Corky sells all rights to Bell TT kit and more

[sjs]

Last year I initiated discussions with Corky about purchasing the rights to NSX TT kit because I felt it still had unrealized potential and yet the market was improving as used cars became more accessible. He agreed and was ready to discuss a deal but before we even really got started I bailed because it just didn’t seem to add up for me financially.

Well, he found other buyers and sold not only the NSX kit but also most of his other products and the Cartech name. (Corky will concentrate on the Mazda kits and also retained ownership of his patented variable FPR.) Hopefully that gives the new owners a sufficient product line to make a proper business out of it, whereas I was looking at the NSX kit as more of a hobby.

The gentlemen who bought the business are Preston Marshal and Michael Montgomery. I’m not aware of them being on the NSX forums, perhaps someone else will be, but I’m guessing that they were more interested in the other BEGI systems. I hope to speak with them at some length about the NSX system but at this time I don’t know what their plans for it are. I suspect they will need some time to get things sorted out and evaluated before making any formal decisions. I hope they did their homework out here to see how tough the competition will be!

 

[matteni]

Damn! So close! With you right in my back yard and us being best friends (you just don't know it yet) we could have dropped this thing right in my NSX so I could do some free advertising for you in the huge St. Louis aftermarket/boost NSX market!

Boy how things change! I spoke to Corky about his kit back in 98' and he was flying high on his ability to deliver to the NSX community (amount others). He seemed to me at the time as a younger version of Mr. Shelby.

What I need (and maybe the NSX community as a whole but I will just speak for myself) is a lower cost 80-100 HP, non NOS, forced induction system. It needs to be a clean package, easy to work on, and easy to install.

I think the "magic" price point is $2500 to $3000. You know - what other people pay before you tell them you have an NSX.

PLEASE - somebody buy, build, steel this and I will dig up the money from the back yard and buy this. I don't care if it is Corky's or anyone else. IMO - $6500 + installation for the Basch Boost super is still to high for many of us early year owners.

I am sure I am completely insensitive to the difficulties of our combustion engine vs. everyone else's and the low volume, etc.

If someone can figure this out reliably and deliver a solution that people can self install - they will have it!

Dreaming as usual. Maybe some day...

------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids

 

[Juice]

Preach it brother!

 

[BadCarma]

I read all the tuner mags as I have more then one car (not into the roll call thing as a sig or on my car doors.but myself and my wife whom is a pretty good mechanic..read fanatic as bad as any of us) love alot of various Japanese cars and like to stay on top of whom is doing what to the cars and what mods are available for our cars.headers one of our rides 399 my NSX same brand 1299. triple the cost for mods across the board compared with all other imports (we) are into.We can find a turbo or s/c for any of our other rides for 3000...sigh and then their is my NSX.I may very well resign myself to the fact that the only cheap HP for the NSX is NOS. I wish it was not so.but I can wish in one hand...you get the picture.I want to see a cost effective hp bump say 100 HP Turbo (prefered) for 3 to for 4k like everyone else gets.they say its the supply and demand thing for NSX (limited market) but there are turbos and s/c I wager that ARE going on cars that may be produced in larger volume (the cars not the mod) then our beloved NSX but sales figures would be about the same for those cars and our NSX'S if they were available at the same price.my basis for this scenerio is that NSX owners overall seem to be older and make more money then the average Joe,therefore allowing them to purchase the NSX.but the guys buying civics and the whole import scene are much younger and dont have as much cash to throw around so the 3k they pay is an enormous amount of money to them.its all relative.so the people saling to that crowd have demographed there target buying public and priced to that market.unfortunetly they have done the same thing to us. just IMO. I would love to see sales figures of turbos from a name brand manufacturer of after market performance parts targeting a mass produced car.I bet they are selling no more of those to a single car market then what we as a community would purchase.done with rant..did this make any sense at all or am I spazing out
David
PS I love my new MOMO steering wheel and Hub adapter(read japan import part) that cost me a mear 560$ parts only, not to bad for a steering wheel.Talk about a cheap mod. considering the 1000 man hours it took to set up the lathe or cnc and dont forget the guy who did the cad work for slave labor rates in some third world county. such a deal! need I point out my sarcasm or is it noticable

my mistake..1 hour to set up the lathe and cnc and twenty hours on the cad at 50 cents an hour.yep I am overreacting sorry..BTW I believe MB and MJ Dali are doing us rightous.they do price MJ in particular lower then most.

[This message has been edited by BadCarma (edited 01 August 2002).]

 

[matteni]

I totally agree about Mark Johnson / Mark Basch doing right by all of us in the price department. Everyone know my car is a rolling Dali Racing promotion and Mark/Mark have helped so many of us out (often for free) I hope they both become a millionaire 10 times over. IMO they earn every penny.

I also know Mark's new super will be the stuff of legend in a few months. It will easily be able to produce 200 HP for the brave at heart and will be the Rolls of forced induction and will be a great value even at the $6,500 + installation price.

Here's the catch - I am looking for a simpler, cheaper, less potential system - for less then 1/2 the money. Without doing a lot of research - from what I can tell you are looking at $2,000 in parts for a decent K27 turbo + plumbing (wholesale cost). Keep the HP down so you can keep the stock injectors and the stock ECU (maybe new chip to optimize F/A mix). Heck - you can even buy them re-manufactured like everything else these days.

Then (here is the magic of marketing) - sell upgrades! Want the 70 HP basic kit - here it is for $2500. Want the after cooler upgrade = $$$, upgraded injectors = $$$, upgraded ECU mapping = $$$, in car adjustments = $$$, laptop interface = $$$, software licensing for yearly upgrades and maps = $$$, etc.

Hell - I may even pay MORE at the end of the day then other options but you get me hooked in early and the fun never stops! All these ideas are free and can be used by any reputable shop - so long as we all win and there is an installation video that comes with it!

Then we can all brag that for a couple of grand you can bump the NSX up to 400 RWHP like every other sports car board does with the exception of Ferrari.

------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids

 

[sjs]

I understand and agree with many of your comments, which is one reason I had an interest in Corky's system. However, his cost on the Aerodynes alone was about $1k each, then you add in twin custom intercoolers, a custom exhaust made with dual SS Borlas, lots of custom plumbing, a pair of K&N filters, the variable FPR, and lot's of misc bits and pieces. The cost is already way above your desired retail price and I haven't even added in the auxiliary injectors and controller that he added awhile back. (But didn't work very well.) So, the system was already costly and needed significant enhancements. I figured that with some investment and marketing it could compete with CT and Gruppe M superchargers but in the same price range.

However, at that time Larry was busy working on his budget kit and the possibility of a low cost SC (the then unidentified BBSC) was already in the wind. That made sinking time and money into a $10k kit tough to justify, even if I feel it would have advantages if done right. As you said, there are already high-priced options out there, and what the market seems to want is a low cost per HP system they can install themselves if desired. The BBSC is a big step in that direction, and could be a DIY thing in the near future for those who want that option. (Not speaking for Mark here, just speculating.) Considering the technology included and the HP produced, I’d say it looks like a bargain for those who want an SC that pushes the limit of a stock engine. But yes, a simple $3-4k turbo system would probably round out the options nicely. I’d expect closer to $4k to produce something done well enough for your NSX. After all, it’s not a Miata motor that you can replace for a couple grand! If Larry and Gerry weren’t already in the market I’d be very tempted myself, but I think there’s enough competition now.

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by matteni:
... Then (here is the magic of marketing) - sell upgrades! Want the 70 HP basic kit - here it is for $2500. Want the after cooler upgrade = $$$, upgraded injectors = $$$, upgraded ECU mapping = $$$, in car adjustments = $$$, laptop interface = $$$, software licensing for yearly upgrades and maps = $$$, etc...

I agree, and that's what others have done. Corky as at least three stages for the Miata, starting about $3k, sold through Flyin Miata. I do think that market is bigger than ours, but you might be able to get one out the door for under $4k. I'm just worried about fuel management with stock injectors only. That's what killed the early success for Corky. Unfortunately, remapping for a turbo is much tougher (read much more expensive) than for an SC, so upfront costs would be high.

I'd still like to tackle it, but St. Louis is not exactly a hot market for such things.

 

[tunapie]

No bucks, no Buck Rogers. I bought a used Bell TT for $3,000 and after all the improvements (air/water aftercooler, Greddy e-manage and 440 injectors) it will pan out to $6,000. Now I hear Aerodyne has shutdown and as far as I know they are the only ones that service their turbo's. Talk about left holding the bag. Dan

 

[Jimbo]

I think the problem in a $2K-$3K forced induction product for the NSX is one of sales volume.

In my opinion, there's just not enough NSXes out there that don't already have a Comptech, GruppeM, or now a BBSC, to make the development effort financially worthwhile.

When you add up the engineering time, the prototyping, the testing and so on, I don't think there's enough potential NSX customers out there.

While NSX owners, on average, might not be at the same income level as Ferrari or Lambo owners on average, I would venture that for the most part, many NSX owners are fairly well off and whether the price is $6K or $10K, if they REALLY wanted a forced induction setup of some kind they would have bought it by now.

And now that the BBSC is being finalized and by all accounts is offering great performance at new lower pricing levels, I think this market is pretty much saturated.

It may be possible to have semi-custom turbo installs done for less, but at $2K-$3 total and considering that the components might comprise half the cost, it certainly doesn't leave much in the budget for X hours of highly trained NSX-turbo tech time.

The following statement is strictly my opinion and since I'm self-employed, it also reflects the opinion of my employer.

-Jim


------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[matteni]

I know a lot of people that are interested in what Larry G's $5,000 NSX Modified setup installed is all about.

It probably is a good deal - just IMO the packaging of it is so ugly that it really ruins it for me. If you have a reliable system that's running well and they can hide that thing under the engine somewhere and Larry starts traveling to do the install then you may have a winner at $5k installed.

At $3,500 out the door with an instruction manual you have a knockout!

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by tunapie:
No bucks, no Buck Rogers. I bought a used Bell TT for $3,000 and after all the improvements (air/water aftercooler, Greddy e-manage and 440 injectors) it will pan out to $6,000. Now I hear Aerodyne has shutdown and as far as I know they are the only ones that service their turbo's. Talk about left holding the bag. Dan

Interesting comment about Aerodyne closing, but that may explain why they haven't been answering the phone.

I left a message for Gerhard yesterday and when he called back I was in a meeting, so I hope to speak with him today. I certainly hope they have not gone under, their turbos are the best for their size. Not to mention I too hate to be stuck with ones that can't be serviced much less replaced.

As for your system, where will you put the new cooler? I've considered a small air/water in combination with the BEGI ones if I went higher boost, but I think the efficiency might suffer too much, and I don't want a huge one under the glass.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Originally posted by BadCarma:
.....headers one of our rides 399 my NSX same brand 1299........

Well, the NSX has 2 headers.

As far as the turbo comments to be around $3K-4K is unrealistic. I tried to itemize and try to build one myself to see what the cost is. Even with wholesale pricing, for twin turbo and proper fuel management unit, you will run minimal $4K. I think Mark Basch SC, and Larry's turbo are one of the best deal around.

 

[sjs]

js

Originally posted by Andrie Hartanto:
...I tried to itemize and try to build one myself to see what the cost is. Even with wholesale pricing, for twin turbo and proper fuel management unit, you will run minimal $4K...

Well, I don't think anyone was asking for twins at that price, which is why I said the Bell kit would find the competition tough. Some people just want an entry level single turbo DIY kit with lots of upgrade paths.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by sjs:
I don't think anyone was asking for twins at that price

Given his family size, Nick (matteni) was probably asking for twins, I bet.

Reminds me of the Groucho Marx remark: "Lady, you had eleven kids in twelve years??? I like my cigar, too, but I take it out of my mouth every now and then."

 

[BadCarma]

Originally posted by Andrie Hartanto:
Well, the NSX has 2 headers.

So does my other car yet still the price diff same brand

 

[Jimbo]

Bad,

Yes, but I bet your other car is produced in significantly higher production numbers than the NSX.

-Jim

 

[ak]

Originally posted by BadCarma:

Originally posted by Andrie Hartanto:
Well, the NSX has 2 headers.

So does my other car yet still the price diff same brand

I don't think NSX aftermarket parts are unfairly priced.(well with the exception of comptech

but that's just IMO) For example, look at what Dinan charges for E36 M3 parts.
http://www.dinanbmw.com/pdf/3%20series/M3%20E36%2096-99.pdf

Sure it'd be nice if it was cheaper but I don't think you'll get any sympathy from the civic crowd. Afterall, you do own an NSX! Also I think the vendors like dali/cybernation/sos/acr are doing great job keeping the costs down to moderate level.

 

[Number9]

Keep in mind that Comptech and Dinan serve a very useful function in the market too. Their's are among the few go-fast forced induction solutions that are CARB certified, which is an extremely important decision criteria here in CA.

 

[matteni]

Great quote Ken about the kids!

I completely agree with the statement about pricing being low - especially with Dali Racing. I can't understand how he sells the stuff so cheap some times and I KNOW the Basch Boost is a work of art and an incredible value at that price.

My point is that there seems to be room from both a performance and price standpoint for another forced induction product. You look at typical turbo setups from OEM. They usually produce pretty low numbers (Millenia S, Volks. 1.8T, MB Compressor, Saab, Volvo, etc.) So maybe there is room for a lower price 50-80 HP application that maintains more of the original equipment and minimizes much of the initial development costs. Ideally the system would have numerous upgrade paths and be relatively easy to install and maintain anywere outside of California.

Again - like 99% of all customers - I am completely ignorant about the business aspects of this - just wondering if there isn't a $3,000 simpler solution to this problem.

From the responses and discussion - I would guess no is the answer and NOS is the only solution in this price range.

Oh well - maybe if I was working harder and not spending so much time dreaming about this I could make the money to buy Mark's setup!

------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids

 

[sjs]

I think what Nick wants can be done, but the motivation doesn't exist. Even if you set recovery of R&D costs aside, it takes either large volume or large margin to make it interesting from a business perspective. Like picking stocks, they need to invest limited resources (time, talent, money) where the returns are largest. But that leaves room for people like Larry if part of his motivation goes beyond the business aspect of it. (Mark B as well, but given his launch I think the BBSC works regardless.)

Perhaps Larry will decide to fill that gap, and if not him then another enthusiast.

 

[Jimbo]

sjs,

Well, I guess it's possible someone could always develop a $3K-$4K kit for entirely altruistic reasons.

You know, not to make money...they would probably lose money, but at least it would be a nice thing to do for the community.

After all, now that the BBSC is roaring along there might be 15 people interested.

Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[DutchBlackNsx]

Interesting.........

I agree about the headers being to expensive.
Though NSX productionnumbers are small, the percentage of owners interested in them would be relatively large, opposed to other models/cars.
I did buy a set of cat bypass pipes, and with some (very small) metal/welding background myself, i'll say those where way to expensive. Very nice welding though, but i wouldn't pay for that. I can get a fully stainless steel exhaust made custom for my NSX, for about the same money as the cat bypass pipes costed me (thats with taxes and shipping).
If there was a 'cheap' option, made of iron, then thats what i would have bought.
All of this NSX-pricing starts at the Honda dealer, where i payed 450 USD for a 100 USD O2 sensor. Nothing special about the NSX sensor at all. And thats not the only part i came along....

Here in europe i know of only 1 comptech supercharger, no Gruppe M, nor any BaschBoosts (yet?).
Heard of 1 NOS equiped NSX.
Keep in mind that for us, all the parts come from the US, and a lot of taxes and cost will be added. The CT SC would be on my desk for approx. 15000 USD (read: on my desk).

I personnaly think there is a marktet for cheaper NSX horses. The NSX is getting cheaper and cheaper, and you will find the younger lads with some left over cash, buying NSX's, and trying to get more horses from under the hatch. 'Coz it only has 280 HP' (boy, do i hear that a lot...)

Also speaking to other NSX owners here in europe i know that there is a group of owners ineterested in forced induction, but still can't afford the BashBoost (which will be in price, what the CTSC costs you guys in the US).

So nitrous is the only really cheap option here, but nobody sells any longer a NSX specific kit (not one which 'fits an NSX as well').
RM used to make one, but the price for that was also over the top. Basicly a dry NOS system, with a nice CF piece for in the astray, nothing spectaculair.

Don't get me wrong, i enjoy every penny i spend on my NSX, and most items avaible through the vendors are worth the money.

Dutchy

 

[Jimbo]

Dutchy,

I have to chuckle sometimes when I hear people claim that they think there's a market for an NSX such-and-such or that a particular NSX item is SO expensive.

Please understand that I'm not making fun of your comment but I sometimes think that most people have no idea what it takes to develop, engineer, test, manufacture, sell and support a product.

I don't know how many total NSX's have been produced, perhaps somewhere around 10,000 units.

Out of that number a certain percentage have been wrecked and a certain sizable percentage have been sold to people who have never visited this website or have no idea or interest being a NSX enthusiast.

Those people who ARE enthusiasts, as I said before, where money is not a problem, and wanted more power, probably have already bought a Comptech or GruppeM. The remaining holdouts, whether on price or whatever, will probably be swayed by the price/performance of the BBSC.

Since we're already starting with a small number the remaining number of potential customers has to be real small.

When someone says that they know of a lot of people or they think there's a big market for such-and-such of a product, when the time comes, the number of people who actually step up to the plate to purchase is really small, in my opinion.

In any case I think we're talking about a dozen or several dozen people. Or maybe it's even fifty people. But considering the costs involved that have to be amortized over those people any NSX product project has to be priced accordingly.

To get any kind of decent economies of scale for a machined component you need to make them in quantities of hundreds. Of couse, the machinists who make the parts will want to get paid in full in 30 days. Who wants to foot the bill on a project where you have 200 units sitting on the shelf waiting for customers?

Vendors like Dali, Comptech and the others who manufacture and sell NSX parts should be commended.

It's easy to get upset over the so-called high prices and think you're getting ripped off, but I suspect if people knew what was involved financially, they wouldn't make the financial investment at all.

Again, I'm not getting on anyone's case, I'm just trying to inform people that it's not so easy to be a NSX equipment manufacturer.

Regards,
Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[DutchBlackNsx]

Jim,

The parts i found overpriced where parts which i think again are not supposed to be that price, such as the O2 sensors, or many other parts from the Honda dealer. Please note we do pay the price you guys pay in the US at the dealer double(!). Knowing that in the US you can get the exactly same part, for half the price will make you feel ripped-off.

I know about R&D a little bit, and do understand that there is a lot of time and cost involved in develping a product, not to mention putting it on the market. I have my own company.... we have R&D....
Please understand i am not talking about the supercharger from Comptech or others in that matter. Actually, i think MB is selling his unit for a low price, compared to all the research and cost which went into it.

I do still think that the cost of the MB-SC is quiete substantial to a lot of NSX owners, especially for us here in europe.
If 10000 USD stops people in the US from buying a CT supercharger, why would people in europe start buying the MB-SC when it's also 10000 USD (for us as a result of the taxes).

I am aware of the amount of owners who won't buy the product when it's there, but this thread started of with the desire for lowcost horses, and i think there are people looking for them, including me. I am not talking quantity's.
If the R&D for such a product would be to high, then there won't be such a product, simple.


Mich

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Jimbo:
I don't know how many total NSX's have been produced, perhaps somewhere around 10,000 units.

In the States, around 8,000 have been sold.

Worldwide, it's more than that, closer to 20,000. It would include around 7100 in Japan, 1450 in Europe/Middle East/Africa, around 800 in Canada, plus small numbers elsewhere (South America, non-Japan Asia, etc).