
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Excellent biz Q.
Purchased through P2F when its produced in X-qty. The mark up will be minimal for the folks who contributed $ to this project to cover our expense and effort. It is not our desire to have a huge mark up(knowing this is the only source for the VR rack) otherwise no one can afford it and what would be the point asking folks to contribute that even we can't afford? but by the same token, folks need to understand it is a high precision part and the vendor behind this is a top notch Tier-1 doing what they can with a 30yr old rack w/o any drawing. Thus the higher the number, the lower per donation is needed to lower the risk for all early supporters. We have been very transparent of the MVO invoice and we will continue to do so to be fair to those who donated have the right to know and its their project as well not just P2F.

You can have a rough idea of the ~$2k/ea. quote for ~qty of 100 JUST for the rack and pinion and that would be the cheapest way to go but opens to too many variables that is impossible to control. MVO knows at 100 people, we probably can not afford a complete new rack and they are right. and If a proto(or 2) is made, it will be made from a cheaper materiel for validation purpose only, not for long term use so P2F will not be the only car that has this VR rack like someone has suggested. This is not a scam but a tricky project to manage and please those who have $ involved but its worth the trouble JMO.

So far, besides time, $-wise, P2F had made up the difference of $1100 for phase 1 to balance the invoice to keep MVO happy and willing to move on. We can't keep repeating this pattern.

For the late adopters, the price will be higher. The math works better in one big number than 2 smaller numbers so we hope there won't be any late adopters for LHD. For the RHD folks, MVO wants a RHD oem manual rack to go thru Phase 1 to confirm it is indeed a mirror image because it was not the case on other cars in the past. This is part of the hassle of reverse engineering w/o drawings.

P2F runs a very tight operation while keeping the overhead to a minimal, in 2yrs of doing this, it has been fun and worked well. How can we stay in biz? this is not our only gig and we are hungry for better product 1st and let the money come 2nd. We are the middle man in this case but not with the typical middle man mark up. Prime is a very small family.
 
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I didn't even realize you could sign up for phase 2 yet.

Same here.
Were emails and PMs sent to phase 1 folks to notify them?
Was this posted to the two Facebook groups to catch more people?

I hope P2P realizes there is a limited market for this. Maybe 20 racks total. If expectations were much higher I think there are issues with math (small number of NSX's produced, small portion of them will ever know about this, small portion of them will be interested, small portion of them would drop this kind of cash on this mod). Do the math another way: If 100 people sign up for phase 1, expect half or two thirds to sign up for phase 2. That leaves 50-60 folks. When price of phase 3 hits, maybe 1/4th will actually say "go."

RE the ratios, I don't think our rack is anything close to twitchy even at high speed. I'd welcome shorter ratios coming on earlier than proposed (I think stuntman's point) so later effort does not have to ramp as much. Also, if VR ramps too progressively it could be funny to drive. Test driving a 570S (or 650s?) I almost dropped the wheels off the inside of a tight corner. Salesman says he's had people end up in the grass half way off the road.
 
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PM were sent to all Phase 1 folks with no reply. This is a very limited market. We were surprised 60+ people suported Phase 1. 20:1-14.46 proposed by MVO will require some learning to get use to but certainly not make the car 'twitchy' JMO. It will certainly change the behavior of the car forever. The oem ratio is quite slow but some people care and some don't so lets hope the oem rack won't wear out for a long time.

The only way to find out is to make a proto and shake it down but at this point, its tricky and expensive to do just for the pinion and the rack and retro fit into the existing oem housing as we don't have the original drawing. MVO is willing and we need Prime help to make it happen. But then, willing to pay for a high precision part is quite another.
 
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Add me to phase 2 Tim. Let's get this rolling again. A little cash for this from everyone and we can have a great product. What's $25-$50 anyways? I'm not made of money but this could potentially be huge for us down the road.

I honestly think you didn't hit the send button on phase 2 or a few were forgotten about, myself included haha.
 
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I have not received a pm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
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Add me to phase 2 Tim. Let's get this rolling again. A little cash for this from everyone and we can have a great product. What's $25-$50 anyways? I'm not made of money but this could potentially be huge for us down the road.

That was our thoughts as well.They don't/can't make cars like this any more.Thx for your vote of confidence.
 
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I too did not receive the pm until today and had not tracked the progress of this until having been PM'ed today about these updates. I'm in for phase 2, and would have been from the getgo. Please let me know what is needed from me.

-Dan
 
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I too did not receive the pm until today and had not tracked the progress of this until having been PM'ed today about these updates. I'm in for phase 2, and would have been from the getgo. Please let me know what is needed from me.

-Dan

Add me to phase 2.

We will wait for more sign up, then divide the $2500 evenly. Thx for helping all of us to make this come true.

I honestly think you didn't hit the send button on phase 2 or a few were forgotten about, myself included haha.

Thx gents for your vote of confidence. Perhaps Steve was right. We did a group send and obvious it did not work.:redface:
 
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Sure, add me in for phase 2.
 
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