Just a note, illwillem says he is running 0 after he got the non-compliance rear. It removes the bushing flex and toe change Honcho was talking about which is part of the reason for the original 6mm toe adjustment.
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Just a note, illwillem says he is running 0 after he got the non-compliance rear. It removes the bushing flex and toe change Honcho was talking about which is part of the reason for the original 6mm toe adjustment.
Skip Barber teaches "CPR": Correct - Pause - Recover.
Once the rear end steps out:
Correct (for the slide) - countersteer as quickly as you can while being off all of the pedals, no throttle or brake. When you're off all of the pedals, weight is transferred to the front tires. When you correct quickly by turning into the slide, the front tires will be pointed where you want them to go, so it's important to give them grip.
Pause (for the save) - keep countersteering until you're at full opposite lock and wait until the rear end regains grip.
Recover - QUICKLY turn back into the direction you originally were heading or want to go. This is VERY important because if you're too slow at recovering, your rear tires have grip, your front tires are pointed in the wrong direction, and you will DRIVE the car to a point you do not want to head. This is the 'snap-back' or 'crackback'. It's really important to be quick in this recovery in mid and rear-engine cars. It's much easier on nose-heavy and FR cars.
The problem wasn't the car or a function of the tires/suspension/bushings. Keep practicing because the NSX isn't the easiest to save a slide and be smooth at it.
Once the rear end steps out:
Correct (for the slide) - countersteer as quickly as you can while being off all of the pedals, no throttle or brake. When you're off all of the pedals, weight is transferred to the front tires. When you correct quickly by turning into the slide, the front tires will be pointed where you want them to go, so it's important to give them grip.
Pause (for the save) - keep countersteering until you're at full opposite lock and wait until the rear end regains grip.
Recover - QUICKLY turn back into the direction you originally were heading or want to go. This is VERY important because if you're too slow at recovering, your rear tires have grip, your front tires are pointed in the wrong direction, and you will DRIVE the car to a point you do not want to head. This is the 'snap-back' or 'crackback'. It's really important to be quick in this recovery in mid and rear-engine cars. It's much easier on nose-heavy and FR cars.
The problem wasn't the car or a function of the tires/suspension/bushings. Keep practicing because the NSX isn't the easiest to save a slide and be smooth at it.
I'm surprised nobody have mentioned SoS' non-compliance rear beam bushings yet?
http://scienceofspeed.com/products/.../NSX/ScienceofSpeed/non-compliance/rear_beam/
http://scienceofspeed.com/products/.../NSX/ScienceofSpeed/non-compliance/rear_beam/
Because I said I have titanium Dave's bushings in the 3rd post. LOL. Anyway I have no doubt with more time I will be able to control this everytime. It's just tough to get time where you can try all this stuff at high speed and safely. As billy mentioned, it can all be controlled if you do the right thing while driving. I was just wondering if there was something about my particular car that made this worse than usual, and it sounds like that is not the case.
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Dave, perhaps you already answered this, did you do drive the autocross with the TCS on or off? Huge difference regarding how the car handles.
Off. The things I am trying would not even be possible with the TCS on. I am trying to intentionally get the car to slide, drift, spin. So I can know how it behaves. And have learned a ton. I have 3 more events next month. Basically I wait until the drift and autoX events are over, then go out alone with a couple of cones and try things with special permission from the guys that run the events. I think the NSX gets me a bit of extra leeway I wouldn't get in a shitty car.
One test that I have found to be useful is turning a relatively tight circle with different throttle inputs and TCS off. I found it to be a good exercises in matching throttle with steering input until the back lets go for a spin. Doing the same with the TCS on was just no fun LOL!
Yup I plan to do more. I start with small circles and figure 8s then go to bigger ones then into high speed sudden turns then back to figure 8s and I keep making it tighter again. I want to so this so many times that nothing on the track will even raise my heartbeat by 10 BPM. I want "it's just another slide" type of calm.
Now that I think back, in the last 14 years and with some 110+ track days, all of my 5+/- spins at the track were before I had the non-compliance toe links and beam! Three were on the first track day in part to a student-instructor "failure to communicate"
The instructor coming from a Celica GT 4 banger said floor it so I did :biggrin: ....... but one of the spins was a mandatory rookie passage of rights (the off camber turn 3 at Thunderhill). The 4th was at Laguna Seca's cork screw - another mandatory rookie passage of rights. There must be a 5th someplace but who cares now ......... and the 6th was a few years ago with the non-compliance mods at Infineon on a wet day - so that really doesn't count :wink:
Though I usually stay within 9/10th I have noticed that with the non-compliance mods, when the back is about to go - and you will get a heads up with the non-compliance, a subtle very brief lift of the throttle settles "my car/set-up". YMMV.
The instructor coming from a Celica GT 4 banger said floor it so I did :biggrin: ....... but one of the spins was a mandatory rookie passage of rights (the off camber turn 3 at Thunderhill). The 4th was at Laguna Seca's cork screw - another mandatory rookie passage of rights. There must be a 5th someplace but who cares now ......... and the 6th was a few years ago with the non-compliance mods at Infineon on a wet day - so that really doesn't count :wink:Though I usually stay within 9/10th I have noticed that with the non-compliance mods, when the back is about to go - and you will get a heads up with the non-compliance, a subtle very brief lift of the throttle settles "my car/set-up". YMMV.
I've actually not been on the track since I've done my KW's and these stiff springs, the stoptechs, the rear beam, toe links, front clamps and sway end links, my STMPO rear brace, or the AD08's. Last I was on a track was skip barber, and before that I was on stock suspension, brakes, bushings. I'm sure the car will feel vastly different. Not to mention I now feel much more confident. I have a feeling I'm going to be MUCH faster.
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I can't believe I forgot!! LOL oh man look out McLarens...
Yeah, it's not hard to get into a bit of a "tank slapper" / crackback/snapback whateveryouwannacallit on the slow speed courses in a mid-engined car. The trick is being quick enough with the wheel and smooth enough with the throttle. I've autocrossed an older MR2 and my NSX for years and after sort-of mastering the MR2 with it's shorter wheelbase and open diff, the NSX is a cinch to "catch" at slower speeds. Once you know where your traction limit is, then you work on anticipating when one end will start letting go, so you can start steering as or even slightly before it actually starts to go.
Here's a decent "save" on a wet track. I had been working to see how much throttle I could use coming out of T2 at 'little Talladega and found the limit. Counter steer + throttle modulation = still in a straight line having not lost much speed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bf_nqFzF8WA#t=233s
On the other hand.....(As for those "high speed hpde incidents...or TT in this case").
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MoQLel7YFAo#t=586s
I didn't see it coming or really do anything to induce it (apart from using a little too much curb while already near the limit of grip) and wasn't quick enough with the wheel here to save it, but did have the presence of mind once it had gone to just lock everything down and slide straight down the track vs. continuing to try and fix a lost cause and ending up somewhere less friendly.
Here's a decent "save" on a wet track. I had been working to see how much throttle I could use coming out of T2 at 'little Talladega and found the limit. Counter steer + throttle modulation = still in a straight line having not lost much speed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bf_nqFzF8WA#t=233s
On the other hand.....(As for those "high speed hpde incidents...or TT in this case").
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MoQLel7YFAo#t=586s
I didn't see it coming or really do anything to induce it (apart from using a little too much curb while already near the limit of grip) and wasn't quick enough with the wheel here to save it, but did have the presence of mind once it had gone to just lock everything down and slide straight down the track vs. continuing to try and fix a lost cause and ending up somewhere less friendly.
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Just go drive the d@mn thing and quit worrying about this or that. Your car is in a new world from the last time u tracked it. Just drive!
My theory is the cause of snap-oversteer is lack of feel in most NSXs (I'm excluding cars with race-worthy suspension on top of slicks, etc). In the video posted the driver literally prevented the wheel from turning to the right quick enough to get back to where it needed to be (which it would have done for him at that point if he had simply let go). Now, letting go is not the thing to be doing at high levels of performance driving, racing, etc. as drivers can certainly do better than what a vehicle wants to do naturally. However, for many drivers what the car wants to do (what it would do if they let go) is better than what they would do. it is also not a bad way to learn feel. You at least see what the car wants to do...see where the steering wheel should be if the front wheels are to be pointed in the direction of the slide (momentum of the vehicle).
That basic knowledge/understanding can then be built upon...and folks can learn to improve on these natural dynamics (anticipation, smoothing things out, etc). I suppose in certain conditions snap-oversteer might be a natural thing for an NSX...but most of the examples I've seen (the posted video, at track events, etc) it is because folks over-react or are just too slow on secondary reaction (don't anticipate recovery, etc).
I very much recommend driving on dirt (other cars), ice, snow, rain, etc as building blocks to having such feel even in the dry (where things happen much more quickly). Sounds like you're doing some of what may eventually contribute to having feel (autox, drifting, etc).
That basic knowledge/understanding can then be built upon...and folks can learn to improve on these natural dynamics (anticipation, smoothing things out, etc). I suppose in certain conditions snap-oversteer might be a natural thing for an NSX...but most of the examples I've seen (the posted video, at track events, etc) it is because folks over-react or are just too slow on secondary reaction (don't anticipate recovery, etc).
I very much recommend driving on dirt (other cars), ice, snow, rain, etc as building blocks to having such feel even in the dry (where things happen much more quickly). Sounds like you're doing some of what may eventually contribute to having feel (autox, drifting, etc).
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exactly.......:smile:
FTW! best free driving lesson EVER! :biggrin:
Ah, sorry, didnt catch that.
No, the downside to a mid engine car is also the advantage - all the weight is in the middle. Think of an ice skater when they spin and bring their hands in tight. They spin faster, much faster. This is why mid engine cars "snap oversteer" which means they rotate easier too. But you have to be quick at your movements. Lots of small quick corrections.
To be clear, I'm not saying the car lacks feel...but drivers who snap-oversteer lack feel for the car (specifically they overdo the correction or are not quick enough at undoing the correction).
Here is my contribution. Small quick counter, immediately back to straight, still sliding, another small quick correction, back to straight.
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1UWh9_EA_8k?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>
Sometimes it's just a matter of releasing the wheel a bit and letting it correct itself before going back to straight.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NqZWMGqJTyw?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Latke, you are right in that people wait too long and then have to make full opposite lock to stop the slide and then it's hard to quickly get back to straight. It took me a while, but I have learned to make immediate small corrections. I was always concentrating on being smooth, but sometimes multiple small fast corrections are better than one large smooth correction.
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/x2pLziE2eps?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5GplkmgzfE0?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/1UWh9_EA_8k?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>
Sometimes it's just a matter of releasing the wheel a bit and letting it correct itself before going back to straight.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NqZWMGqJTyw?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Latke, you are right in that people wait too long and then have to make full opposite lock to stop the slide and then it's hard to quickly get back to straight. It took me a while, but I have learned to make immediate small corrections. I was always concentrating on being smooth, but sometimes multiple small fast corrections are better than one large smooth correction.
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/x2pLziE2eps?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5GplkmgzfE0?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>
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