Evaporator Leaking - Dealers don't agree!

[SoCal-NSX]

My 94 was doing the dreaded - only cold out of some vents thing as shown on the FAQ's thing - so I took it to Mission Viejo Acura to have coolant added. They discharged it and tested it and said that the evaporator has a leak and need $1,800 to replace it.

Niguel motors says - get a can of stop leak from Kragen and put it in. He's done 3 of them and he'll even do it for me. He also said that once you pull the dash, it always squeaks.

AutoWave says - not sure that's a good idea since it might plug up other valves. Says no squeaking.

Mission Viejo Acura says - the product doesn't even exist. "Sure you're not talking about a radiator?" Ugh. Says no squeeking.

Help!!!
Thoughts, here?
Experience?

I don't mind spending the money if that's the right solution.

Thank you for the help!
Dave

 

[nis350]

if you really have a leak, then there will be no cold air out of any vents since all the freon will eventually leak out.

those stop leaks quick fix may work for very minor leaks on rubber seals. it basically expand the rubber seals, but you have a crack on the metal part. it won't work.

 

[Hiroshima]

Had my evap replaced. The price you quoted sounds perhaps a smidge too high. My dash does not squeak. It also gives you an oportunity to replace your (likely) cracked pastic piece that rides along the front windshield. However when you find out how much it is (I seem to recall it being $250) you may tell them to put the broken one back (I did) :wink:

To your question. The prev poster is right, broken evap, that fix-it-goop probably will not work. Plus, I would be scared it would kill the compressor somehow which, on its own, costs over $1000.

Good luck, I have been there and I could think of a 1000 more fun things to spend my money on, but it had to be done.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

The stop leak stuff does exist. It is a temporary fix and will work for a while, then once it gives out you are screwed. The entire system will be contaminated. Also you will ruin someone's recharging system if they try to evac it later to recharge it.

The most experienced person in regard to this is MarkB. Give him a call. Considering Pheonix is his location, I have little doubt he is the MOST experienced at NSX A/C stuff.

He will most likely comment on this thread.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[Briank]

My 94 was doing the dreaded - only cold out of some vents thing as shown on the FAQ's thing - so I took it to Mission Viejo Acura to have coolant added. They discharged it and tested it and said that the evaporator has a leak and need $1,800 to replace it.

$1800 is what AOB quoted me last summer to do the Evap replacement with the evac and recharge fee waived.

Niguel motors says - get a can of stop leak from Kragen and put it in. He's done 3 of them and he'll even do it for me. He also said that once you pull the dash, it always squeaks.

Normally stop leak is a no no in A/C but if Niguel say's it will work you can try but from what I have read here in prime it's not a good idea. My dash had a squeak b4 and the same squeak after replacement.

AutoWave says - not sure that's a good idea since it might plug up other valves. Says no squeaking.

Mission Viejo Acura says - the product doesn't even exist. "Sure you're not talking about a radiator?" Ugh. Says no squeaking.

Help!!!
Thoughts, here?
Experience?

I don't mind spending the money if that's the right solution.

Thank you for the help!
Dave

I would recommend having the dealer replace the evaporator, stay cool and enjoy driving your NSX. :smile:

 

[NSXTech]

You're all correct. Using stop leak is about the most obcene repair you can do to an a/c sytem. It was designed for systems that use swash plate compressors and don't have expansion valves (VIR or POA instead).
All NSX' use recip type compressors and variable orifice exp valves both of which will suffer from the goop. They sell the stuff based on the fact that it is an aerobic (loosely translated- 'with air') sealer which means it only hardens in the presance of air, at the point of leak.
If the evap is leaking, it needs replaced, period. And the goop is a bad idea in ANY car, IMO, period.

As to the price, current retail for the core, which comes with an expansion valve, is 553. The Mitchell Flat Rate (most common guide in use) suggests 7.1 hours plus .9 for evac and chg. If your tech charges 80./hr it should cost about 1200. plus juice. If a tech SAYS this or any job won't be perfect when its done, you should be hearing, "I don't really care how well the job comes out because it is too time consuming and probabally dificult and I'm warning you of this now so don't bitch about my shoddy work later".

The 411 I really need to know is, how was it diagnosed? Dye alone does not a perfect diagnosis make. Dye can point to an evap three ways, and only one is correct.
1- Black light exam of all a/c fittings shows no leak despite loss of gas, ergo it must be the evap
2- Enough dye and gas has been lost that it shows as a tint (with black light of course) around the opening of the evap drain tube. You know where the drain tube is- its the coolant leak people complain about every time they use their a/c for the first time evry season :wink:
3- You remove the blower motor (20 min job) and actually examine the evap and expansion valve and the seals between them and learn where the leak is.

I'm not trying to give you any false hope, but it happens all the time. Happened Monday in my shop. KK dropped off his 92 which he was told by an a/c expert needed an evap. Confirmed, guarrenteed diagnosis. Personally, I never make repairs on anybodies diagnosis but my own. We keep evaps in stock anyway, so I pulled the blower motor and got out the black light and guess what. The spray pattern of dye coming from the expansion valve, and getting ON the evap could not have been any more obvious. Just to be sure, I pulled 28 inches of vac in the sytem and watched (well, built a shortie tranny) how much it lost in three hours. Then I replaced the valve and seals
and repeated the leak test. Before- 6" vac lost in three hours. After- no loss in 20 hours. Car fixed, customer cost <200.

PM if you need more scoop.
HTH,
MB

 

[GreenBean]

About 4-years ago in the delaer, a man came in with a 91 with @20,000 miles on it and the evap was leaking. We quoted the price and he laughed and just asked us to rmeove and he came and got it, he was an aluminum welder and he found the hole and repaired it himself and then we installed it...has worked fine since.

just my .02 :biggrin:

 

[SoCal-NSX]

VERY helpful guys. I'll get the exact diagnosis and post it.
Dave

 

[SoCal-NSX]

Got the 411 on how they diagnosed:
- did the dye
- looked up there with a mirror
- saw the leak from the evaporator

Any chance of misdiagnose?
Dave

 

[NSXTech]

The question is still, did he pull the blower motor or not. I have heard the mirror story many times. Its an insult. Because the evap is behind the dash, you are meant beliieve he saw it with a mirror. If he saw a leak behind the dash with a mirror, your glove box needs its freon recharged.

On the other hand, if he pulled the blower motor, and had a mirror the size of a dime, he may have looked at the evap. But when you pull the blower motor to do a proper inspection, you don't need a mirror because its right in your face. The condensate drips off of every square mm of core surface and causes the dye to be visible around the edges no matter where it leaks in or on the actual core surface. The expansion valve is more or less centered on the forward facing side of the evap which faces the blower opening, so if it leaks, it is very obvious.

If I sound cynical, its only because this stuff is so easy and cut and dry and anybody who tries to sell a/c stop stop leak rather than do a proper diagnosis
is not high on my list of refferals.

I'd spend 25. (http://store.autotoolexpress.com/qumaxprflled.html) and check myself. You can make sure the system even has dye in it by illuminating the sight glass with the a/c running, even low, and see the dye there. Also, removing the plastic service caps and checking the fill valves-
they will show intense dye color where the dye was introduced.

Hope that isnt too much information.
MB

 

[ncdogdoc]

........is an anaerobic (loosely translated- 'with air') sealer which means it only hardens in the presance of air, at the point of leak..........MB

Mark, just picking nits but anaerobic means without air, aerobic means with air. Used a lot in microbiology

 

[SoCal-NSX]

Talked to Tim the 1 NSX Mechanic at Acura of Mission Viejo and he said that he did NOT pull the blower motor and that it could only be a lead from the evaporator because it's the only thing in there that could leak!

So what all you guys ARE agreeing on is I should take it to another shop I trust like AutoWave of HB and take my chances, yes?

Thanks SO much for everyone's help! I appreciate all you expertise.
Dave

 

[Norm]

I paid $1139.19 to have the coil replaced, total cost. (Rates are a little cheaper in Oklahoma)

Some people think that to keep replacing the "coolant" (depending on the size of the leak) is a cheap alternative to repair, but I didn't like the musty smell that developed.

Thanks to a very competent technician (and foam tape) my car has fewer squeaks than before.

If you go forward with the repair I would caution you not to "watch". It is freightening to see the dash completely out of the car.

 

[NSXTech]

It is also illegal to put R12 in a car with a known leak

On the subject of musty smells, it is important to manually select fresh air before turning off the car during the summer. If it is very hot and climate control is on full auto, it will likely be in the recirc mode and to turn the car off in this mode is to close the evap box off (except for small drain) with at least some water in it. Once mold or mildew develops, it will always smell untill you kill the offending spores. (go ahead ncdoc, make my day)

MB

 

[SoCal-NSX]

Really? I have that musty smell. How can I kill the mold? It's been there since I bought it used. Good info on the recirc info.

Dave

 

[SoCal-NSX]

Tim said they used a leak-sniffer-detector-thingy that points to the evaporator. Another acura dealer is backing that story.

We buying this yet?
Dave

 

[Dave Hardy]

Really? I have that musty smell. How can I kill the mold? It's been there since I bought it used. Good info on the recirc info.

Dave

Spray lysol in the intake vents. That will kill the mold. Sometimes it takes multiple treatments if it is bad. Also, find the drain and make sure that it is draining and that water isn't accumulating.

Why not have them perform the simple diagnostic that Mark prescribed, rather than continuing to diagnose it another way. It sounds like removing those parts is the first step in a repair anyway, so there's no reason not to do a proper diagnosis.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

So-Cal- NSX,

You now have two facilities, giving you the same incompetent BS story. If there is a possibility that there can be multiple leaks inside the evaporator housing, if you do not open the thing up how do you know? At this point MarkB has taken the mystery out of it for all of us.

I referenced MarkB for a good reason, so you would not get any BS, case closed. Have someone take the blower housing off and look in there, it is very simple. Has anyone charged you for the inspection so far? If not, good, since you would have paid for nothing, and if so, tell them to do the proper inspection you paid for, and open up the damn blower housing.

Keep in mind it actually could be the evaporator, but if not, you will save a significant amount of money.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[SoCal-NSX]

Larry, I agree. They did charge me 132.00 and I'm going to have them start with the blower housing and figure it out from there.

I'll post a final and let you guys know what happened.

Dave

 

[Joe Gliksman]

NSX Tech--where were you when I needed you? I am now on my 5th evaporator. The good news is the first 3 replacements were under warranty. I never did believe all these evaps were going bad--now after reading your post, I am thinking the problem maybe have been elsewhere, but they did not know how to diagnose. Since that time, I've had problems with my blower which I fixed myself, and it is so easy to remove, I can't imagine why anyone would try using a mirror to diagnose and not pull the blower!

Thanks for the great information.

 

[NSXTech]

NSX Tech--where were you when I needed you?

right here.

 

[SoCal-NSX]

For better or for worse....
The bill was about 1900 bucks which includes:
- new evap sub assembly
- receiver
- water outlet
- water inlet
- all the labor

While they were in there, I had them replace the aspirator fan and now my ambient cockpit noise is totally gone! Bonus.

I had them show me the evap and it had 3 places the dye had come through including 2 on the in/out hoses and 1 BIG one in the middle of the evap. I think they were right on. Anyone want to burst my bubble for the greater good?


Took about 2 days.
No squeeks
I'm happy-happy.

Thanks for ALL your help. You guys rock.
Dave

 

[NSXTech]

For better or for worse....
The bill was about 1900 bucks which includes:
- new evap sub assembly
- receiver
- water outlet
- water inlet
- all the labor

Anyone want to burst my bubble for the greater good?
Dave

Not me

 

[fkong777]

so cal... so where did you take the car after all?

I had niguel motor convert my system to R132 and AC worked about 3 weeks. So I have some major leak in the system too.

I wish NSXtech was in so cal. I hate to get a quote for $1900 if it is a simple fix.

 

[SoCal-NSX]

I went to Mission Viejo Acura. Call them, ask for Miguel and tell him to read about it on NSX Prime and that Dave with the 94 Green sent you. They do a lot of NSX's. They'll take care of you. Autowave couldn't get me in for 2 weeks, they're too far away for me from convenience and they don't have a loaner car program. They were my first choice if all things we equal.

If I have any complaint against them (as NSXTech figured out) it would be that they seem to 'go by the book' more often than not where as Autwave takes a more creative approach.

Dave