Just for fun

[BD]

Vance,
I know you don't like suggestions, but I suggest you not bet. You would lose the bet for sure even if you have 500rwhp. Reason is simple, not with those worn out ES100 tires, seriously:biggrin:. No R-parts can over come worn out so so tires.

It is not extra 60hp, different dyno, different results. He "could" have 400rwhp on our dynos. Thomas put down 392rwhp on Autowave dyno on a 02+ and he doesn't have all the supporting mods.

Jason, read Dave's criteria!!!

If NSX can thrash around 360 (including the CS) and 996 GT3/TT on the BMI battles, there is a very very good possiblilty that it can beat a Standard NSX with CTSC. Yep, I'll put money on it if I can get some one awesome like Gan San or Tsuchiya to test the cars!!! ES100 is worn out, wait till I get the new tires next month... Don't hate:biggrin: I know you are a big fan of FI, but sorry, the car behave very different on a car that is not ment to be FI.

AND, I'm talking about my car compare to Dave's. If some one show up with a NSX with CTSC and Type R suspension, yep, that car will beat my for sure.



and FORZA... lol Remember Jeremy Clarkson did the Laguna Seca run? He was off by about 20 seconds... Grant it, he did have the R version, but we are talking about maybe 3 to 5 seconds per lap.

 

[scorp965]

If NSX can thrash around 360 (including the CS) and 996 GT3/TT on the BMI battles

Best Motoring videos are not an accurate indicator of the car's performance, the entire setup is wrong, the recent comparisons with much better performing cars are something of a joke, its the nsx-r getting a better launch, kamakazi'ing to the front of the pack, and blocking for the 3 or so laps they allow the cars to run.

A more-accurate comparison would be timed free-lapping, but even then they compare drivers not fully pushing cars they have never driven before against an nsx-r being driven at 110% by its owner, who has a huge amount of seat time in the chassis, probably has brake points memorized, etc.

I'll put money on it if I can get some one awesome like Gan San or Tsuchiya to test the cars!!! ES100 is worn out, wait till I get the new tires next month... Don't hate:biggrin: I know you are a big fan of FI, but sorry, the car behave very different on a car that is not ment to be FI.

On the subject of Japanese car-comparison videos, have you seen the clip from American touge 2 where Tsuchiya drives a fully-setup CTSC nsx, and makes the statement "if this car were sold in Japan I would buy one"? For somebody who has a good deal of experience in the nsx, and the nsx-r, he seems to favor the CTSC.

 

[BD]

Best Motoring videos are not an accurate indicator of the car's performance, the entire setup is wrong, the recent comparisons with much better performing cars are something of a joke, its the nsx-r getting a better launch, kamakazi'ing to the front of the pack, and blocking for the 3 or so laps they allow the cars to run.

A more-accurate comparison would be timed free-lapping, but even then they compare drivers not fully pushing cars they have never driven before against an nsx-r being driven at 110% by its owner, who has a huge amount of seat time in the chassis, probably has brake points memorized, etc.



On the subject of Japanese car-comparison videos, have you seen the clip from American touge 2 where Tsuchiya drives a fully-setup CTSC nsx, and makes the statement "if this car were sold in Japan I would buy one"? For somebody who has a good deal of experience in the nsx, and the nsx-r, he seems to favor the CTSC.

I saw the episode. The funny thing is, you just contradict your on words. It's not like he can't buy a CTSC and stick into his car; the product is available and will be pocket change for him. The fact that two years after he drove the car, and his car is still NA, maybe he was trying to be nice? I never believed in the BMI battles not because it is done in Japan (and the NSX-R is a JDM icon), but those guys drives the car around laughing and giggling. You don't see F1 guys do that. However, I think the time attack laps/Best Time are very accurate; because each cars get to do 4 to 5 laps during the battles, and that is more than enough to find out what the car is capible of.

 

[scorp965]

I saw the episode. The funny thing is, he can buy a CTSC and stick into his car, that will be pocket change for him. Do we see him do that, absolutely not. I never believed in the BMI battles, but I think the time attack laps are very accurate; because each cars get to do 4 to 5 laps, and that is more than enough to find out what the car is capible of.

It's a high profile car, if the bank owns his nsx-r they will know it has been modified, which could lead to complications. In addition it is useful to have a comparison nsx-r for banging out videos, if the car were supercharged it could no longer serve in this capacity. Add to this the possibility there might be partial ownership of the car, or at least some degree of insurance coverage, from video producers, who want an nsx-r, instead of a modified CTSC nsx, to help sell DVD's.

IIRC didn't he have a modified type S nsx? If he still had this car the installation of a CTSC seems more likely, but to modify a factory NA2 NSX-R? Something of a stretch. Fwiw, there are several highly modified NA1 NSX-R's, including two GMSC NA1 type R's that have been sold on YJ auctions.

It's all armchair (or xbox) racing, YMMV.

 

[BD]

Dream on buddy.... I just beat the real thing... not some wannabe conversion project. :biggrin:

We can all dream...lol Including you :biggrin:

 

[scorp965]

I saw the episode. The funny thing is, you just contradict your on words. It's not like he can't buy a CTSC and stick into his car; the product is available and will be pocket change for him. The fact that two years after he drove the car, and his car is still NA, maybe he was trying to be nice? I never believed in the BMI battles not because it is done in Japan (and the NSX-R is a JDM icon), but those guys drives the car around laughing and giggling. You don't see F1 guys do that. However, I think the time attack laps/Best Time are very accurate; because each cars get to do 4 to 5 laps during the battles, and that is more than enough to find out what the car is capible of.

I feel there is an extreme bias towards the nsx in BM videos, that having been said, when they're comparing one nsx to another nsx, the impact of this preference is eliminated. In the case of the CTSC nsx the video clip serves to show Tsuchiya's general feelings towards the comptech nsx - he has no reason to 'be nice', he has trashed several other tuner cars in other video clips.

These video clips are more of an indicator on the driver's comfort in the vehicle, and his knowledge of the track. If you watch extended comparisons you can see other drivers becoming more-comfortable in their respective cars, and start to lap faster than the nsx-r. If the 360 has a laptime two seconds faster than the nsx at the end of the video, but finishes behind it, can you really say the nsx has "thrashed" the Ferrari?

If the chassis is the same, there is no braking or suspension advantage, how can a car, once mastered by its driver, that produces more horsepower and torque, end up being a slower package than an identical car with less power? If you're comparing a stock nsx with a CTSC to the nsx-r then yes, there are several advantages in the correct situation. If you're comparing the cars on a drag strip the nsxr's advantages are irrelevant. If you're comparing them on a sweeping track the power advantage is much more pronounced, if you're comparing them on a tight track, where an advantage is seen with braking more so than power, then obviously the situation changes again. It's not fair to say one car is broadly better than the other, but the advantages of the nsx-r over a highly modified FI nsx can be reduced considerably, and the result will be a car that, if done correctly, will be faster in more situations than the nsx-r.

100rwhp or more is a huge gap to overcome with hood scoops and flat panels

 

[BD]

I feel there is an extreme bias towards the nsx in BM videos, that having been said, when they're comparing one nsx to another nsx, the impact of this preference is eliminated. In the case of the CTSC nsx the video clip serves to show Tsuchiya's general feelings towards the comptech nsx - he has no reason to 'be nice', he has trashed several other tuner cars in other video clips.

These video clips are more of an indicator on the driver's comfort in the vehicle, and his knowledge of the track. If you watch extended comparisons you can see other drivers becoming more-comfortable in their respective cars, and start to lap faster than the nsx-r. If the 360 has a laptime two seconds faster than the nsx at the end of the video, but finishes behind it, can you really say the nsx has "thrashed" the Ferrari?

If the chassis is the same, there is no braking or suspension advantage, how can a car, once mastered by its driver, that produces more horsepower and torque, end up being a slower package than an identical car with less power? If you're comparing a stock nsx with a CTSC to the nsx-r then yes, there are several advantages in the correct situation. If you're comparing the cars on a drag strip the nsxr's advantages are irrelevant. If you're comparing them on a sweeping track the power advantage is much more pronounced, if you're comparing them on a tight track, where an advantage is seen with braking more so than power, then obviously the situation changes again. It's not fair to say one car is broadly better than the other, but the advantages of the nsx-r over a highly modified FI nsx can be reduced considerably, and the result will be a car that, if done correctly, will be faster in more situations than the nsx-r.

100rwhp or more is a huge gap to overcome with hood scoops and flat panels

How many BMI battles have you seen?
Of course F and L cars have beaten the NSX-R; I guess depend on the track they're on.
So here is my final question. Where is Tsuchiya's CTSC if he claimed that he will own the car if he can get his hands on one? Regardless, the only way to find out the out come is by having a shoot out, don't you agree? Even in the Forza simulation, you are talking about less than 1 second apart.

Let's do this!!! Let's go to Buttonwillow and find a good drive to do some laps in our cars. You, me and Jason:wink:

 

[scorp965]

So here is my final question. Where is Tsuchiya's CTSC if he claimed that he will own the car if he can get his hands on one?

#29 :wink:

 

[BD]

#29 :wink:

What is there to modify? A piggy back will work the same on a NSX-R. So he didn't get one?

 

[scorp965]

What is there to modify? A piggy back will work the same on a NSX-R. So he didn't get one?

If the car is partially owned, or insured/funded by a production company, and they want to compare the nsx-r against a variety of vehicles every three weeks, they have no interest in modifying the car for additional power when they're after a factory benchmark. Even if the car is fully owned by Tsuchiya he has a financial interest in bringing the car, in its stock condition, to various DVD 'battles' - if the car is not _stock_ the value of the car, from the point of making DVD's, is reduced.

The situation is not one of an nsx owner with his nsx sitting in the garage, throwing money at it for maximum performance. Taking an NA2 nsx-r and adding a supercharger would provide an increase in performance, but performance is not the only concern in this circumstance. There is also perhaps a nostalgic reason for not modifying the car, similar to BMW M3 LTW's; adding forced induction would result in additional performance, but it is a factory-tuned vehicle, with collectible value, and ripping it apart to modify the car makes no sense, there are several other available 'donors' under $140k, that could then be modified to the same state.

 

[BD]

If the car is partially owned, or insured/funded by a production company, and they want to compare the nsx-r against a variety of vehicles every three weeks, they have no interest in modifying the car for additional power when they're after a factory benchmark. Even if the car is fully owned by Tsuchiya he has a financial interest in bringing the car, in its stock condition, to various DVD 'battles' - if the car is not _stock_ the value of the car, from the point of making DVD's, is reduced.

The situation is not one of an nsx owner with his nsx sitting in the garage, throwing money at it for maximum performance. Taking an NA2 nsx-r and adding a supercharger would provide an increase in performance, but performance is not the only concern in this circumstance. There is also perhaps a nostalgic reason for not modifying the car, similar to BMW M3 LTW's; adding forced induction would result in additional performance, but it is a factory-tuned vehicle, with collectible value, and ripping it apart to modify the car makes no sense, there are several other available 'donors' under $140k, that could then be modified to the same state.

John, you need to remove the word "if." Do you think some one such as Tsuchiya will need to finance a NSX? Some one such as Tsuchiya give a damn if he looses value of his car if he made it faster by using CTSC when it can be put back to stock form with half a day of work? Nostigic reason, you made it sound like once CTSC is installed, it is irreversible!!! If he TRULY loves the CTSC, do you think he can't afford a beater NSX and have that as a fun car? Who knows what's on his mind, as I have encountered with Japanese people, regardless if they like or dislike any thing, they are usually very polite about it. You said it your self, if it is available, he will own it, but two years later, he still don't have it.

Steve was nice enough to let me test drive his car, I didn't push it, but I know what it can do, and I "love" it. BUT, I don't own it. I want it but after I analyzed the product, I decided against it. Not because I don't want the speed, but I didnt' want to alter what Honda's intention for this car. If I want a faster straight line car, I'll buy a faster straight line car. Yeah, maybe because CT had my money for four months without shipping the product got me really pissed off, but I'm happy with what I currently have.

Vance,

This is not a NA vs FI thread.

I don't hate man (other than for the reason in the last line in this post):biggrin:. I do feel pity or sorry sometimes for people's ignorance. I admit that, but people have freedom at well. That is cool. Whatever make them happy. NA is best if there is enough.

You seen what FI NSX does in the straights many times (from a roll and deadstop). You never owned a FI car or tracked the car in your life. Do you really understand the characteristics of various FI cars? I don't favor FI at all if there is more than enough satisfy me in to begin with. Not all forms of FI have same characterisics you can take a look at the area under curve.

If you stop by and talk to Doug Hayashi in Huntington Beach assuming his shop is still at Huntington Beach in same complex as Gemtech. I have some of his track videos (Pulp Racing) on VHS and DVD I can give it to you. If you talk to him, he can probably teach you a thing or two. In Volume 1&2, his NSX was NA. Volume 3&4 low boost whipple CTSC, you will see how much he improved his lap times.

Last and not least we were not talking about GT4. The comparison was Forza on Xbox360, even the old Forza on original Xbox was superior and more accurate in many aspects:biggrin::
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I don't hate unless someone said nasty none car related things to me or smartmouthing me for no reason while I am just minding my own business. In my life so far, I only really hated 1 person. It is really unfortunate.

I may not have driven a 800hp Supra, but I have driven EVO, STI, 300ZX, 3000GT, Lotus Espirit V8 Turbo. Does that answered your question?

We all know your car kick the living day light out of my car every time we drag, but that's not what were "suppose" to talk about, is it?

Jason, you keep on bring other stuff into this conversation. Are you reading the post line by line (according to the top of this thread)?

I'm talking about my vs. Dave's. I'm not talking about any of those highly tuned cars out there. The thread is for "fun," so the replies are for "fun." Some how you keep on bring examples that has nothing to do with my car, or Dave's car.

Dave listed criteria of his car, vs Stock NSX-R, so I figured why not have a little "fun" and challenge him based on what I have since my is the most likely to be the closeset to the real deal on this side of the earth, and maybe with new tires. At the end of the day, who cares which one is faster, because we have no way to compare!!! Unless we put it side by side, there will be no way to find out the result!!! I'm sure Dave is reading this and having some "fun" because this thread is for laughs and giggles.

How about this - Danny's 1000hp NSX vs JGTC NSX vs LeMan NSX. I'm sure some one on Prime will do a full analysis just because he/she has a lots of time, but at the end of the day, that's not what we're talking about.

Oh!!! BTW, depend on the track too. If we are on a oval track, yeah, than for sure any CTSC equipped NSX will win, but if we are on a street style F1 track suck as Suzuka or Monaco, the results may be very different.

Regardless which car is faster (my car, Dave's, or even yours), until we put them side by side on a tight track, no one here is right!!!

 

[nsxsupra]

Jason, you keep on bring other stuff into this conversation. Are you reading the post line by line (according to the top of this thread)?

Vance
My bad, you are totally right about that. I apologize:redface:

 

[BD]

Forget the apology, just smoke some hookah and drink some Mojito!!!:biggrin:

 

[nsxsupra]

Forget the apology, just smoke some hookah and drink some Mojito!!!:biggrin:

Sounds good. :biggrin: I do have to make one thing clear though, I wasn't bent out of shape at all in this discussion. Just bored 考え過ぎないでください/不要想太多.:wink:

But I kinda want to finish what I started though:smile: You know it kills me not finishing it completely. Oh Well. Time for bed. Hoping to get car weighted tomorrow.

I do want to make one point on Tsuichiya. He wasn't nice at all to the American tuners in American Touge and he didn't have to be nice. You can tell he is very biased before driven the car with his doubts and comments. It was a tight track too with little to no room to stretch the legs. There is no point for him to go FI. They have GTRs or big turbo set ups for even more power than SC over there if he desire.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Vance,

It is not extra 60hp, different dyno, different results. He "could" have 400rwhp on our dynos. Thomas put down 392rwhp on Autowave dyno on a 02+ and he doesn't have all the supporting mods.

Thanks Jason... I was just about to tell Vance not to make me go look for my 398 HP run... :tongue:

Anyway, we all know Vance is a hypocrite because he talks about how good factory R is all day long then he throws on a Fujitsubo, a GT-One and a Mugen part here and there... lol.... :biggrin:

Vance I have a "genuine Type R" airbox and air filter element for your car, I already paid the duties and taxes to bring it over from Japan, they are in mint shape, you can have the setup for $1600. Or I will trade it for a date with that girl in your avatar. Its a sweet piece, its pictured on the left: haha

 

[TURBO2GO]

On the subject of Japanese car-comparison videos, have you seen the clip from American touge 2 where Tsuchiya drives a fully-setup CTSC nsx, and makes the statement "if this car were sold in Japan I would buy one"? For somebody who has a good deal of experience in the nsx, and the nsx-r, he seems to favor the CTSC.

WHERE IS THIS VIDEO?!!! I'm going to put a copy in every DVD player at Vance's lounge so the customers can enjoy.... :biggrin:

Seriously do you have a link to this John?

 

[Deltron Zero]

I love the Forza comparison. That should be the response to every NSX vs. xxxxx post!

 

[Liquid]

Obviously it depends upon the track. Tracks with shorter straights and more curves will be advantage NSX-R, higher speed tracks with longer straights would be advantage CTSC. I would expect that on a generic track the CTSC setup would probably have the edge.

Also, what did you do to lose the 150 pounds? Or is this purely hypothetical?

 

[TURBO2GO]

Obviously it depends upon the track. Tracks with shorter straights and more curves will be advantage NSX-R, higher speed tracks with longer straights would be advantage CTSC. I would expect that on a generic track the CTSC setup would probably have the edge.

Also, what did you do to lose the 150 pounds? Or is this purely hypothetical?

Spare: 30
tool kit, jack, air pump: 15
engine cover (targa): 25
Change exhaust: 24
change headers: 12
change to R wing: 7
change Cats: 18
Stereo: 20

That's 151. That may not be 100% accurate but its close. I am also going to do battery, R hood and possibly seats. There is another 30 to be saved there.

I think anything more is too big of a compromise for me. I already drive around with no more than 5 gallons of gas at a time... :biggrin:

 

[nsxtasy]

* Falken Azenis RT615 tires are not in the game. The tires I selected are probably on similar with Goodyear GSD3s - and gave slightly better lateral grip than the stock NSX-R tires - maybe this is not entirely accurate?

I'm not sure why you say that. IMHO, and assuming it's not the middle of winter, the RT-615 is the best, stickiest street tire you can get on dry pavement, with the possible exception of the new Bridgestone RE-01R, which is just starting to come out in smaller sizes that will fit our cars (e.g. 205/45-16 and 245/40-17).

For additional confirmation of just how good the RT-615 is, check out the Grassroots Motorsports autocross test, in which it beat similar tires such as the Yokohama Advan Neova AD07 and BFG g-Force KD. (If you check out the Car and Driver test that the Goodyear won, you'll see that this same Yoko and BFG actually beat the Goodyear in overall dry performance, but lost overall when wet performance and treadlife were added in.)

I mean no disrespect for the F1 GS-D3; I recommend them all the time. What's remarkable about the Goodyears is not that they are the stickiest dry pavement tire you can get, but rather, that (compared with the stickiest dry tires) they are close in performance on dry pavement, they are much better in rain, and they last 2-3 times as many miles.

Back to my original point, I think the RT-615 is about as good a street tire (and as close to an R compound) as you can get for a test of this sort. I don't think that represents any disadvantage at all.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I'm not sure why you say that. IMHO, and assuming it's not the middle of winter, the RT-615 is the best, stickiest street tire you can get on dry pavement, with the possible exception of the new Bridgestone RE-01R, which is just starting to come out in smaller sizes that will fit our cars (e.g. 205/45-16 and 245/40-17).

For additional confirmation of just how good the RT-615 is, check out the Grassroots Motorsports autocross test, in which it beat similar tires such as the Yokohama Advan Neova AD07 and BFG g-Force KD. (If you check out the Car and Driver test that the Goodyear won, you'll see that this same Yoko and BFG actually beat the Goodyear in overall dry performance, but lost overall when wet performance and treadlife were added in.)

I mean no disrespect for the F1 GS-D3; I recommend them all the time. What's remarkable about the Goodyears is not that they are the stickiest dry pavement tire you can get, but rather, that (compared with the stickiest dry tires) they are close in performance on dry pavement, they are much better in rain, and they last 2-3 times as many miles.

Back to my original point, I think the RT-615 is about as good a street tire (and as close to an R compound) as you can get for a test of this sort. I don't think that represents any disadvantage at all.

ROFLMAO Ken, he meant "IN THE GAME" literally as in its not listed as a mod in Forza 2 and you break into this long explanation as to why they most definitely "are too in the game buddy!!!!" hehehe that was too funny. But thanks for setting the record straight.

 

[kenjiMR]

If a skilled driver was to race around a track, which car would he turn faster lap times in?

1) Factory NSX-R

2) My NSX with the following mods:

1) CTSC
2) Type R sway bars and chassis bars
3) Falken Azenis RT615's
4) header and Exhaust, cats. Dyno average 368 HP at wheels.
5) Racing Brake oversized BBK kit.
6) Titanium Dave's short shift kit, harness bar and 5 point harness
7) About 150 pounds of weight reduction
8) R wing, diffusor

BUT.... riding on STOCK springs and shocks. T, not coupe. I don't know about the weight difference, but I have no engine cover, no cats, lighter headers and exhaust, no spare or tools, floormats, R wing. Standard heavy battery.

I am seriously asking because my car is not factory tuned. It is a mish-mash of performance parts. I am sure the stock springs and shocks are no joy on a track. No compliance parts (rear beam, toe links, etc). But to its benefit, it is the fastest color.

I really don't know what would happen. What do you think?

The stock spring/shocks would be one of the first things to change if it was me. Also junk the clunky steering wheel. Stock suspension sucks. The Koni Yellow + HR spring would be the best bang for your buck. Also you might want to get 10mm spacer for the wheels.

 

[TURBO2GO]

why would I want 10mm spacers?

 

[ChongLee]

wasnt is gran turismo 4 instead of forza that jeremy c. did his comparison?
i dont recall...

anyhow,
yeah it depends on tracks.
tsukuba & ebisu/or mase for example.
.........
or my driveway compared to the highway.:biggrin:

 

[kenjiMR]

why would I want 10mm spacers?

If you ever change your suspension and use your OEM wheels, you'll see. You'll also limit your choices for brakes unless you change the wheels or add the spacer.