I mean wtf are these people doing? Another $410 billion for nothing?

[Elistan]

Regarding what is being done, and what some thing should be done about the economic situation, set aside 30 minutes of your time and listen to this NPR interview of Simon Johnson, formerly of the IMF.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101360253

He discusses actions being taken by the US that he does and does not like and the parallels to Japan's "lost decade," and his (and the IMF's) thoughts on what should be done.

 

[Biscuit]

Can I come to the party as well? Maybe we can hunt for our food, I have a couple AR's. How's the hunting out there? I've never done it, there's always a first time.

I live in tennesse, theres all kinds of animals to kill and eat around here. I enjoy a tasty cow myself.

 

[Biscuit]

Just so you guys understand, he's not going to spend $3.5Trillion in one bill... its over the course of a 4-8 year term. No one can manage spending that much money at once... There has to be over sight.

I think the stimulus itself has some promise. Its going to create 3.5 Million new jobs (which is already started to give ppl jobs in Maryland)

Its going to take time. You can't just sit there and not spend any money! That's part of the problem no one is spending (or can spend) and it just trickles down and gets worse as time goes on. Most of this bad economy is all psychological. Money isn't real... the economy is based on debt... the one thing I don't agree with that Obama is doing is creating this "bank" essentially to lend out money to people and businesses... We dont need more debt, we need less! This is what got us here in the first place!

If everyone paid off all their loans at once, the banks would go out of business. Banks don't make $ if you pay off your car / house all at once. They make tons of $$$$$$ on interest.... anyways I'm sure I'm going to be flamed as usual *flame suit on!* :wink:

Uhh theres alot wrong with this post but ill pick just one. Obama said his plan will create or "save" 3.5 mil jobs. Think about that for a minute. How do you count a saved job? Especially since the unemployment rate is rising everyday. So does that mean that if everybody loses there jobs except 3.5mil people does tthat mean his plan worked? Fyi hes not counting layoffs as jobs lost.
Its just more bs doubletalk from the great oriator.

 

[Ski_Banker]

Uhh theres alot wrong with this post but ill pick just one. Obama said his plan will create or "save" 3.5 mil jobs. Think about that for a minute. How do you count a saved job? Especially since the unemployment rate is rising everyday. So does that mean that if everybody loses there jobs except 3.5mil people does tthat mean his plan worked? Fyi hes not counting layoffs as jobs lost.
Its just more bs doubletalk from the great oriator.

There are certainly ways to try to track "saved" jobs with a rough level of accuracy, but you're 100% correct in that this will just be a BS talking point in 2010 and 2012. It will go something like this:

Fox News: The facts clearly prove the stimulus plan only "saved" 500k jobs.

MSNBC: Our unbiased reports clearly show 9 million jobs were saved.

Pres. Obama: The media doesn't have access to the same level of information that we do, and our reports show we actually "saved" 12 million jobs.

Opponent: No it doesn't.

Pres. Obama: Yes it does.

Opponent: No it doesn't.

The public: Obama is probably right. I can just feel it. Good work.

 

[NSX-Stalker]

I say he will save ONE BILLION JOBS!

 

[Elistan]

Uhh theres alot wrong with this post but ill pick just one. Obama said his plan will create or "save" 3.5 mil jobs. Think about that for a minute. How do you count a saved job? Especially since the unemployment rate is rising everyday. So does that mean that if everybody loses there jobs except 3.5mil people does tthat mean his plan worked? Fyi hes not counting layoffs as jobs lost.
Its just more bs doubletalk from the great oriator.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems pretty straight forward to me. Estimate the total number of jobs lost by doing nothing. Estimate the total number of jobs lost by implementing the stimulus bill (supposedly a number 3.5 million less than the first.) Subtract the latter from the former, and you have the predicted number of "saved" jobs. The verbiage, to me, isn't meant to imply the stimulus package will prevent all lost jobs. Example - suppose the Administration estimates that another 7 million jobs will be lost over the next four years if they do nothing, leading to about a 12.2% unemployment rate. Further suppose the Administration calculates that with the stimulus package, the number of lost jobs would be reduced to 3.5 million (9.9% unemployment,) thereby "saving" 3.5 million jobs that would otherwise be lost.

Whether the estimations are correct or not, who knows. But I suspect the simple subtraction calculation above is the source of the number.

(It's worth nothing that this begs the question about whether saving that amount of jobs at the expense of the increase in spending and therefore debt is better for the economy, or if simply letting those jobs go away and spend nothing is better. YMMV.)

 

[Elistan]

Ignoring anybody's future plans here's the BLS report from Feb 09, if you want to read some real numbers about the current state of employment.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

4.1 million jobs lost over the past 12 months. Scary.

 

[Carguy!]

3.5 Million jobs saved is a joke, everyone knows that there is no way to accurately estimate whether or not that ever happened.

With the 780,000,000,000 stimulus package then could give 15.6 million people a job earning over 50K per year!!! They could pretty much end unemployment in the U.S. with just this stimulus bill!

Of course they would be much better off giving 3.12 million people 250K per year so then they would get 39% back right off the top!

This kind of insanity will drive this country into the ground! Luckily for me and my family I don't owe anyone anything, have a lot of guns, have money in the bank, have an income source that is generated worldwide.

Good Luck to everyone! I am optimistic that there are enough people with common sense to eventually stop this lunacy!

 

[JonBoy]

3.5 Million jobs saved is a joke, everyone knows that there is no way to accurately estimate whether or not that ever happened.

With the 780,000,000,000 stimulus package then could give 15.6 million people a job earning over 50K per year!!! They could pretty much end unemployment in the U.S. with just this stimulus bill!

Of course they would be much better off giving 3.12 million people 250K per year so then they would get 39% back right off the top!

This kind of insanity will drive this country into the ground! Luckily for me and my family I don't owe anyone anything, have a lot of guns, have money in the bank, have an income source that is generated worldwide.

Good Luck to everyone! I am optimistic that there are enough people with common sense to eventually stop this lunacy!

Not to rain on your parade but let's be clear. They could create 15.6 million jobs at $50K per year for ONE YEAR with that stimulus amount. That wouldn't settle anything, really, since you'd just have them all laid off after that time.

If they created 3.5 million jobs at $50K per year, the jobs would last 4.5 years before the money "ran out". Of course, that ignores taxes they'd recollect, so round it to five years and you have a more realistic (and pertinent) statistic. Five years of "guaranteed work" at $50K a year would be significant!

 

[PhiAlpha44]

Pure redistribution of wealth. I went to school for 10 years at night while working full time as a police supervisor to earn my AA, BS, MPA and JD. By the way, I paid for my education 100% with my income as I also supported my family-no loans.

Now, my wife and I make good money-we worked hard to be able to earn what we earn. We have 1 credit card and pay it in full every month. If we don't have the $ we don't buy it-plain and simple.

Now we are having to give our hard earned $ to every piece of crap, lazy, uneducated, unskilled, mother fXXXXX in the United States. God forbid they earn their own way and buy their own home-WHAT? Come on now, we could never expect these people to help themselves. It is so much easier to stay in bed, use drugs, alcohol and collect money from every branch of government we ever heard of and some we probably have not heard of.

So the banks were trying to "help" these people out by "qualifying" them for loans they could not qualify for and never should have received. Then of course they can't make their payments, they default and go into foreclosure. So they are actually financially worse off then before they bought a home. I say the mortgage brokers, et al responsible for this mess should have to give up all of their possessions to help pay this mess off.

Oh and are these the same people going out committing all of the crimes?

Did I mention I came from a working class family and went to public schools? YEAH- F them all.

Sorry- just tired of having everyone taking money out of my wallet.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[BD]

i think there is a lot of truth to the points you raise.

i voted for obama (not a hard supporter but i felt he was the more palatable of the two final choices) and i'm right here watching folks chew their legs off while foaming at the mouth. (no criticism intended, just an observation.) The stock market dropped how much since he got elected? Every time he opens his mouth, oops, there is another 400 points drop. In fact, most of the value drop is not even related to the source of this recession. Health care, addition banking issues (investors are getting out because of Government take over), etc. If you're still blaming Bush for this so call Inheritance, you're an idiot. The writing is one the wall.

from where i sit, i see a newly elected president who inherited the biggest shit-storm momentum since the depression. who created the storm? lots of folks from all sorts of backgrounds with many personal / professional / political goals: greed top among them. and now all / many / most americans (and others around the planet) will have to suffer huge consequences.

like most here, i believe it's going to get much, much worse before it gets better. like you, i worry about my children's / grandchildren's future more than ever before... heck, with the upheaval in the market(s) stock and housing, i'm beginning to review my retirement plans, too. i think we were very much headed into this crater regardless of who won the election and to some extent (at least for the initial year or two post-election), the crater would be pretty much the same as it is now. (in case anybody's wondering, i don't like the idea of paying for those who re-fied their inflated-value homes, took the money and walked... i don't like it at all. none of my friends / acquaintances fall in that segment, btw - we're all pretty conservative.)

so i'll side with (and paraphrase) a post steve made last week or the week before (can't remember, sorry): the election's over, let's get back to work.
(and i'll add as i have on several occasions: buckle your seat belts, it's going to get very, very bumpy and i believe we'll all need all of the positive support we can muster.)

seriously.

thx for letting me raise my hand and chime in

Sorry bro, if you think Obama inherit the biggest S..T storm since the depression, think again. Most of the issues prior to the election were fabrications - In terms of severity. Obama used people like you, sold his empty promises and get him elected. EVERY THING he have done so far, was predicted by the Conservative circle - AND more.

We are going through a serious changes, and some of them will be irreversible if Obama succeed.

One thing I have to give you credit for, you're one of the few Obama supporter still talking. Most of them disappeared.

The last thing I'm always curios about, what is this so called "Bush Haters?"

I still don't get it.

Under Bush, we weathered a huge stock market crash, 911, all which could have been prevented by a Democratic President. And what did Bush said? NOTHING!!! BECAUSE WHEN YOU ASK FOR THE JOB, YOU CANNOT BLAME THE GUY BEFORE YOU for the mess. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ACT AS A LEADER AND SOLVE THE GODDAMN PROBLEMS, INSTEAD OF POINTING YOUR FINGERS BACKWARDS AND LOOK LIKE AN COMPLETE MORON.

BTW bush was elected TWICE by the people. I still remember my big brother lost over $1.2 million value in tech stock in 1999/2000, and lost even more in 2001 due to 911, by end of 2002, every mofo were driving a AMG55 MB, 360, and Gallardo down PCH. I'm curious who was complaining?

Obama will be one of the worse president EVER, next to Jimmy Carter.

 

[queenlives]

Sorry bro, if you think Obama inherit the biggest S..T storm since the depression, think again. Most of the issues prior to the election were fabrications - In terms of severity. Obama used people like you, sold his empty promises and get him elected. EVERY THING he have done so far, was predicted by the Conservative circle - AND more.

We are going through a serious changes, and some of them will be irreversible if Obama succeed.

One thing I have to give you credit for, you're one of the few Obama supporter still talking. Most of them disappeared.

The last thing I'm always curios about, what is this so called "Bush Haters?"

I still don't get it.

Under Bush, we weathered a huge stock market crash, 911, and was elected TWICE by the people. I still remember my brother lost over $1.2 million value in tech stock in 1999/2000, and lost even more in 2001 due to 911, by end of 2002, even mofo were driving a AMG MB, 360, Gallardo down PCH.

Obama will be one of the worse president EVER, next to Jimmy Carter.

wow.

 

[enkrypt3d]

Sorry bro, if you think Obama inherit the biggest S..T storm since the depression, think again. Most of the issues prior to the election were fabrications - In terms of severity. Obama used people like you, sold his empty promises and get him elected. EVERY THING he have done so far, was predicted by the Conservative circle - AND more.

We are going through a serious changes, and some of them will be irreversible if Obama succeed.

One thing I have to give you credit for, you're one of the few Obama supporter still talking. Most of them disappeared.

The last thing I'm always curios about, what is this so called "Bush Haters?"

I still don't get it.

Under Bush, we weathered a huge stock market crash, 911, all which could have been prevented by a Democratic President. And what did Bush said? NOTHING!!! BECAUSE WHEN YOU ASK FOR THE JOB, YOU CANNOT BLAME THE GUY BEFORE YOU for the mess. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ACT AS A LEADER AND SOLVE THE GODDAMN PROBLEMS, INSTEAD OF POINTING YOUR FINGERS BACKWARDS AND LOOK LIKE AN COMPLETE MORON.

BTW bush was elected TWICE by the people. I still remember my big brother lost over $1.2 million value in tech stock in 1999/2000, and lost even more in 2001 due to 911, by end of 2002, every mofo were driving a AMG55 MB, 360, and Gallardo down PCH. I'm curious who was complaining?

Obama will be one of the worse president EVER, next to Jimmy Carter.

Are you talking out your ass again? Dude Obama has only been in office for less than 2 months and you are rating him as the worst president ever? I think he is the SMARTEST president ever. He is doing the things that are needed to get us out of the hole Bush dug us... period. You can talk semantics all day long but its true. I'm not disappointed at all. Obama has only mentioned bush during the election. I have not heard him say much about Bush since he took office. Give the guy a chance. I guess there will always be people who is never happy. I believe I remember you bitching about Bush too...when will it end? Seriously.

The "Conservative Circle" consists of Fox news and Rush Limfuck... who cares what they say? I now know what you listen to every day. Seriously weak. :smile:

 

[Biscuit]

Are you talking out your ass again? Dude Obama has only been in office for less than 2 months and you are rating him as the worst president ever? I think he is the SMARTEST president ever. He is doing the things that are needed to get us out of the hole Bush dug us... period. You can talk semantics all day long but its true. I'm not disappointed at all. Obama has only mentioned bush during the election. I have not heard him say much about Bush since he took office. Give the guy a chance. I guess there will always be people who is never happy. I believe I remember you bitching about Bush too...when will it end? Seriously.

The "Conservative Circle" consists of Fox news and Rush Limfuck... who cares what they say? I now know what you listen to every day. Seriously weak. :smile:

My god, Obama supporters are so blind to the documented facts of how this all came about. This all sarted with the colaspe of tthe housing market which was a direct result of carter and Clinton forcing loan companys to lend to less than worthy applicants all under the guise of the equal housing act. fanny Mae and freddie Mack was buying up all these crap loans that where defaulting until 27 different times republicans under bush and mccain tried to enforce more regulation of the two companys and warned of an emnit colapse. 27 different times democrats under the phenominal leadership of Nancy Pelosi Barney Frank (who was caught with a homosexual brothel going on in his home complete witth valet parking)rejected those claims of eminite collapse saying that the two companys where doing great under the leadership of Franklin Rains (even though several reports both enternally and externally said otherwise.)
Well now we know what happened to those two companys as Rains reportedly received close to 9 million dollars in pay and bonuses...9 million.
Now we have frank and pelosi in charge of fixing the problem while they couldnt even identify that there was one in the first place. Your messiah, obama put these people in charge. Now, from my view he is either a flaming idiot or highly intelligent as you say, but horribly horribly corrupt.

here ya go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxMInSfanqg
Yeah these terribly enlightned people are running this country now.

 

[tosugrad]

Hey Barney Franks sexuality has NOTHING to do with this!!

He is a loser, plain and simple.

 

[enkrypt3d]

My god, Obama supporters are so blind to the documented facts of how this all came about. This all sarted with the colaspe of tthe housing market which was a direct result of carter and Clinton forcing loan companys to lend to less than worthy applicants all under the guise of the equal housing act. fanny Mae and freddie Mack was buying up all these crap loans that where defaulting until 27 different times republicans under bush and mccain tried to enforce more regulation of the two companys and warned of an emnit colapse. 27 different times democrats under the phenominal leadership of Nancy Pelosi Barney Frank (who was caught with a homosexual brothel going on in his home complete witth valet parking)rejected those claims of eminite collapse saying that the two companys where doing great under the leadership of Franklin Rains (even though several reports both enternally and externally said otherwise.)
Well now we know what happened to those two companys as Rains reportedly received close to 9 million dollars in pay and bonuses...9 million.
Now we have frank and pelosi in charge of fixing the problem while they couldnt even identify that there was one in the first place. Your messiah, obama put these people in charge. Now, from my view he is either a flaming idiot or highly intelligent as you say, but horribly horribly corrupt.

here ya go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxMInSfanqg
Yeah these terribly enlightned people are running this country now.

I'm not saying its all bush's fault the deregulation of banks was a bad move on Clinton's / Carters part for sure... and no I'd rather not be lumped in with "Obama supporters" i dont agree with everything he does. Nor am I a staunch democrat...

I am well aware of the *WHY* we are here... pointing fingers is going to do nothing. Anyways participating in discussions like this are rarely productive... /unsubscribe...

 

[Biscuit]

I'm not saying its all bush's fault the deregulation of banks was a bad move on Clinton's / Carters part for sure... and no I'd rather not be lumped in with "Obama supporters" i dont agree with everything he does. Nor am I a staunch democrat...

I am well aware of the *WHY* we are here... pointing fingers is going to do nothing. Anyways participating in discussions like this are rarely productive... /unsubscribe...

Well alot of people seem to think it was Bushs fault until they are presented with the facts that our horribly one sided media cannot seem to bring out themselves.
I think pointing fingers is perfectly acceptable. If we can identify those who caused the problem maybe we can prevent it from happening again.

 

[1SICKLEX]

Sorry bro, if you think Obama inherit the biggest S..T storm since the depression, think again. Most of the issues prior to the election were fabrications - In terms of severity. Obama used people like you, sold his empty promises and get him elected. EVERY THING he have done so far, was predicted by the Conservative circle - AND more.

We are going through a serious changes, and some of them will be irreversible if Obama succeed.

One thing I have to give you credit for, you're one of the few Obama supporter still talking. Most of them disappeared.

The last thing I'm always curios about, what is this so called "Bush Haters?"

I still don't get it.

Under Bush, we weathered a huge stock market crash, 911, all which could have been prevented by a Democratic President. And what did Bush said? NOTHING!!! BECAUSE WHEN YOU ASK FOR THE JOB, YOU CANNOT BLAME THE GUY BEFORE YOU for the mess. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ACT AS A LEADER AND SOLVE THE GODDAMN PROBLEMS, INSTEAD OF POINTING YOUR FINGERS BACKWARDS AND LOOK LIKE AN COMPLETE MORON.

BTW bush was elected TWICE by the people. I still remember my big brother lost over $1.2 million value in tech stock in 1999/2000, and lost even more in 2001 due to 911, by end of 2002, every mofo were driving a AMG55 MB, 360, and Gallardo down PCH. I'm curious who was complaining?

Obama will be one of the worse president EVER, next to Jimmy Carter.

Looking at spending under Bush, it was far from Conservative. The party is not the same as it once was.

Bush WAS NOT elected by the people the first time. He lost the popular vote, won the electoral one after the Supreme Court ruling that he did win. He also barely won the 2nd term. The country has been split for sometime.

Obama did win with more of the popular vote but it seems to me he was the best of a VERY BAD CROP of candidates from ALL SIDES (Ron Paul anyone??). Add a very bad crop of elected officials and it continues to be a mess.

The bottom line is we shouldn't be in this mess in the first place b/c the same people that got us here are mostly the same ones trying to solve it.

There is no prior precedent to all this. People can TRY to compare it to previous eras but its not nearly as much money, as complicated and as global.

(buckles in seat belt and puts on helmet)

 

[NSX-Stalker]

I'm beginning to think Obama truly doesn't care about trying to fix the problems with the economy. Either that or he's a complete idiot, and I don't believe he's that dumb. I think he's using the crisis to cram through his agenda which will have a net effect of zero in helping anything right now.

Worse than Carter? Worst president ever? Yeah, I think he's going to pull it off.

 

[tosugrad]

I'm beginning to think Obama truly doesn't care about trying to fix the problems with the economy. Either that or he's a complete idiot, and I don't believe he's that dumb. I think he's using the crisis to cram through his agenda which will have a net effect of zero in helping anything right now.

My father in law spent considerable time working with Obama (one on one) when he was in IL politics. He said the exact same thing. Truly scary.

 

[jcjcf1]

The over-extension of credit and debt, both private and public, has occured under both Republican and Democrat administrations.

But the simple fact at this point is that we cannot solve a problem caused by too much credit and debt by trying to re-inflate the economy with additional credit and debt. This may lead to a temporary increase in GDP and employment, but it is not sustainable.

The economy (and housing prices and employment etc.) will eventually find a level at which modest growth is sustainable. The government bailouts are simply spreading the pain over a longer period of time, but the end result will leave us with a massive amout of additional debt which will eventually have to be defaulted or monetized(print enough money and inflation will eventually sustain the debt level) through Federal Reserve purchases of Treasury debt.

Meanwhile, future generations can look forward to a reduced standard of living.

 

[tosugrad]

I equate the current situation to the long standing problems with the Big 3 Automakers. The government has given them BILLIONS and BILLIONS since the 70s. What has it done? In times of general prosperity they have done well but the root problems were never fixed and they eventually need more.

We must let market conditions take over. Thats what a capitalist society does.

Please apply this to the rest of the companies/markets as well.

 

[yojack1]

I equate the current situation to the long standing problems with the Big 3 Automakers. The government has given them BILLIONS and BILLIONS since the 70s. What has it done? In times of general prosperity they have done well but the root problems were never fixed and they eventually need more.

We must let market conditions take over. Thats what a capitalist society does.

Please apply this to the rest of the companies/markets as well.

You hit the nail on the head!

The way I see it, America hates the thought of losing in anything, in any way, in any shape or form.
It's totally unamerican to not be on top. We can't handle losing, we don't know how to deal with it, we're not used to it and quite frankly it's rather embarrising, us being the (self proclaimed) GREATEST COUNTRY ON EARTH.

How we deal with the challenges that lay ahead will ultimately determine how great or how weak we are. Right about now we ain't acting like Joe Montana leading his team down the field with the winning touchdown. It's more like Terrell Owens whining on the sidelines. How did that work out?

IMO until we can accept the fact that we cannot artificially win and have continuous prosperity all of the time, we will have a hard time living up to our own expectations.

Right now everybody is to blame for this mess, and it's going to take everybody working together to get us out of it.


















I wouldn't hold your breath however!



















This serious shit sucks!

 

[queenlives]

The way I see it, America hates the thought of losing in anything, in any way, in any shape or form.

this is not a uniquely american perspective.

few - if any - will willingly relinquish a higher standard of living, readily available food, water and shelter.

 

[yojack1]

this is not a uniquely american perspective.

few - if any - will willingly relinquish a higher standard of living, readily available food, water and shelter.

You mean like the UAWorkers in Detroit and professional athletes? :wink: