Worst day At the Track :(

[skyline23]

Had one of the worst days ever yesterday at Laguna seca ...First run was only able to do 3 laps before track had to be cleared due to someone getting stuck in the dirt. 2nd run went great for 15 minutes, then I randomly get flagged for noise violation (95db), so that ended my session. A little confusing since I have been here 3 times before and only have a basic, smog legal comptech exhaust...Maybe I was going faster past the sound station since I'm slowly improving?...

then 3rd run, maybe 3 laps in, between turns 5 and 6, a caution flag comes up to slow the whole track down...so I coast along smoothly until right about turn 9, my oil pressure suddenly drops, and I hear a deathly sounding rattle/clunking/vibrating noise coming from the engine..I immediately pull out into the paddock and shut the car off...I check the engine quickly, dont see anything spewing out, so turn the car on for a second more, see that the noise is still there and oil pressure is still dropped, and kill it.

I then call AAA since I have their 100 mile free tow, but stupidly tell them I was on the track, and they said they won't cover it since it's against policy to tow a tracked car for free. So to top it all off, I had to shell out 270 bucks to tow my car all the way back to San Jose.

Do you guys think I have the dreaded "blown rod bearing due to oil starvation"?..I am scared that it is, but I really don't see how. I am not on R compound tires, am still a novice driver so am not taking turns that fast, the oil level prior to the third run was 3/4 full between min and max lines, and was told Laguna Seca doesn't even have long enough left handed turns to get it to happen...anyone have any thoughts on this?


Anyway, the car is now sitting at my house until Shad from Driving Ambition can pick it up, so I just wanted to vent and see if anyone had any experiences/input on this. sigh.

 

[Ponyboy]

As someone who has blown up his engine on track, please accept my automotive condolences. It sucks BAD. But it's not the end of the world. And it may not be busted at all although it's difficult to reach another conclusion from your description.

When I did it, I wasn't on R compounds either - bridgestone SO-2s iirc. However, it was in a high g turn with quite a bit of elevation change. One thing to consider, if you're not the original owner, you may not have done the majority of the damage but merely the "straw that broke the camels back." I'm sure that does little to lessen the sting of a potentially blown motor.

All that said, you've got one of the best nsx mechanics around working on your car and he'll get to the crux of whatever went wrong.

Hoping the best!

 

[skyline23]

Thanks for the condolences. So what was the damage for your car? Did it need a full rebuild? ..Did you install an oil pan baffle or accusump afterwards to be safe?

 

[docjohn]

sucks poopy.I have been there as well twice.At least for me my AAA covered me for the 100 miles from the track.I was also black flagged for sound once so I bought the silencers for my gtlw exhaust.My first spun rod bearing happened on street tires,it just happens. At least you have the motor in the right guys care. After many years I now have billet oil pump gears and a baffled oil pan. I never did do the acusump simply because of the added complexity(like leaks) and additional maintainace that come with such a system.

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

That really sucks, Hopefully it is not as bad as it sounds.
But if it is, Ponyboy said it right, you have great people working on your car!!

Good luck,

-MSR

 

[Ponyboy]

Thanks for the condolences. So what was the damage for your car? Did it need a full rebuild? ..Did you install an oil pan baffle or accusump afterwards to be safe?

The damage: http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=863

The rebuild thread: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85793&highlight=hallett+bearing

Rebuild gallery: http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=862

Enjoy!

 

[RYU]

The damage: http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=863

The rebuild thread: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85793&highlight=hallett+bearing

Rebuild gallery: http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=862

Enjoy!

It looks like you had installed the SoS Oil Pan Baffle prior to the KaBoom too. Any other precautions you've taken since?

I'm going thru the same process but wondering if a baffle will be enough

 

[Ponyboy]

It looks like you had installed the SoS Oil Pan Baffle prior to the KaBoom too. Any other precautions you've taken since?

It's a baffled oil pan from a different vendor that has since been sold. An ARC baffled high capacity pan has since taken it's place. A 3qt Accusump has also been installed. The new pan is the shinny thing above the shinny header.

Kinda wish SoS, DA, or CT would come out with a dry sump system.

I'm going thru the same process but wondering if a baffle will be enough

IMHO, a baffle isn't enough. An Accusump is a must have. However, well-respected members, like docjohn above, chose not to install one for various reasons so one may want to consider their choice as well.

 

[docjohn]

Thanks pony....but my decision is based on my current situation....very few track days,and my desire to keep it simple .....:redface:

 

[skyline23]

That is kind of how I was feeling. I only plan on doing about 6 track days a year, so was hoping that even a baffled oil pan would be a bit overkill..But it sounds like even that won't ensure you from a blown engine?...I usually take my car to the shop to change my oil, sio how much more complicated does the accusump make things like oil changes? Can a normal shop change my oil still or do they have to have experience with these systems?

Thanks pony....but my decision is based on my current situation....very few track days,and my desire to keep it simple .....:redface:

 

[jryt]

sorry to hear this.
I was there on wednesday as well, in the Mixed group (black nsx with R888)
There was another black nsx with a wing, an instructor and a white nsx
race car with twin turbo setup by driving ambition. I briefly talked with them. nice folks.

As to your issue, I don't have baffled pan nor accusump and I'm there
regularly in my 91 on R-compound, no problem. It's just that things happen. It could have happen on street.

Don't be paranoid over it. Once the car is fixed, enjoy it.

a guy in 2004 gt2 (advanced group) had to get towed to the dealership. After 5 laps, he dropped all his coolant on turn 2, white smoke everywhere. He wasn't happy at all by what he decribed a crappy design on a so expensive car.

At least your car is failing after 20y.

 

[skyline23]

Thanks for the input. So what would your recommendation be for a street car that is tracked occasionally? upgraded oil gears, a different brand of oil baffle, or something else? Actually, the even more depressing part is that my internals are NOT 20 years old. my car had a supercharger on it for over 10 years, and when I bought it it 4 years ago it was my daily driver for the first 3 years. I took great care of it, but it finally gave out at 120k miles, and so I actually had my motor rebuilt by Driving Ambition just last year. New forged pistons,conecting rods, bearings, head work, lower compression,etc, along with a AEM FIC to monitor the air/fuel safely..So for it to blow on me AGAIN so soon after is incredibly frustrating.

And just to make it clear, I am not at all trying to bad mouth Driving Ambition, I am just merely pointing out the unfortunate circumstance I am in right now. Shad has been very responsive throughout this process and is picking up the car next week to take back to his shop and diagnose the issue/issues.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice guys, I appreciate it.

 

[docjohn]

My best advice reading more of your info......listen to shad and keep your wallet open:biggrin:

 

[StmpoRaceProducts]

Thanks for the input. So what would your recommendation be for a street car that is tracked occasionally? upgraded oil gears, a different brand of oil baffle, or something else? Actually, the even more depressing part is that my internals are NOT 20 years old. my car had a supercharger on it for over 10 years, and when I bought it it 4 years ago it was my daily driver for the first 3 years. I took great care of it, but it finally gave out at 120k miles, and so I actually had my motor rebuilt by Driving Ambition just last year. New forged pistons,conecting rods, bearings, head work, lower compression,etc, along with a AEM FIC to monitor the air/fuel safely..So for it to blow on me AGAIN so soon after is incredibly frustrating.

And just to make it clear, I am not at all trying to bad mouth Driving Ambition, I am just merely pointing out the unfortunate circumstance I am in right now. Shad has been very responsive throughout this process and is picking up the car next week to take back to his shop and diagnose the issue/issues.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice guys, I appreciate it.

first question.... when you rebuilt your motor... did you buy/use the upgraded CT high pressure oil pump gear?

 

[CL65 Captain]

FWIW - you need to prime an accusump everytime you drive your car... if you fail to do so... the sump can rob your motor of oil... accusumps are for race cars only... they only help in banked turns

Ross, I love my Accusump. It is on a pressure switch and keyed to the ignition and a switch on my dash. Before shutdown, I turn it off storing the pressurized oil and turn the ignition off and then turn the Accusump switch back on. Since it's keyed to the ignition power, when I go to start the engine next, it dumps automatically and I never have a "dry" start. Plus, on the track it gives me piece of mind. I don't think you have to be on a "banked turn" to get the pickup to run dry momentarily. One of the tracks I run on has a very long 70 deg sweeping turn taken at 80 where I'm pulling a constant 1.2g for 15+ seconds. Not saying it would, but it could. For the $300 it cost me to put this together, I think it's cheap insurance.

So I'm going to have to disagree with you that Accusumps are "for race cars only".

 

[Hrant]

- you need to prime an accusump everytime you drive your car... if you fail to do so... the sump can rob your motor of oil... accusumps are for race cars only...

Coz, help me out (ie educate me) on this; I am not the techie type but I can follow a reasoned explanation :wink: Why would the accusump rob the motor oil?

The OEM engine/pan takes about 5 qts of oil and the 3 qts accusump takes 3 qts. If you pressurize the accusump to take all the 3 qts that in can fill, that leaves the balance of the 5 qts in the engine/pan no?

I thought the purpose of the assusump was primarily to dump oil when the engine hits VTEC and the oil pressure drops -especially with g loads too, and even with a baffled pan having that extra oil would help ...... and the secondarily to prime the engine with oil before cranking the ignition.

What am I missing - in layman's terms?

Edit: Agree with CL65 Captain.

 

[Coz]

I do as well. Cheap warning insurance that failure is about to happen, as long as you monitor your oil pressure gauge and can react quick enough. They say it gives you 3 to 5 seconds to react.

I also have mine on an electronic/pressure circuit. I also have a large capacity baffled oil pan. My pan holds 7.5 quarts of oil and the Accusump holds 3. So I have a total of 10.5 quarts.

Accusumps charge their tank when the motor is running all the time as long as the oil pressure is above your pressure switch valve choice and you have it hooked up, whether they are switched on or off, if you have it plumbed correctly...

I know of a lot of race cars that use a manual flow valve on their Accusump to control the flow all the time which would be totally on or off. Many race cars set their systems up like this so there can't be an electronic failure in the system. (one less thing to worry about)

When oil pressure drops below the valve pressure, the Accusump feeds the system as long as the switch is on. If the switch is off, then nothing happens feed wise to the pan no matter how low your oil pressure gets.

I turn mine on during the warm up lap and turn if off during the end of the cool down lap.

I don't use it on the street. No reason to and I don't want my Accusump dumping 3 quarts of oil into my pan at idle.

If I have my Accusump switch on and turn the key to the on position, motor not running, there is no oil pressure and the Accusump will dump oil into the oil pan. That is what is suppose to do. This is also how you drain the Accusump when doing oil changes.

If the Accusump is off and I turn the key to the on position, nothing happens with the Accusump. The motor starts and runs just like any other car with the oil in the pan.

Filling the system is opposite. You fill the pan, start the motor, raise your oil pressure up above the pressure switch and the Accusump fills, again, whether the Accusump is switched on or off. I fill mine with the switch off and do it in stages checking the level of oil in the pan as I go until I get the Accusump up to 80psi, which tells me it's full and then top the pan off to the line level on the dipstick. With it on though, you have to make sure you keep your oil pressure above the valve pressure otherwise you'll start dumping oil back into the pan and never get a correct reading oil level wise.

I think they are great insurance as well, which is why I have one.

Also....Canton will service your Accusumps for $60.00 if needed.

Ross, I love my Accusump. It is on a pressure switch and keyed to the ignition and a switch on my dash. Before shutdown, I turn it off storing the pressurized oil and turn the ignition off and then turn the Accusump switch back on. Since it's keyed to the ignition power, when I go to start the engine next, it dumps automatically and I never have a "dry" start. Plus, on the track it gives me piece of mind. I don't think you have to be on a "banked turn" to get the pickup to run dry momentarily. One of the tracks I run on has a very long 70 deg sweeping turn taken at 80 where I'm pulling a constant 1.2g for 15+ seconds. Not saying it would, but it could. For the $300 it cost me to put this together, I think it's cheap insurance.

So I'm going to have to disagree with you that Accusumps are "for race cars only".

 

[Coz]

Hrant,

You're not missing anything really. I was quoting the Ross post.
The only way the Accusump could rob the motor from oil is if your oil pan was low to begin with major amounts of oil, with the Accusump on and your oil pressure is high.

Then it will want to feed the Accusump until it's full and stay that way until the oil pressure drops again at which time it will pump oil back into the pan.

So in a way, yes it could, if one was stupid enough to run their car 1-2 quarts low of oil to begin with.

I also agree with Captain, totally.

Coz, help me out (ie educate me) on this; I am not the techie type but I can follow a reasoned explanation :wink: Why would the accusump rob the motor oil?

What am I missing - in layman's terms?

Edit: Agree with CL65 Captain.

 

[Hrant]

Hrant,

You're not missing anything really. The only way the Accusump could rob the motor from oil if you pan oil was low to begin with major amounts of oil, with the Accusump on and your oil pressure is high.

Then it will want to feed the Accusump until it's full and stay that way until the oil pressure drops again at which time it will pump oil back into the pan.

So in a way, yes it could, if one was stupid enough to run their car 1-2 quarts low of oil to begin with.

I also agree with Captain, totally.

Yep, given that premise of low oil in the pan to start with, makes sense now :wink:

 

[Coz]

Glad I could help brother.
....and thank you for introducing me to Carbotech !
Mike and I have become good friends and he's helping me a great deal.

Yep, given that premise of low oil in the pan to start with, makes sense now :wink:

 

[Ponyboy]

So I have a total of 10.5 quarts.

Considering the placement of your accusump, Coz, you may have .5 or more tied up in the lines themselves. All that oil is a great heatsink and temp stabilizer.

 

[Coz]

Yes, at least 1/2 a quart when you figure the filter, hoses and the Laminova.

I need to now change over to a dual pass radiator next to slow and cool the water more since I am using the Laminova oil to water cooler which will help keep everything lower and more in sync.

Considering the placement of your accusump, Coz, you may have .5 or more tied up in the lines themselves. All that oil is a great heatsink and temp stabilizer.

 

[CL65 Captain]

I may be wrong but I believe that a 3Qt Accusump holds 2Qts of oil and 1Qt is the air behind the piston.

 

[Ponyboy]

I may be wrong but I believe that a 3Qt Accusump holds 2Qts of oil and 1Qt is the air behind the piston.

Hmmm....I was always under the impression that the cylinder was large enough for three qts plus the pressurized air.

I'll give Canton a call next week to be sure.

 

[Track Addict]

OP, putting your car on track earns kudos from me (and most anyone that lurks this section of Prime). Blown motors happen as you well know from experience. I have seen Accusumps save people from complete engine failures a few times (these all were full race cars) Given your situation I would probably say that if you are concerned about oil starvation (should you decide to rebuild your car again) purchase yourself a nice Accusump, have it installed and operate it properly (along with all the regular maintenance). As others have stated it is a cheap insurance policy, the one time you use/need it, I am sure that you will be happy you have it.

I plan on getting an Accusump when I get my engine built.

GL on getting your car back up and going, post it in the "build" forum!