Let's talk electric car

[SFNSXguy]

Let's talk electric car...

Eventually an electric car will be what I want... but it has to be engineered as a proper electric car -- not a regular car with its engine removed and an electric motor dropped in it's place.

A proper "electric car" will have a motor in each wheel. Don't know why a big company (Honda) is not doing this (they probably are in secret). A single platform can be built, then it can be a coupe, sedan, truck, sports car... even a race car depending on what body is put on the platform.

Here's one that shows promise (though I'd prefer a "cab forward" design):
http://www.lightningcarcompany.co.uk/

One last problem to be solved: the sound -- needs to make a cool noise.

The battery is the major technological problem yet to be invented.

How you you feel about an electric (sports) car?

 

[Mac Attack]

Personally, I think the electric cars already make a cool noise from the high frequency inverter to the whir from the motors.

I love driving the Prius in electric vehicle mode because while near silent, it does still emit a cool whir that makes peoples heads turn to see what it is. The instantaneous torque from a standstill is fun too (at least up until 25MPH).

Ever since my freshman year when I was involved with our schools solar challenge car, I've been a big fan of electric vehicles. However, 99% of all the converted vehicles I've seen are hack jobs at best with little to no thought on crash safety.

MY $0.02.

Dave

 

[flaminio]

Biggest problem with an all-electric car is that I can't drive it to L.A.

They either need to be able to be fully charged in five minutes (about the time it takes to fill up a gas tank), or be able to run all day on a single charge.

I've heard of plans to build induction strips down all of the interstates -- this seems like a good technology to investigate. As long as you're on the freeway, you'd be losing no battery power (or even charging it as you go).

Until then, the medium term future solution is Plug-in Hybrids. For the 90% of driving around town and to and from work, you'd run on full electric. But if you need to take a road trip, or if your battery winds down far from home, you still have the gasoline engine. Best of both worlds, and does not require any added infrastruction.

For a sports car, tho' -- nah. But I would buy a PHEV Odyssey today.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Until then, the medium term future solution is Plug-in Hybrids. For the 90% of driving around town and to and from work, you'd run on full electric. But if you need to take a road trip, or if your battery winds down far from home, you still have the gasoline engine. Best of both worlds

Or you can say it is the WORST of both worlds. First of all, you have all the extra weight an engine adds to an already heavy battery-laden car. Second, the engine takes up precious space in a car already having to store battery packs. Third, you are still stuck with all the maintenance issues that an all-electric vehicle does away with... oil, gas, belts, things that break.

The bigger issue is one of marketing. EV's have to overcome people's fear of running out of power and being stranded some place... when the likelyhood of such a scenario is extremely low. Tesla has decided to concentrate on range and they are the leaders at close to 300 miles/charge as opposed to plug-in hybrids that are all under 100. They have their engineering act together which is one reason a giant like Toyota is investing in them.

Honestly, as much as I love cars, big engines, racing, V10's and V12's; from a technical standpoint an internal combustion engine is a piece of junk. It has a thermal efficiency of around 50%. After this many years, we are at a whopping 50%. An electric motor, with hundreds fewer parts and much less maintenance, is closer to 90%.

In a hybrid you are using shitty technology to try to solve a range problem because of infrastructure. That effort needs to go into better infrastructure IMO, and not into maximizing "hybrid" development.

Last, as much as I like EV technology, my favorite by car is the Hydrogen Fuel Cell. FCX Clarity.... That's a technologically advanced car.

Tesla also has done one other very important thing often overlooked. The faster roadster runs 0-60 as fast as a Nissan GT-R. It looks good. It's a sports car. They took the wipmy golf-cart image of an EV and show that EV's can be not only efficient cars, but FUN cars. Battery technology is going to improve fast, and so will EV's. It is the future. And I too, already love the sound.

 

[flaminio]

The main advantage of PHEVs is that they require *zero* changes to the existing infrastructure. Hydrogen vehicles are sexy as all get-out, but we don't have a distribution system for hydrogen, nor a way to produce hydrogen that doesn't consume more energy than the hydrogen provides.

And like I said above, until I can get an electric car to drive from San Francisco to Los Angeles, it will always remain a niche technology.

The most interesting idea I've heard about electric vehicles involves separating the battery pack from the electric motor. This would require a standardized, easily removable battery pack. Just like on a laptop or a cell phone (well, except iPhones), when the battery runs out you pop out the dead one and put in a new one. This would be handled by a drivethrough installable at pretty much any existing service station. You drive in, swipe your credit card, and for less than the cost of a tank of gas, your nearly dead battery is removed and replaced with a fully charged one. The neat thing is that since people do most of their driving around town, trips to the service station would actually decrease with this scheme.

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But even so -- that would require a standardization of battery packs, and an installation of thousands of replacement facilities throughout the country. That still makes it a long term solution. Medium term, it's still all about PHEVs.

 

[Jimbo]

I think there are a lot of people who have a predictable driving route and never go more than 50 miles per day. Also many people/families have multiple cars. I think an electric car could be a nice fit for these people. If the family or couple goes on a trip, they take the conventional car. Otherwise, for the daily commute and tooling around town, doing errands, the electric makes sense.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I think there are a lot of people who have a predictable driving route and never go more than 50 miles per day. Also many people/families have multiple cars. I think an electric car could be a nice fit for these people. If the family or couple goes on a trip, they take the conventional car. Otherwise, for the daily commute and tooling around town, doing errands, the electric makes sense.

Exactly. For tooling around town, which is for 90% of the people 90% of the time, an EV will do the trick better than anything.

In a few years EV's will get their range up to 400-500 miles. Who drives more than that? If it's longer than that people usually fly.

 

[steveny]

Let's talk electric car...

Eventually an electric car will be what I want...

Want? Require! gas futures for 201x are selling for 8.xx a gallon. Gas is going up and the sales of electic cars to help the economy and car builders will be in full force.

 

[flaminio]

Exactly. For tooling around town, which is for 90% of the people 90% of the time, an EV will do the trick better than anything.

My counter analogy to that is the pick-up truck. I know many people who have a truck, and who commute to their white-collar jobs in their trucks. If asked why they need a truck when a car would be much more practical, they'll say that they sometimes need a truck -- hauling stuff from Home Depot, going to the mountains, whatever. But for 90% of the time, it's a waste.

People don't want a 90% car. They want a 100% car. Current technology EVs are not 100% cars. The "use the other car" solution is nothing of the sort. My gasoline powered cars have no limitations. I can drive them 24/7, if I desire. Until I can get an EV with the same utility, count me out.

 

[slamstrom]

When the infrastructure is in place, I can live with a 90% charge while traveling if the 90% charge can be done in 30 minutes or less. Car can be charge during lunch or rest breaks on a road trips.

 

[steveny]

My counter analogy to that is the pick-up truck. I know many people who have a truck, and who commute to their white-collar jobs in their trucks. If asked why they need a truck when a car would be much more practical, they'll say that they sometimes need a truck -- hauling stuff from Home Depot, going to the mountains, whatever. But for 90% of the time, it's a waste.

People don't want a 90% car. They want a 100% car. Current technology EVs are not 100% cars. The "use the other car" solution is nothing of the sort. My gasoline powered cars have no limitations. I can drive them 24/7, if I desire. Until I can get an EV with the same utility, count me out.

i'm on the other end of that and can't imagine how someone could live without a truck. Without a truck I'd be lost!

 

[BATMANs]

As long as electric cars depend on fossil fuels on the electric power generation end it will be a lose.

I'm in China now and there are nuclear reactors as one of many options for power here. That and electric cars make sense. Nuclear reactors in places like California? Right.

At the 2010 Shanghai EXPO SAIC ( china's largest auto maker ) and GM's pavilion boost an "electric car future by 2030.

The buses at EXPO charged for a few seconds at the loading station while people get on and off. Thre's a device that extends and retracts on the roof. Not the ugly power lines over the bus that you see in SF, for example.

United States of China

 

[usafdarkhorse]

As long as electric cars depend on fossil fuels on the electric power generation end it will be a lose.

This right here.

You're just trading consumption of fossil fuels from one end to the other. We generate too much power from non-reusable sources.

As much as I hate to say it, France is on the ball with over 90% nuclear power generation.

 

[BATMANs]

This right here.

You're just trading consumption of fossil fuels from one end to the other. We generate too much power from non-reusable sources.

As much as I hate to say it, France is on the ball with over 90% nuclear power generation.

Tree huggers in California, like most tree huggers have confliciting agendas/policies, etc.

They want the end result without placing much thought in the "big picture".

Thanks to China's totalitarian government, they can move like an unstoppable juggernaut in getting shit down around here (look at India, the other 1.4~ billion country and where "democracy" gotten them).

Here at the EXPO the big theme around here is pollution. Mainly air quality. So far, I've been very lucky in my visit. The skies have been blue in the days here in Shanghai and Beijing. The days that they aren't - rain/fog. Back in 2005 it was fricken nasty. I was coughing and blowing soot from my nose and throat. Landing in Beijing airport was like a scene from TOTAL RECALL on mars.

Since my first visit in China I was reading reports about China's focus on pollution and have attended a GCEP convention at Stanford on technologies for cleaner energy. The Chinese were there in numbers and wanted to adopt the tech.

 

[TURBO2GO]

You're just trading consumption of fossil fuels from one end to the other. .

This is a lame argument that is always brought up against EV's and Plug-in hybrids. If you do all the math, at the end of the day it takes 25% of the energy to produce electricity at a plant and feed your EV as it does to pump gasoline into your car. The facts are there. You are NOT trading from one end to another.

Flaminio, I agree people look for 100% but that is because there is no pressure on them whatsoever. Once they get hit in their wallet, all of a sudden 90% looks REALLY GOOD. When you have to give up nothing, you take 100 over 90. That will not last.

 

[usafdarkhorse]

This is a lame argument that is always brought up against EV's and Plug-in hybrids. If you do all the math, at the end of the day it takes 25% of the energy to produce electricity at a plant and feed your EV as it does to pump gasoline into your car. The facts are there. You are NOT trading from one end to another.

What math??? I don't see any.

As of last year, the Plug in Electric Vehicle was a net loss to the US energy production system ( with pure ethanol vehicles being not far behind, hydrogen being near worst, and biodiesel HEVs being the best with a net positive gain ). The study escapes my grasp at the moment, but I specifically remember their results.

Maybe a new study counters it? Not much has changed in a year for the US energy production system. More needs to be done about renewable US energy sources (like nuclear, hydro, wind, and solar) and improved battery production methods as well as battery life before plug-in-hybrids become a net positive to the US.

It can be done. Right now? I'm skeptical.

 

[TURBO2GO]

As of last year, the Plug in Electric Vehicle was a net loss to the US energy production system.... The study escapes my grasp at the moment, but I specifically remember their results.
.

What does that mean? "a net loss to the U.S. energy production system?" EV's don't produce energy.

Can you explain what that is supposed to mean?

I would love to see the study that says switching standard cars to EV's will result in more overall energy consumption. It sounds ridiculous to me. It's just not based in any kind of fact.

 

[usafdarkhorse]

What does that mean? "a net loss to the U.S. energy production system?" EV's don't produce energy.

Can you explain what that is supposed to mean?

I would love to see the study that says switching standard cars to EV's will result in more overall energy consumption. It sounds ridiculous to me. It's just not based in any kind of fact.

My mistake, it was supposed to be the US energy produced at its current state, IE how the vehicle cost and usage impacts energy production currently.
It's not just about the energy consumed by the vehicle versus the available reproduction, but also the vehicle production. Battery technology and production methods have a long way to go before pure EVs could really benefit us, but that's not to say they never would. The infrastructure costs are astronomical as well (not as bad as hydrogen), but can be overcome.

The study also spoke poorly of ethanol powered vehicles, but to be fair the fuel is renewable, despite their impact on energy production (more diesel used in vehicles to harvest more corn to fuel vehicles) right now. My capstone project my senior year involved designing a hybrid electric powertrain that was powered by solid fuel switchgrass, which is also a viable biofuel option that needs more research.

Interesting stuff to say the least how everything ties together.
Would I like a plug-in EV? Heck yeah I would haha. Can we do it? Yes sir. Is it economical right now? Not really, but that can change.

We really need what's BEHIND our energy production to change. I like nuclear power.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I'm very skeptical of these studies that try to claim that we will use more energy overall to run Electric cars than our standard fuel hogs.

I'd like to see this study you are talking about.

I mean a while back we had a "research" company that claimed a Hummer is more environmentally friendly than a Prius when you take into account battery production, etc.

It was all over the internet (including this forum) and was a bunch of BS by some kid that gathered data off wikipedia and assumed 100K lifetime for a prius and 300K lifetime for a hummer (before each goes to the dump). They even had pictures of a nickel mine that showed devestation of the land and environment and it turns out Toyota had nothing to do with that site (nor its batteries).

Then there are things like Top Gear saying that an M3 gets better milage than a Prius. They created some scenario where the hybrid could not use anything to regenerate and they managed to get 1.5 MPG more in the M3.

There are all sorts of wacky "studies" like this so until I see the actual facts I am just very skeptical. I still think Hydrogen Fuel Cells are the best, followed by pure EV's.

Corn is a HUGE (I MEAN MASSIVE) industry in this country and all of it is owned by one giant food company with a ton of clout. Ethanol gets a lot of credit for reasons it shouldn't be.

 

[usafdarkhorse]

I'm very skeptical of these studies that try to claim that we will use more energy overall to run Electric cars than our standard fuel hogs.

I'd like to see this study you are talking about.

I mean a while back we had a "research" company that claimed a Hummer is more environmentally friendly than a Prius when you take into account battery production, etc.

It was all over the internet (including this forum) and was a bunch of BS by some kid that gathered data off wikipedia and assumed 100K lifetime for a prius and 300K lifetime for a hummer (before each goes to the dump). They even had pictures of a nickel mine that showed devestation of the land and environment and it turns out Toyota had nothing to do with that site (nor its batteries).

Then there are things like Top Gear saying that an M3 gets better milage than a Prius. They created some scenario where the hybrid could not use anything to regenerate and they managed to get 1.5 MPG more in the M3.

There are all sorts of wacky "studies" like this so until I see the actual facts I am just very skeptical. I still think Hydrogen Fuel Cells are the best, followed by pure EV's.

Corn is a HUGE (I MEAN MASSIVE) industry in this country and all of it is owned by one giant food company with a ton of clout. Ethanol gets a lot of credit for reasons it shouldn't be.

It was a class study, so I'm pretty sure it was SAE sponsored and endorsed. I had a graduate level class purely devoted to HEVs, their viability, and needed technological growth. The study came out basically in the middle of our term, around September of last year. I keep trying to find it, but everything's on my old computer. I'd need to email my old professor.

The bottom line is that alot more than just the cost of gas and MPGs goes into transferring from fossil fuel to electric powered vehicles.

I'm not an ethanol fan. I think it's a joke considering how many BTUs each gallon contains compared to the cost of production, and there is literally zero mileage advantage. Its only redeeming factor is the fact that it's renewable (and the turbo guys like running it for its high octane value since they can run more timing).
But I would advocate biodiesel in that case because it costs far less to process, is renewable, and diesel engines are up to 50% thermally efficient (someone mentioned this about gasoline engines before, but our best gasoline engines are about 35% efficient at peak efficient RPM, IE not very often).

Hydrogen technology is really interesting. We worked alongside another team who were converting a Chevy Colorado to run on hydrogen fuel. It just costs more to produce the fuel than it's worth and the infrastructure required to handle it would be far greater than EVs. Another item is safety. The hydrogen fuel cell is generally under great pressure, if I remember correctly, over 300psi. I wouldn't want to get into an accident with a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.

Regardless, things will need to change.

 

[Mac Attack]

Not that I would ever consider it, but they discuss this option over in the Prius forums:

One other thing about a PHEV over a pure EV is the possibility of connecting it to your home in case of power outages and using it as an (expensive) generator.

The Vehicle To Grid (V2G) mod allows you to use your EV as a power plant to power your house in case of a power outage. This is only possible in a Toyota or FORD HSD system due it's ability to shut the engine off when the battery is full and start the engine to charge the battery should it drop below a safe voltage.

Man, that's out there.

Dave

 

[SFNSXguy]

Interesting conversation... but not what I had in mind when I started this thread.

Given: the source of the electrons to power an electric sports car is WAY up in the air at this point in time.

We need a truly great battery to store the juice or maybe a fuel cell to produce it -- or a truly "green" source obviously.

I wanted to talk about how fantastic an electric sports car could be:

With motors in all four wheels traction would be fantastic ("braking" would charge battery).

Torque would be spectacular (a vertical line from one rpm).

Weight distribution, CG and polar moment could be wonderful! Lots of flexibility in design!

There are a few prototypes coming from MB (the electric SLS), Audi (electric R8), the Brit's Lightning Car Company, etc., etc.

I want to be among the first to plant my right foot on the "go" pedal of a well-balanced electric sports car with 250- or more hp at each wheel.

Makes me smile just thinking about it!! (That's 1000 hp and like 800+ ft.lbs. of torque.)

 

[kookoo4nsx]

I am a total non believer in this electric vehicle shit.

First of all the stupid volt is 40k. And you can go 40 miles on a charge that takes somewhere about 6-8 hours on 220v and more than double that on 120v.

Next, lets talk about charging the all electric car if you are on a vacation. I mean really, you pull into a charging station and the absolute fastest you can charge a Nissan Leaf is about 40 minutes. Now imagine 1000's of people driving on a weekend vacation waiting at the recharge station. And exactly how does the recharge station make any money if the reported average cost is like $1.50 to charge the leaf or volt.

I can't imagine why all you California nuts have not cried foul over the envioronmental impact of mining the Nickel, lead and other heavy metals that go into these batteries. There are very, very bad metals like mercury that are byproducts of mining. Also where does your power company get its fuel to power your charger. Well somewhere around 50% of our energy is powered by Coal!!!!!!!

Does anyone here know that the Nissan Leaf battery pack costs $15,000 to replace? For heavens sake a single NiMH battery for a boat costs over $2000.00 vs $100 for a lead cell and $225 for a gel cell. The Volt and Leaf batteries have a estimated life somewhere around 7-9 years. Speaking from first hand knowledge a friend of mine has a civic hybrid. It's an '03 and his battery pack exhausted itself in 5 1/2 years. Luckily it had a Honda 7 year warranty. The dealer told my friend he saved a few thousand dollars. What happens in another 5 1/2 years.

Finally this is all about saving gas. If you add up the costs of inconvenience, lost productivity time, short mileage, up front costs and unknown environmental and infrastructure costs this is going to be one of man kinds biggest boondoggles.

It seems to me if your goal is to lessen the impact on the environment in as many ways as possible the best car to drive is a light weight, all aluminum or mostly aluminum car with a low hp clean burning diesel. Too bad the Ford Fiesta Eco diesel never made it here. Good looks and 65mpg.

If you are trying to save money and you cannot recoup your costs in the first 3-4 years the technology is a waste and will never work. That's why putting solar panels on a house might save you $200 per month electric bill but the upfront cost is 30k. Give me a break! Get back to me when any of these energy saving, tree hugging, planet temperature fixing ideas work and are affordable.

See article:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm

 

[passline]

Heard something about a Tesla recall today. Catching on fire???
Anyone hear this?

 

[Briank]

Electric cars are just fancy golf carts. Here in the frozen north they are use less. The cold kills the battery capacity and heating takes care of the rest, in hot climates the heat cooks the life out of the battery and the load of air conditioning drains the battery.