A little better audio wanted

[oscar_driver]

I agree an audio track from a CD is of course much better than a compressed Digital track, so, MAYBE, is the 6 CD changer that is a really REALLY bad OEM then ... because the difference was incredible, not even a bit better ... A LOT better once I switched to the GROM.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Active noise control? Or something else?

No, passive. Worked better than expected in my little trial yesterday! I was shocked!

 

[TURBO2GO]

I agree an audio track from a CD is of course much better than a compressed Digital track, so, MAYBE, is the 6 CD changer that is a really REALLY bad OEM then ... because the difference was incredible, not even a bit better ... A LOT better once I switched to the GROM.

I have had people tell me before that compressed music has sounded better to them than uncompressed music. Especially when playing through an inferior system. Since the sound system can't really play the dynamic range in uncompressed music well, the compression that actually has much less dynamic range sounds "better". There is lost resolution for sure, but at least now the system is playing certain sounds whereas before the amps and speakers that are unable to handle it just distorted.

Also, people have a tendency to mistake louder for better. If you setup any blind test and play the same thing only a couple of dB higher the second time, 9 of ten people will attest that the sound was better, clearer, deeper, etc. When all it was, was slightly louder.

One or both of these phenomena may be going on here. I don't know any other explanations. The Grom is using the same wiring and lines going into the radio. The only other factor is the DAC's. Iphone/iPad/ipods for the most part use a wolfson DAC, I don't think it is a lot better than the CD player's DAC's.

I still don't know how a Grom would make anything better.

 

[Hapa88]

I have had people tell me before that compressed music has sounded better to them than uncompressed music. Especially when playing through an inferior system. Since the sound system can't really play the dynamic range in uncompressed music well, the compression that actually has much less dynamic range sounds "better". There is lost resolution for sure, but at least now the system is playing certain sounds whereas before the amps and speakers that are unable to handle it just distorted.

Also, people have a tendency to mistake louder for better. If you setup any blind test and play the same thing only a couple of dB higher the second time, 9 of ten people will attest that the sound was better, clearer, deeper, etc. When all it was, was slightly louder.

One or both of these phenomena may be going on here. I don't know any other explanations. The Grom is using the same wiring and lines going into the radio. The only other factor is the DAC's. Iphone/iPad/ipods for the most part use a wolfson DAC, I don't think it is a lot better than the CD player's DAC's.

I still don't know how a Grom would make anything better.

My only guess is that the Grom Audio unit outputs a higher voltage preout signal and/or with the help of the iPod itself, adds level of digital processing to the signal prior to output.

I have the Grom Audio unit and it sounds leaps and bounds better than the FM radio and the tape deck alone. I've never used the CD Changer, so I don't know how that sounded.

Let's keep in mind here that while theoretically a CD has higher resolution than a MP3, the auditable difference in a 192kbps+ MP3 and a full resolution CD is difficult for most listeners to discern in a perfectly quiet test environment with High end audio components. In the NSX with the engine running and less than ideal speaker placement with outside noise, I'd think this would be even worse or impossible to differentiate. My NSX driving at 70mph in 5th gear is pretty loud ~75dB(A)+ if i remember correctly. That's quite a bit of noise for the stereo to overcome...
Also remember that those people are devoting their entire attention to only listening in those tests, a task that I find quite difficult if I'm truly driving my NSX. :smile:

Anyway, I would think iPods also benefit from additional digital processing power after (or possibly during) the Digital to analog conversion over standard OEM CD Changers. The ability to add extra equalization, for example, prior to output would definitely give the impression of better audio.

 

[geometro]

Super informative thread so far: I was considering buying a GROM unit also.

I'm interested in replacing my system with a slightly better than OEM system once the original unit fails: something that doesn't cost more than the car itself, doesn't add a lot of weight and looks completely stock (no separate tweeters or obnoxiously large amp in the trunk).

Some are plastic, some are made of wood. Problem with plastic is that it is just a poor material and too flexible for a baffle that must be ROCK SOLID for proper bass. MDF is better but it is not good over time as it doesn't like moisture in the long haul.

If a solid mount is needed, why not just mill out the baffle out of some 5mm carbon fiber sheet? That should be plenty rigid and light.

 

[e.pie]

Crutchfield has a decent sale on Focal stuff right now.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-WaddMG...x?c=3&nvpair=FFBrand|Focal&nvpair=FFCategory|[rank399]Car+Speakers&omnews=7721965

 

[TURBO2GO]

If a solid mount is needed, why not just mill out the baffle out of some 5mm carbon fiber sheet? That should be plenty rigid and light.

5mm CF will bend. It is not nearly stiff enough. I just received the baffle that is made by SOS. I am very surprised at its thickness and stiffness. It's not billet aluminum level but it is pretty darn good. What concerns me about it are the points it secures to the door. I think if the HPDE baffle is mounted well to the door it will be fine for even the highest powered woofer. The hole cut fits my Rockford woofer PERFECTLY. There is not even 1mm of gap, this is very important. But it really does some additional mounting spots or else the entire baffle will start to move and vibrate with the woofer. Not to create a buzz, but enough to muddy the bass. I've changed my mind about going aluminum after seeing this baffle. I think the gains will be minimal. After seeing this plate, I would not go with MDF.

Crutchfield has a decent sale on Focal stuff right now.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-WaddMG...x?c=3&nvpair=FFBrand|Focal&nvpair=FFCategory|[rank399]Car+Speakers&omnews=7721965

Focal stuff is great... Just heavy. I think using any woofers that are not using neodymium magnets in this car is bad. These Rockford woofers are 1.5 pounds. That's less than 50% of the weight of your typical heavy magnet woofer.

Let's keep in mind here that while theoretically a CD has higher resolution than a MP3, the auditable difference in a 192kbps+ MP3 and a full resolution CD is difficult for most listeners to discern in a perfectly quiet test environment with High end audio components. .

Don't forget many ipods are running 128 recordings. itunes recently "upgraded" a lot of their music to 192. Anyway I can tell a difference pretty easily. 192 is better... for sure... 320 is when it starts to become more difficult to tell.

Anyway, I would think iPods also benefit from additional digital processing power after (or possibly during) the Digital to analog conversion over standard OEM CD Changers. The ability to add extra equalization, for example, prior to output would definitely give the impression of better audio.

Yeah but those EQ settings are designed for use in their shitty headphones... I'm all for good EQ'ing, and that is why I think something like the JBL MS-2 is a good idea. I think Lexicon is doing much of the work for JBL's DSP units since they are under the same Harman umbrella.

Any of you guys wondering what room analysis can do should watch this demo on the MS-8. It is superior to the MS-2, but same concept. To keep things cheap, simple, and light, I think an iphone or android using the MS-2 should be great in an NSX. The EQ'ing that can take affect will give deep and flat bass. Without a sub. Again, less amp power, less wires, fewer drivers, no relocation of the EPS for a sub box, etc. Simple. I can't wait to hear it.

Wait as the videos start new after each one ends. When it gets to the "demo" part, click the two buttons to hear a difference. This is a demo only but it does make a big difference.

http://ms8.jbl.com/index.html#/ms-8-intro

 

[Hapa88]

Don't forget many ipods are running 128 recordings. itunes recently "upgraded" a lot of their music to 192. Anyway I can tell a difference pretty easily. 192 is better... for sure... 320 is when it starts to become more difficult to tell.

I too can tell the difference with most 128kbps sources on most audio systems, but the question is: can you hear the difference with 75 dB(A) of background noise? :biggrin:

 

[e.pie]

The stereo in my car consists of:
Stock head unit
PolkMOMO 6.5" components and 8" sub
Precision Power A600/4
Kenwood Kgc-4042A Equalizer
USASpec iPod adapter


Everyone that has heard it is blown away for how little I have in to it. The EQ really makes up a lot in what the stock headunit was lacking in adjustability.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I too can tell the difference with most 128kbps sources on most audio systems, but the question is: can you hear the difference with 75 dB(A) of background noise? :biggrin:

Yes. :biggrin: I really dislike compressed sound and can pick it up in the bass region very easily. There is no depth, lots of boom.

The stereo in my car consists of:
Stock head unit
PolkMOMO 6.5" components and 8" sub
Precision Power A600/4
Kenwood Kgc-4042A Equalizer
USASpec iPod adapter


Everyone that has heard it is blown away for how little I have in to it. The EQ really makes up a lot in what the stock headunit was lacking in adjustability.

Well I will be into this system for $600 including a set of $800 fosgate seperates, a 300 watt 4-channel amp, the JBL MS-2 processor, and my iphone playing 320Kbps music downloaded from MOG music service.

1) $600

2) Probably around 20 pounds of weight savings

3) 5x better sound than factory

4) straightforward and simple installation with no "car carving"

5) Possibly gaining passenger footwell space.

I'd like to see someone beat that.

here is the amp I got for $140. Not because it is bad, but the design requires no toroids. Tiny. Light weight aluminum chassis. They don't list weight but watch the video, as his hand hits the 18 gauge wire, it moves the amp sideways. It's a turbocharged amp :biggrin:

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/z6M-itzlRJY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[TURBO2GO]

Also considering this since I really don't need 4 channel like the alpine pdx and JL HD.

ony 3.75 pounds compared to alpine at 6.5.

More power than Fosgate, also pretty cheap

 

[geometro]

5mm CF will bend. It is not nearly stiff enough. I just received the baffle that is made by SOS. I am very surprised at its thickness and stiffness. It's not billet aluminum level but it is pretty darn good. What concerns me about it are the points it secures to the door. I think if the HPDE baffle is mounted well to the door it will be fine for even the highest powered woofer. The hole cut fits my Rockford woofer PERFECTLY. There is not even 1mm of gap, this is very important. But it really does some additional mounting spots or else the entire baffle will start to move and vibrate with the woofer. Not to create a buzz, but enough to muddy the bass. I've changed my mind about going aluminum after seeing this baffle. I think the gains will be minimal. After seeing this plate, I would not go with MDF.

It's a moot point now, but 5mm (or just under 1/4") plate of CF is pretty stout. If it's not enough you can either bond in a stiffener if there is enough space, or epoxy 2 or more together until the desired "stiffness" or you run out of space.

Good to know the SoS baffle is GTG.

Excellent thread on a "reasonable" stereo upgrade: appreciate the info.

 

[NSX2398]

The stereo in my car consists of:
Stock head unit
PolkMOMO 6.5" components and 8" sub
Precision Power A600/4
Kenwood Kgc-4042A Equalizer
USASpec iPod adapter


Everyone that has heard it is blown away for how little I have in to it. The EQ really makes up a lot in what the stock headunit was lacking in adjustability.

I have even less $ into mine. I'm using the stock head unit and iPod adapter like you but stayed with the stock speakers & sub by bypassing the BOSE amps and transitioned to an Alpine amp which is mounted behind the drivers seat. By my ear, the sound is much better .. but might not be up to Turbo2Go's standards. Where did you mount everything .. especially the EQ?

 

[TURBO2GO]

I think once the MS-2 becomes available, ANY of you guys using ipod adaptors would benefit.

In addition to the MS-2, bypassing the internal iphone/itouch DAC's and preamp section has some benefit.

I'd probably use both, but either will improve sound quality by a decent margin:

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/W5AwsZ3cfTA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[e.pie]

I have even less $ into mine. I'm using the stock head unit and iPod adapter like you but stayed with the stock speakers & sub by bypassing the BOSE amps and transitioned to an Alpine amp which is mounted behind the drivers seat. By my ear, the sound is much better .. but might not be up to Turbo2Go's standards. Where did you mount everything .. especially the EQ?

I've got the amp mounted in the trunk and the EQ is in the glovebox.

SoS kickpanels to mount the speakers in the doors, and the sub is in the passenger footwell.

 

[jfcroni]

Lots of great ideas here. I too already have the Grom for the iPod. Maybe it does just come down to where the stock NSX speakers are located (really low). Even my wife's Ford Fusion has better sound than the 91 NXS. The high frequency speakers in the fusion seem to be the key -- they're more at ear level...also plenty of woof. Thanks for all of the ideas!

 

[NSX2play]

Greetings All….I have a 1991 NSX. I’m wondering what the simplest way to improve the sound system is. I’ve read the forums on major upgrades for the system — and a few less major upgrades…but I’m wondering if there are any ideas for making an improvement w/o replacing everything.

I love music, but I don’t need the “Full Monte” in the NSX. I have replaced the amps over the years, and the Bose currently works as designed…just looking for a little more.

I could be wrong but it seems to me the answer to the original post is something between Yes, absolutely and no, how could anyone outdo what the Bose engineers did with their meters and years of experience! :biggrin:

 

[TURBO2GO]

how could anyone outdo what the Bose engineers did with their meters and years of experience! :biggrin:

I'm sorry I am not laughing at you, but that is nontheless a funny statement mainly because the system sucks pretty bad. You don't know the mentality at Bose. Bose is about marketing, and PROFIT. They think that all other audio engineers don't know anything and that they know best. They don't follow the standard methods of audio engineering and think their often mickey mouse solutions are "good enough". And for people that know NOTHING about audio, they are. However if those very people had a decent system to compare to, they would instantly know the Bose sounds inferior. Don't forget this was also designed in 1991, and didn't really change. Bose concentrates on getting the most out of the LEAST expensive drivers. I am talking real crap. That pushes their profit margins way higher. I am not saying all they do is bad, they make stuff easy to use for the masses where mosr people would be lost with a more complex system. But for the same money you can always get something VASTLY superior with a minimum of research.

It doesn't take "golden ears" to know that a $600 system installed in an NSX will absolutely outperform the Bose system if done right. In the end, Bose accomplishes their goal efficiently. They have 40+ full time lawyers ON STAFF. What other audio company do you know of that has 40 plus lawyers on staff? Like on payroll. They will sue the pants off anyone that talks poorly of them in the audio industry. They monopolize stores even. When I sold Bose, if we so much as had one other brand of speaker next to a Bose system for comparison, we would lose the line. You ever notice Bose always sits in their own little sections in stores? that is by design. Then they spend an enormous amount on marketing, so that people ask "well isn't Bose the best?"...

 

[TURBO2GO]

I just realized you were perhaps being sarcastic... LOL... OK.. you got me. Now I'm all fired up... LOL

 

[NSX2play]

I just realized you were perhaps being sarcastic... LOL... OK.. you got me. Now I'm all fired up... LOL

It is too bad there isn't a sarcasm emoticon.....but was I being sarcastic?

Hell ya, I was being sarcastic. I can only imagine how much Bose charged for their design and yet audiophiles hate it. From my perspective, recorded music in an NSX is definitely secondary to the sonorous sounds of the engine's intake and (aftermarket, not OEM) exhaust. But some folks like their noise from inside the cabin, not the outside.

BTW, being a lawyer myself (but not the suing and ruining peoples' lives kind, more the public company lawyer making people rich kind) I admire companies like Bose that hire lawyers and keep them off of the streets. That is truly noble of Bose! :biggrin:

 

[NSX2play]

This doesn't make sense. Why would an ipod adaptor running off an ipod with music most likely encoded at 128 or 256K sound better than full wave CD's through the CD player? Are you guys sure it isn't just louder? from a technical standpoint it doesn't add up.

I agree, it is technically illogical (and perhaps impossible) that encoded music (which doesn't reproduce the full sound wave) would sound better than full wave Cds so long as (and this is the key) they are listened to at the same volume and in a proper listening environment.

So maybe it is a combination of both the iPod volume being higher (an old stereo salesman trick to make something sound better is to increase the volume - it fools most people) and the listening environment of the NSX being too loud to get the low bass and high tweets.

 

[NSX2play]

...Well I will be into this system for $600 including a set of $800 fosgate seperates, a 300 watt 4-channel amp, the JBL MS-2 processor, and my iphone playing 320Kbps music downloaded from MOG music service.

1) $600

2) Probably around 20 pounds of weight savings

3) 5x better sound than factory

4) straightforward and simple installation with no "car carving"

5) Possibly gaining passenger footwell space.

I'd like to see someone beat that.

Do you mean $1400 including a set of Fosgate separates, or $600 plus a set of $800 Fosgate separates? For some, $1400 is becoming a farily big investment.

 

[cosmod250]

Greetings All….I have a 1991 NSX. I’m wondering what the simplest way to improve the sound system is. I’ve read the forums on major upgrades for the system — and a few less major upgrades…but I’m wondering if there are any ideas for making an improvement w/o replacing everything.

I love music, but I don’t need the “Full Monte” in the NSX. I have replaced the amps over the years, and the Bose currently works as designed…just looking for a little more.

Sounds like you and I were looking for the same thing. I replaced the factory sub with an enclosure and sub from Angus and installed a single channel amp to drive it. I have both my Ipod and Sat radio hooked into my USA spec adapter and I am absolutely thrilled with the results. Easy install, not much money laid out in comparison to a full redo and a nice sound. I will never win an audio contest and don't want to, I just wanted a little more sound.

Peter

 

[TURBO2GO]

Do you mean $1400 including a set of Fosgate separates, or $600 plus a set of $800 Fosgate separates? For some, $1400 is becoming a farily big investment.

No, $600 total. You are looking at retail prices, this stuff can be had for about 1/2 on the internet. I am a home dealer so I get car stuff at cost as a favor and my total investement here was actually $600.

 

[TANTO]

I have had people tell me before that compressed music has sounded better to them than uncompressed music. Especially when playing through an inferior system. Since the sound system can't really play the dynamic range in uncompressed music well, the compression that actually has much less dynamic range sounds "better". There is lost resolution for sure, but at least now the system is playing certain sounds whereas before the amps and speakers that are unable to handle it just distorted.

Also, people have a tendency to mistake louder for better. If you setup any blind test and play the same thing only a couple of dB higher the second time, 9 of ten people will attest that the sound was better, clearer, deeper, etc. When all it was, was slightly louder.

One or both of these phenomena may be going on here. I don't know any other explanations. The Grom is using the same wiring and lines going into the radio. The only other factor is the DAC's. Iphone/iPad/ipods for the most part use a wolfson DAC, I don't think it is a lot better than the CD player's DAC's.

I still don't know how a Grom would make anything better.

Right on the money. This issue has been debated like crazy in the audio mags. Not to sound like some kind of a snob, but a dumbed down sample rate sounds better to most non-audiophiles. It's fatigueing though long term. I believe the Bose amps/speakers/bass tuning horseshit causes so much erant bass loading inside a car that even the digital stacato that comes with the ipod seems to "clean" it up somehow. My Grom sounds OK. I am not unhappy with the Bose setup though. It's a car, my car is a bit loud, and i'm not looking for great sound here. Some of the Bose setups like the Corvette are terrible. I haven't done it but adding a couple of tweeters would add some much needed "air" or the feeling of emmersion. That is missing in the OEM.