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What gearbox oil do you use with a NSX-R differential?

Joined
15 May 2004
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4k with MTF was enough to make the NSX-R diff rattle. I've changed it with new MTF and the rattle went away (but for how long...). 600 miles later I've heard a noise again (high-pitch singing) during a turn taken quite aggressively where the diff had to work for sure. Not sure if it's the diff but guess it is.

I'm looking out for other tranny fluid which suits and hold up better than MTF. Motul recommended to me Motul Multi DCTF which is GL4 and similar in viscosity to MTF.

Experience from people who have the NSX-R diff installed are warmly welcome. Thanks.
 
4k with MTF was enough to make the NSX-R diff rattle. I've changed it with new MTF and the rattle went away (but for how long...). 600 miles later I've heard a noise again (high-pitch singing) during a turn taken quite aggressively where the diff had to work for sure. Not sure if it's the diff but guess it is.

I'm looking out for other tranny fluid which suits and hold up better than MTF. Motul recommended to me Motul Multi DCTF which is GL4 and similar in viscosity to MTF.

Experience from people who have the NSX-R diff installed are warmly welcome. Thanks.
I stuck with the MTF as everything else I tried didn't shift as nice so I went back to it, I did not have any noise issues just notchier shifting with other oils and I tried a few to test its cheap enough as it's only 3 litres
 
I've to add that MTF is $25-30 over here. That's why it gets expensive changing it every 4k.
 
This may or may not help you but on my build thread I listed a list of approved oils for the NSX using their LSD. The key factor is that it is a transaxle obviously so what's good for the LSD may not be good for the synchros. Shifting is a little stiff when cold on the Motul FF but totally acceptable because once it gets warm it shifts like stock. Takes 5 mins or less... Its not nearly as bad as when OSG recommended (incorrectly) the use of 250w gear oil in the tranny. That was a bit of a pain...

With that said, i'm using the Motul FF but they also recommended Motul 300. You've reminded me I need to change trans oil soon.

Motul 823511 Gear FF Competition 75W140
Motul 300 75w90
 
Guys,

I think it is important here to make you we state what year the trans is. In 1995 the differential went from a Torque Control Differential to a Torque Reactive Differential. The dif type makes a difference in regard to oil. For example I am sure all of us have heard of the "GM Syncromesh cocktail". This CANNOT be used in 1991-94 transmissions since it will have a wear increase with the Torque Control Differential. Works great for 1995 up tranmissions. Also note that the 4.23 gear can ONLY be installed on the 1991-94 dif. I have rebuilt over a dozen transmissions and upgraded to the 4.23/short gears, and also have done some 1995 up 4.23 installs which required the 1991-94 dif. For all these I typically use the Honda White Cap MTF, and have had no issues over the years.

My $.02

Regards,
LarryB
 
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Thanks Larry. For clarification: I've a 91 with a clutch type differential. MTF worked for 20k+ miles on my 4.23/shorties (WITHOUT the NSX-R diff upgrade) but now the stiffer NSX-R diff upgrade (installed last winter) yells after 4k miles for new oil.

RYU: Motul 300 75w90 is thicker than MTF. So the oil pressure of the internal oil pump will be certainly higher. How bad? If I ask the Civic guys they recommend it but they don't have an internal oil pump. Motul 300 75w90 is GL5. I've asked them about compatibility for yellow metals. They said: at your own risk. I said: no, thanks. As an alternative they've recommended my a thin oil used in DTC gearboxes, Motul Multi DCTF which is GL4. Not sure if it's additive package is capable enough for the stiffer NSX-R diff.
 
I've to add that MTF is $25-30 over here. That's why it gets expensive changing it every 4k.

I think the Honda S2000 forums recommend either the Honda white cap MTF, or the Amsoil MTF. They note the Honda seems to break down earlier than the Amsoil.

I think Honda oils are manufactured by this company:
http://www.idemitsu-usa.com/

Can you get Amsoil over there at a reasonable price? If you want to try it, and an Amsoil representative wants a lot of money to ship it to you, let me know and I can send you some.
 
Guys,

I think it is important here to make you we state what year the trans is. In 1995 the differential went from a Torque Control Differential to a Torque Reactive Differential. The dif type makes a difference in regard to oil. For example I am sure all of us have heard of the "GM Syncromesh cocktail". This CANNOT be used in 1991-94 transmissions since it will have a wear increase with the Torque Control Differential.

Larry,

I'm replacing my clutch now, and will also pull apart my '92 5-speed while it's out to change the input shaft bearings. It has ~128k miles on it, and about 40k of those miles were with the GM Syncromesh cocktail, and then another 20k of those miles were with Amsoil stuff not designed for clutch-pack diffs. The last 8k miles have been with Honda white cap MTF. I liked the GM mixture the best overall.

When I pull out the diff on my rebuild, can I easily take it apart to measure the clutch pack wear ? I've never opened a transmission before, so this will be a learning experience. It also might help quantify how bad these fluids can be in our transmissions, as I seem to be the poster child of what not to put in your '91-'94 transmissions.

FYI - I've measured the break-away torque in the past, and it was on the high side of the SM range. I think I tested it when I was using the Amsoil stuff... Memory is going....

Thanks.
 
just to add... On my 91, I had the trans rebuilt once and the OEM Diff was setup with the Type R specs (except Final Drive). I had it for more than 10k miles and did not hear anything strange using Honda MTF.
Thanks RYU, that are the experiences I wanted to hear of.

I think the Honda S2000 forums recommend either the Honda white cap MTF, or the Amsoil MTF. They note the Honda seems to break down earlier than the Amsoil.

I think Honda oils are manufactured by this company:
http://www.idemitsu-usa.com/

Can you get Amsoil over there at a reasonable price? If you want to try it, and an Amsoil representative wants a lot of money to ship it to you, let me know and I can send you some.
Thanks for the feedback, I guess the Honda MTF is a mineral based oil and breaks down earlier. It is also said to foam at high temps (like at 150+ mph). As I get my MTF from the US (the one with the white cap) what is the color (of the cap) is the other one and what is it for (just wondering)?
Amsoil is hard to get by in Europe. Thanks for the offer for sending me some. I'll give it a try with some locally available oils as a starter.

When I pull out the diff on my rebuild, can I easily take it apart to measure the clutch pack wear ? I've never opened a transmission before, so this will be a learning experience. It also might help quantify how bad these fluids can be in our transmissions, as I seem to be the poster child of what not to put in your '91-'94 transmissions.

FYI - I've measured the break-away torque in the past, and it was on the high side of the SM range. I think I tested it when I was using the Amsoil stuff... Memory is going....
As long as the break-away torque is within specs and stable over time you shouldn't be worried. When I had my diff apart I've checked every clutch plate of it. Unfortunately, there are no specs for them in the SM like the thickness of new or used ones. They just state the minimal torque (30 Nm). The diff clutch plates still showed their deep grooves on them. Like in any clutch: as the friction material wears off the plates get thinner and the clamping force lowers which finally lowers the torque capability of the clutch.
IMG_2425.JPG
 
Guys,

I think it is important here to make you we state what year the trans is. In 1995 the differential went from a Torque Control Differential to a Torque Reactive Differential. The dif type makes a difference in regard to oil. For example I am sure all of us have heard of the "GM Syncromesh cocktail". This CANNOT be used in 1991-94 transmissions since it will have a wear increase with the Torque Control Differential. Works great for 1995 up tranmissions. Also note that the 4.23 gear can ONLY be installed on the 1991-94 dif. I have rebuilt over a dozen transmissions and upgraded to the 4.23/short gears, and also have done some 1995 up 4.23 installs which required the 1991-94 dif. For all these I typically use the Honda White Cap MTF, and have had no issues over the years.

My $.02

Regards,
LarryB

I wish this was added as a disclaimer to every forum post recommending GM Synchromesh. I wonder if the wiki could be updated with this info under fluids section?
 
I wish this was added as a disclaimer to every forum post recommending GM Synchromesh. I wonder if the wiki could be updated with this info under fluids section?

I would like to hear from Larry specifically why he doesn't like it. IIRC, there has only been one '91-'94 clutch-type LSD that has been rebuilt that used GM Synchromesh. When you consider the number of NSX owners putting this MTF in their clutch-type LSDs over all these years, that's not a statistically high failure rate.

The problem with transaxles that share MTF with clutch-type LSDs is that it is hard to balance lubricants to make synchros AND clutch LSDs happy. Anti-wear additives, extreme pressure additives, and friction modifiers all need to be balanced. Not easy, and is probably one of the reasons why Honda abandoned clutch LSDs later:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/729344/EP_Additives_-_Lubricant_Rheol#Post729344

There aren't many automotive manufacturers that have transaxles with clutch-type LSDs (the NSX Torque Reactive Differential referred to above). But, data does exist out there for other Honda's... Civics, Integras, etc. with aftermarket clutch LSDs (Spoon, Mugen, Kaaz, OBX, Cusco, etc). Sometimes it's hard to read through Honda-Tech, but you'll find all kinds of information on various MTFs and homebrew cocktails people have used on the street and track over the past ten years.

If you read through it, you'll notice a trend that Honda MTF works great on the street, but does not hold up on the track once a certain temperature is reached. The oil/friction modifiers break down and you need to replace it early.

Racers predominantly use Kaaz MTF (which doesn't appear to be synchro-friendly in cold weather... i.e. not great as a daily-driver), Torco, Motul, or GM synchromesh with friction modifier as necessary.

As racers and other street users have used GM Synchromesh on their Honda clutch-type LSDs for many years under extreme conditions without complaints, then it should obviously work great for our '91-'94 NSX transmissions with similar design/materials used (synchros, yellow metals, oil passageways, tolerances, etc).

As I said before, I've used the 2qt GM Synchromesh blend with 1qt friction modified, and it worked great for 40k miles. Break-away torque was about 85ft-lbs and near the high-side of the SM spec. I've since put another 30k miles on this transmission using Amsoil and Honda white cap. About 130k total on my '92 tranny. The transmission is currently out to replace my SOS twin carbon clutch and I will preventatively replace my ISB's at this time. GM Synchromesh is going back in. :smile:

If the car was under warranty, I would use the Honda MTF and replace it more frequently. That's what I have to do with my '14 MDX because Honda ATF sucks too. However, at this point, I'll take my chances with the nice, smooth gear changes GM Synchromesh allows over Honda MTF. My diff and synchros work fine so far after 60k miles of it (like all the people over on Honda-Tech with clutch-type LSDs and our synchros)... but of course, YMMV.
 
4k with MTF was enough to make the NSX-R diff rattle. I've changed it with new MTF and the rattle went away (but for how long...). 600 miles later I've heard a noise again (high-pitch singing) during a turn taken quite aggressively where the diff had to work for sure. Not sure if it's the diff but guess it is.

I'm looking out for other tranny fluid which suits and hold up better than MTF. Motul recommended to me Motul Multi DCTF which is GL4 and similar in viscosity to MTF.

Experience from people who have the NSX-R diff installed are warmly welcome. Thanks.

Can you just try regular engine oil like originally specified by Honda for the manual transmission and change it more frequently?
 
As long as the break-away torque is within specs and stable over time you shouldn't be worried. When I had my diff apart I've checked every clutch plate of it. Unfortunately, there are no specs for them in the SM like the thickness of new or used ones. They just state the minimal torque (30 Nm). The diff clutch plates still showed their deep grooves on them. Like in any clutch: as the friction material wears off the plates get thinner and the clamping force lowers which finally lowers the torque capability of the clutch.

I've been reading through the SM in advance of taking my transmission apart, and I found the clutch disc specs. It's in Section 3 under Differential, and gives new and service limit clutch plate and clutch disc thickness specs. I think I'll take mine apart and measure.
 
Can you just try regular engine oil like originally specified by Honda for the manual transmission and change it more frequently?
I strongly believe that the diff won't be happy because regular engine oil is missing the additive package for the diff. Regarding to your post above I also think about a mixture of two oils.

I've been reading through the SM in advance of taking my transmission apart, and I found the clutch disc specs. It's in Section 3 under Differential, and gives new and service limit clutch plate and clutch disc thickness specs. I think I'll take mine apart and measure.
Oh, I missed that. Too bad I didn't measure them. Here they are:
diff_clutch_plate_specs.GIF
As we can see in my picture the plates don't look like brake discs at minimum and the clutch discs looked like they were like new.
 
Just a note that the '95 Shop Manual and '96 Supplement Manual state engine oil should be used only in an emergency in the transmission and replaced ASAP with the Honda MTF.
 
Just a note that the '95 Shop Manual and '96 Supplement Manual state engine oil should be used only in an emergency in the transmission and replaced ASAP with the Honda MTF.

Right, that was due to the change in LSD. I'm not aware of Honda ever saying don't use regular engine oil long-term in the '91-'94's.
 
I had the trans rebuilt by LarryB himself and he also installed the NSX-R spring kit. He filled with Honda MTF (white cap) and I never had any issues, whether on track or on the street, including in sub-zero temps. Smooth as butter! :D
 
I had the trans rebuilt by LarryB himself and he also installed the NSX-R spring kit. He filled with Honda MTF (white cap) and I never had any issues, whether on track or on the street, including in sub-zero temps. Smooth as butter! :D

me too.....I have a 96 5 speed he put the R ring and pinion with the shorties.
 
Honcho, docjohn, as you describe you've never had a problem: how often do you change the MTF?
 
i'm not sure if I mentioned this but I also have an R spec USDM 5spd. It had 20k on the odometer after the rebuild (by Nick Eustice) before I pulled it off for storage. I also noticed no strange noises with that trans. Now i'm quite curious what your noises sound like. Does it sound like straight cut gears?
 
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It sounds like a rattle when driving off a parking space and have to take a turn at low speeds when you haven't changed the gearbox oil long ago and the oil is getting older. No wining, not like straight cut gears or the like just a rattle. People who have an OS Giken and MTF might know how it sounds like.
 
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