Water Pump Replacement

[Jonathan]

At about 80K miles I had the 90K service done, including timing belt and (what I thought) water pump.

A couple of weeks ago I had my ignition switch replaced and during a quick peek in the engine compartment the mechanic (Don from Hilltop auto for those who know him) noted that the water pump was still original and asked if I needed the 90K service.

I told him I had the service and pump (again, so I thought) done a year and a half ago, "No way" he said, that's the original pump.

So I go back to my service records and sure enough, even though I spoke with the dealerhsip at length about doing it when they did the timing belt (timing belt was noted), they apparently forgot to do the water pump.

Long winded explanation, I know, but do I need to get this done ASAP? My car is a 1991 now with 99,500 miles on it.

 

[DanO]

The new water pumps have a different weep hole/tube arrangement so I guess it’s possible to determine if a car has a new or old style pump just by looking at the t-belt cover. I’m surprised they didn’t change the pump. Hmmmm. I’m not sure what to say about this one, has anybody heard of a water pump failure on the NSX? I guess if it were me with a 10-year old pump with 100k miles, then I’d be looking for an opportunity to change the pump. Unfortunately, this means also changing the t-belt again.

DanO

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Jonathan,

They definately should have changed it. But at this point you are where you are. So, I would see about inspecting the "weep hole" to see if there is any green residue at the water pump. I beleive you can, with a good light and mirror actually see inside to see if the pump has any weeping, even minor. You may ask Don to help you with this.

My 1991 with 30K miles did exibit some minor weeping, and it felt a little coarse when I spun it. I did change it.

One thing to consider is in my case, since my car has lower mileage, it "sits" more then yours. This could actually work in your favor.

If you find there is no green residue on the pump , you will then have to decide yourself what your comfort level is with extending the life of the present pump.

This is a damn shame, since as Dan mentions it is the same job over again. I also assume they did not do a coolant flush??

I would really be reluctant about using this dealership in the future. Sounds like Don is the way to go.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[Jonathan]

Yes, it is unfortunate

I had the work done at Acura of Portland (OR) and Morgan who works there always seemed really good to me.

Like I said, I even had a conversation about the pump before the work was done with the parts manager.

Don is the guy I will have working on my car in the future anyway as I am now in San Jose, but that still doesn't change what turned out to be a serious blunder by AOP in forgetting to replace the pump when the belt and service work was done.

Maybe I will take the car back to Don in the near future and have him give it a good look, although I doubt I will be comfortable with it either way unless I get it replaced -

Not even so much as the out of pocket expense, but the time away from work, and general running around is the part I hate most about taking the car in for work, especially work I thought was already done.

 

[DocL]

Originally posted by DanO:
... has anybody heard of a water pump failure on the NSX?...

DanO

The water pump on my '94 went bad at 23k after 6 years. One of the seals was bad and coolant started leaking out of side of the engine.

So to answer your question: Yes!

 

[DanO]

If you do get the H20 pump replaced, make sure that the shop puts on a NEW t-belt. There is no procedure in the shop manual to properly tension an old belt.

[edit]
OK, I'm not 100% sure about the above statment. I swear that I read a note in the Service Manual that stated to always tension a new belt, but I can’t find it.
[end edit]

DanO

[This message has been edited by DanO (edited 26 November 2002).]

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Hey DanO,

I was also wondering about yourt statement. I recal the service manual not really differentiating new vs. used, but it is in the section "replacing the timing belt". So it can be implied "new". In the case here, it would seem this belt actually will be quite "new" when the pump is done.

I guess the bottom line is about $125 or so for another new belt, if you decide to replace it again.

My $.02,
LarryB

 

[Jonathan]

The belt currently has just under 20K miles on it over about 18 months.

Worth changing? I know "it's up to me", but I don't know anything about the risks quite honestly.

 

[DanO]

My concern here is that the t-belt tensioner automatically applies the “proper” tension to the belt when installed. How does the tensioner know if the belt is new or old? I assume the Honda engineers designed the tensioner to apply the proper tension to a new belt. Belts stretch over time (almost all of the stretching is done in the first 5 minutes of use). Look at page 22-79 for the AC compressor belt tension deflection specs and note the difference in tension between new and “used”: New is 5.5 – 7.5 [mm/10 kg] and “old” is 10 – 12. “used belt” is defined as “a belt which has been used on a running engine for 5 minutes or more.”

If there is a significant difference in belt tension for new and used for the small compressor belt, then I expect there to be an equal or greater difference in the much longer t-belt. My bet is that the t-belt tensioning sequence is designed to tension a new belt and only a new belt and if one used a used belt it would result in too tight tension and possibly some really, really bad problems down the road (bad H20 pump bearings come to mind).

I ran into this same dilemma when screwing around with my DIY t-belt install. I had to remove the new t-belt (only used for 5 minutes to diagnose valve problems) to fix the heads. When I got around to installing the t-belt again I had to decide whether to buy a new one our use the one that had only 5 minutes of use. After discussing the situation with a few of the top NSX mechanics, the answer was unanimous—replace the belt with a new one every time.

.02
DanO

 

[Chuck]

I don't know if this is such a big dilemma. What we are talking about here is a water-pump that isn't leaking. Unlike a timing belt that isn't replaced and fails, this more then likely will not cause big $ damage. The pump starts to leak, you see fluid, you replace the pump. The water pump hasn't shown to be a big problem according to post on this forum and the email list so I wouldn't replace it until it starts to leak. I would also write all the proper people at Acura to notify them of your displeasure with the incompetence shown by your dealer in this matter and then keep an eye on the pump as you do other parts of the car.

 

[Jonathan]

This comment came out of the FAQ:

Also, the Water Pump is Timing Belt driven so a broken pump equals a broken belt

Which had me more concerned about replacing. Thanks for all of the suggestions and advice, I think I will try to get a good look (by someone more qualified than myself) and see if there is any evidence of a problem and keep an eye on it in the future.

Spending another $800 or so to replace this water pump just seems a bit unnecessary, but maybe it's not.

Thanks again.

 

[sjs]

I'll side with Chuck on this one for the most part. I can't think of any reason why the water pump should be replaced unless you are in there anyway. I've seen water pumps last hundreds of thousands of miles on Hondas, Fords, Datsuns, etc. and on average the NSX pump should be at least as reliable. (True the average engine RPM is higher but that doesn't mean the pump spins faster unless you compare the ratio of pump pulley to crank pulley .)

Also, the weep hole is there in part because a very small amount of weeping is normal, so just because you see a bit of green in there don't assume the pump is failing. As for a failed pump causing the belt to fail, that's far from a given. Most pump "failures" are the seals resulting in a leak. A failure that causes it to seize up is likely to be preceded by a period when it is noisy (and leaky). I can't think of a case when I've seen one on any car just lock up without warning. But even if it did you would then probably hear the belt squealing against it for awhile before the belt failed (after all, it's quite smooth), and of course the car would start running hot.

So, my advice is to leave it alone until you see a leak or hear something suspect.

BTW, I too recall the instructions about tensioning when I did my belt but what seems out of place is the lack of any instruction that you should not re-install a used belt following service. The manual is very good about identifying every nut, bolt and seal that should not be reused, but nothing on the belt, so I'm not sure what to believe. There are lots of reasons why the belt might need to come off for service so if a new belt is important they should certainly spell it out.


[This message has been edited by sjs (edited 26 November 2002).]

 

[D'Ecosse]

Originally posted by sjs:
... Most pump "failures" are the seals resulting in a leak. A failure that causes it to seize up is likely to be preceded by a period when it is noisy (and leaky). I can't think of a case when I've seen one on any car just lock up without warning. But even if it did you would then probably hear the belt squealing against it for awhile before the belt failed (after all, it's quite smooth), and of course the car would start running hot.

So, my advice is to leave it alone until you see a leak or hear something suspect....

I agree, Jonathan.

[This message has been edited by D'Ecosse (edited 26 November 2002).]

 

[Nsx Service Girl]

There was a product update on 91 NSX cooling systems in 1992, a select few were to have waterpump replacements. Possibly your car fell into this vin range and had replacement earlier in its existance? It would be fairly easy to check your vin number in the Acura link data base.
Just a thought

Susan

 

[Jonathan]

No Dice.

We think alike though, as soon as I heard my pump wasn't replaced I hit the bulletin to check the VIN, oh well

[This message has been edited by Jonathan (edited 27 November 2002).]

 

[ncdogdoc]

Well, I have had more water pumps fail than timing belts, so I would replace it. Most of my mechanics say the water pump seizes and the timing belt goes afterwards. Not true? I have always replaced water pumps on my domestic cars when they failed because a torn timing belt was not catastrophic on those engines. Otherwise, I would worry about the pump, especially on an aluminum engine where any overheating can be disasterous to the block. JMHO.

I think the dealer should be liable for the labor on this, as who would do a 90k and do the belt and not the pump unless they thought the pump had been done before (doubtful). Again, JMHO.

------------------
Gary Yates
1995 Red/Tan
1992 White/Black
2002 Red and White Cooper S

 

[Nsx Service Girl]

Just for grins, do you want me to check your warranty repair history? All I need is your vin number.

 

[matteni]

Are you sure they didn't just recycle the cover? I know several people did not want the expense of the "new" cover and reinstalled and / or modified the old cover to save $100.

The Barn Man did mine and gave me the choice to modify and return the new part the Eric or use the new one.

Did you send the VIN to the NSX Service Girl who offered to look it up?



------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids

 

[nsxxtreme]

Jonathan,

Did you happen to call Morgan and ask him if it was changed, if it wasn't changed ask why? It would really surprise me if he missed it. Get used to different dealerships trying to put doubt in your head about your previous mechanic. They are trying to win your business. It happens to me at every dealership I go to.


[This message has been edited by nsxxtreme (edited 01 December 2002).]

 

[Jonathan]

I am going to call AOP this week just to make sure. But I did look over my service sheets for that tip in to the shop and the water pump is conspicuously missing from all paper work

All other items were noted very clearly, I should have looked more closely at the paper work when I picked it up.

From what I hear, Don is a pretty solid guy out here, I doubt he was hunting for more business, he just thought I hadn't had my 90K service and timing belt since the pump was still original (as in, not the new pump).

Jonathan

 

[DanO]

Originally posted by matteni:
Are you sure they didn't just recycle the cover?

This was my initial thought, but the new style water pump weep tube is physically different from the old weep hole and is should be relatively easy to distinguish between the two styles with a visual inspection of the weep exit area. That is, if there is a tube sticking out of the cover, then it’s the new style pump, otherwise it’s not.

DanO

 

[Jonathan]

Ok, well, I spoke with AOP. Water pump was not replaced.

Their quote:

"This isn't something we would just do. Is it a good idea? Yes. However, without the customer specifiying it, we wouldn't just include the water pump replacement in the 90K service."

My verbal discussion with the service representative about replacing it didn't get noted and he is no longer there. So that's that I guess.

Morgan suggested I wait to see if it starts having problems before replacing it for the sake of doing so, noting it would start to leak or make noise before giving out.

Back to the service rep...

"You wouldn't want to pay all that labor again for nothing, right?"

I guess not. Bah.

 

[nsxxtreme]

I do notice here that it does only say to inspect it at 90k. It sucks that it didn't get done though.