Let's talk electric car

[Juice]

Again, this has nothing to do with the availability of crude oil (currently a surplus) and more to do with environmental taxation.

Let me know when they "reveal" that H can be wrung out of H2O through harmonics. Of course, that puts billions of good people at good companies out of a job as oil and the infrastructure surrounding it would instantly become obsolete.

EVs are just another form of dependance on foreign materials. Ya, great idea.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I wanted to talk about how fantastic an electric sports car could be:

They can have a lot of advantages.

With motors in all four wheels traction would be fantastic ("braking" would charge battery).

Yes, true 4 wheel drive, mated with an intelligent computer could do some crazy things on a race track. Corner entry and exit, and stability control can be amazing when you have full individual power at each wheel without any sort of differential limiting control. It would be an engineer's dream.

Torque would be spectacular (a vertical line from one rpm).

Yes, the Fisker Karma produces 990 pounds of torque at 0 RPM. 990!!

Weight distribution, CG and polar moment could be wonderful! Lots of flexibility in design!

Yes, absolutely. Very low center of gravity that just cannot be had with an ICE engine would do wonders for handling. Already, the Leaf is getting terrific reviews for its handling and it is not really a performance car. That wasn't the goal anyway.

There is a lot of potential and I think we will see it very soon as EV's start to take hold. The Leaf has had terrific consumer interest. Right now EV's are mainly made for efficiency but electric motors and batteries have a ton of performance potential. Porsche's racing GT-3 hybrid isn't there to showcase fuel economy. It is there because the motors are providing a PERFORMANCE advantage.

They are also putting the 918 into production:

At some point the racing technology will filter down into consumer cars, just like now with standard ICE technology. I am glad not everyone sits around and says "EV's are a stupid". There is a ton of fantastic engineering work being done on this and on battery technology. Because some potentially enormous amounts of money involved, what we get for information as to what is being done and what is possible is pretty limited. There is tremendous investment going in. If EV's were only going to be glorified golf carts that wouldn't be happening.

 

[jond]

How you you feel about an electric (sports) car?

IMO, as long as we're burning coal to make electricity I don't see the point.
Trade gasoline for coal? Why?

When everyone has solar on the roof of their house, THEN it will be genius.
My guess is that's 15-20 years away.

 

[RJPKRP]

IMO, as long as we're burning coal to make electricity I don't see the point.
Trade gasoline for coal? Why?

When everyone has solar on the roof of their house, THEN it will be genius.
My guess is that's 15-20 years away.

Coal only makes up 48% of domestic electricity production. Petroleum is 1%, that means 51% of domestic electricity is NOT made from Coal and Petroleum.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Trade gasoline for coal? Why?

It's not just about shifting your source of energy. Electrics are just MUCH more efficient. 35-40% efficiency for gasoline engine, high 40's for the most efficient turbo-diesels, and over 90% for electrics.

The debate on the source of energy is a debate on its own, but if you want to be efficient, the first thing you should do is create a more efficient car. EV's are on a whole other level.

I think the arguments over energy source tend to be heavily political and not always based on fact.

 

[Jimbo]

The nice thing about electric cars is that electricity can be generated by any source. We need to shift from coal to more nuclear.

All these things take time. Electric cars will be a small percentage and that's fine. It will take 15-20 years to refine and improve the technology and to build the infrastructure.

There's nothing wrong starting now and let the early adopters, who have a predictable driving pattern - and the inclination, to buy electric. You have to start sometime, and there does seem to be a good market for a small percentage of e-cars.

 

[kookoo4nsx]

I hate being the negative Ned on the thread but let's look at where Solar is now? How about EV cars? What about wind? They are not much more efficient or cost effective than they were 10 or even 20 years ago. Right now China is buying the world's commodities. How long before the price of Nickle doubles or triples?????? Remember GM killed the ev1 in 1999 and that all electric vehicle had range of 75-100 miles. So where has 11 years of technology gotten us??????????

If the Volt came with a sticker price somewhere near 22-25k then that would be reasonable for some. The Gubment subsidy only increases the price, not lowers it.

If you really want to safe on gas buy a 3 year old Prius. They are about 15k.

Just watch how the car dealers jack up the prices of the first leaf/volt cars to hit the street.

I really can't wait to watch NASCAR in 20 years with all electric cars. What fun that will be.

 

[NSX2398]

Although I don't personally know anyone in Canada that has one, I'm pretty sure they have sold some here. I have read that in cold conditions, they use some of the battery capacity to heat the enclosed battery module. They showed some pictures of them doing winter testing on a frozen lake to prove it.
..Ian

Electric cars are just fancy golf carts. Here in the frozen north they are use less. The cold kills the battery capacity and heating takes care of the rest, in hot climates the heat cooks the life out of the battery and the load of air conditioning drains the battery.

 

[TURBO2GO]

How about EV cars? What about wind? They are not much more efficient or cost effective than they were 10 or even 20 years ago.

Every technology you mention has made huge strides in both efficiency and cost effectiveness due to research and better technology over the last 20 years. Wind, electric, EV's, battery technology, solar panels, motor design... Nothing is even remotely close to what it was 20 years ago. I'm trying to understand what facts you are basing your statements on.

Right now China is buying the world's commodities. How long before the price of Nickle doubles or triples??????

OK so we agree that commodities on the planet are finite. So if one is concerned about that, then it is better to be efficient, right? Nickel is a recyclable and reusable material. We just don't do a whole lot with it currently, but as demand increases and supply dwindles, that makes it more profitable to recycle. Then you will see companies that will pop up and take advantage of that very fact.

Remember GM killed the ev1 in 1999 and that all electric vehicle had range of 75-100 miles. So where has 11 years of technology gotten us??????????

The first generation EV1 was using lead acid batteries. The second gen went to NimH batteries... now EV's are using Lithium Ion batteries. The first EV1 barely passed crash regulations, in fact it was exempt from certain tests. A current EV meets all federal crash tests, and a Tesla has a range that is close to triple that of the EV1. Thats where 11 years of technology has gotten us.

If the Volt came with a sticker price somewhere near 22-25k then that would be reasonable for some. The Gubment subsidy only increases the price, not lowers it.

The Volt is not an EV, just to be clear.

Just watch how the car dealers jack up the prices of the first leaf/volt cars to hit the street.

Don't dealers do that to all cars? How does being an EV make it any different? Can you explain your point with this? I am not sure how it relates.

I really can't wait to watch NASCAR in 20 years with all electric cars. What fun that will be

People watch NASCAR for A LOT of different reasons, most of them do not have anything to do with the type of engine used in the cars. It is about the teams, the drivers, the personalities, for some.. the crashes, the wins and losses, etc. That will never change. Will the public learn to love the sound of an electric motor whirring up and the screech of the tires? Maybe... but if not, NASCAR will most likely retain the gas engines. I am not sure what this has to do with consumer cars. No one is outlawing manufacturing gasoline engines. Are you trying to say that we shouldn't research and build EV's because they may seep into racing and make NASCAR boring?!

 

[TURBO2GO]

Although I don't personally know anyone in Canada that has one, I'm pretty sure they have sold some here. I have read that in cold conditions, they use some of the battery capacity to heat the enclosed battery module. They showed some pictures of them doing winter testing on a frozen lake to prove it.
..Ian

Exactly. The entire battery system is temperature controlled and by a very efficient system that keeps them operating well within range. Tesla has done a lot of cold weather testing in Sweden and the cars have held up excellent in cold weather.

These are simple engineering challenges. You can't say "EV's will never make it" just because challenges are there. We have had internal combustion for nearly 100 years. Give EV's 100 years of refinement and they will probably be flying saucers by then. LOL...

 

[kookoo4nsx]

All good points however......


The first generation EV1 was using lead acid batteries. The second gen went to NimH batteries... now EV's are using Lithium Ion batteries. The first EV1 barely passed crash regulations, in fact it was exempt from certain tests. A current EV meets all federal crash tests, and a Tesla has a range that is close to triple that of the EV1. Thats where 11 years of technology has gotten us.


The Tesla has a sticker price of nearly 100k. That rules it out for about 99.8% of drivers. Also EV1 had a range of 75-100 miles. Lead batteries are heavy but cheep. How has moving to LIon batteries increased range? Are they lighter?

I thought the point of the EV or hybread was to be more efficient, better for the environment and at roughly the same cost.

The Volt offers short range, the inconvenience of having to recharge, environmental damage from having to dig up coal to power the electric utility, gas to power the car when not on battery and now Nickel and Lithium.

Where major leaps could be made is if the hood, trunk and roof were solar panels that could at least partially recharge the car during the day.

Although I don't doubt that the new Hybrid and EV cars will make a splash they will probably be used by upper income individuals and families as a 3rd car. I also agree that there is much room for efficiency gains and now that this technology is actually going mainstream it will advance quicker.

I'm all for using renewable resources. The 60 or so CFL lightbulbs in my 3700 sq ft home save me about $75-$100.00 per month in electric costs vs my neighbor with almost the same sized house. Right now Walmart is replacing all of their light bulbs with LED's that produce less heat, less energy and last 50,000 hours. The break even is like 12-18 months. Then it's pure profit.

 

[TURBO2GO]

All good points however......The Tesla has a sticker price of nearly 100k. That rules it out for about 99.8% of drivers.

So? There are many cars that have a sticker over 100K and 99% of people can't afford them. What does that have to do with the viability of EV's? The model S from Tesla is 60K. The Nissan Leaf is $35 or so. I am sure we will see less expensive models as the technology matures. Are you suggesting that because one of the most innovative and design-costly automobiles in the world initially came out at 100K that EV's are no good?!

How has moving to LIon batteries increased range? Are they lighter?

Lighter, more compact, have totally different charge/discharge functionality. When is the last time you saw a lead acid battery in a laptop, cell phone, or cordless drill?

I thought the point of the EV or hybread was to be more efficient, better for the environment and at roughly the same cost.

It is, and they will be all of that eventually... but you want that instantly? Someone has to Pioneer the technology. Then supporters and early adapters help finance the research costs (like the case in the 100K Tesla). As more money rolls in costs come down, like in anything.

Where major leaps could be made is if the hood, trunk and roof were solar panels that could at least partially recharge the car during the day.

There are quite a few cars that use solar panels already to charge the batteries, but the charge is slow and small, it is costly. I don't think you are the first person that has thought of this. Have you seen the roof panel on a Fisker Karma? How about the optional solar panel available on any Prius?

Although I don't doubt that the new Hybrid and EV cars will make a splash they will probably be used by upper income individuals and families as a 3rd car. I also agree that there is much room for efficiency gains and now that this technology is actually going mainstream it will advance quicker.

That is exactly my point. One can't look at a budding technology and call it stupid or useless, because if we did that then nothing would ever go anywhere. Those people that bear the brunt of the up-front costs are actually the ones that make it cheaper for the rest of us. Imagine if when plasma TV's first came out everyone said "too expensive" and no one sold ANY. You think we would have $600 50" panels now? The first plasma TV's were $30,000 for a 42".

 

[SFNSXguy]

Again, from my point of view the Tesla is not an electric car -- just a regular car in which someone replaced the engine with a motor -- low tech.

 

[SENNAF1]

If you can find it watch (who killed the electric car) that will piss you off.

 

[Mac Attack]

And now to go a little more off-topic...

Here's a M3 dyno day where they also did a new 2010 Prius:biggrin:

It was the suprise of the day with almost 120WHP (The 3rd run was in the normal mode). They didn't feel like tapping into a coil wire for RPM, so the x-axis is in speed.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=441171

 

[Juice]

Nuclear is the way to go, but how many nuclear reactors are being built in America right now? Zero. When was the last one built? 1977. How has the technology changed? Infinitely safer. So why are we not planning to build more? Government won't allow it. Why? Nuclear will be too efficient and clean, escaping the chains of tax and trade.

They don't want coal to go away any more than they want the sales of cigarettes to stop. Follow the $.

 

[steveny]

Electric cars are just fancy golf carts. Here in the frozen north they are use less. The cold kills the battery capacity and heating takes care of the rest, in hot climates the heat cooks the life out of the battery and the load of air conditioning drains the battery.

Same can be said for the new requirements that ban incandescent bulbs. It's gonna be a dark winter.

 

[Mac Attack]

Nuclear is the way to go, but how many nuclear reactors are being built in America right now? Zero. When was the last one built? 1977. How has the technology changed? Infinitely safer. So why are we not planning to build more? Government won't allow it. Why? Nuclear will be too efficient and clean, escaping the chains of tax and trade.

They don't want coal to go away any more than they want the sales of cigarettes to stop. Follow the $.

Actually, four are being built right now. Two southeast utilities are the largest construction projects in the US right now. Our utility has already spent $500million clearing land and doing base work on two new reactors (out of a ~$12billion program). They should go online in the next 6 years or so and produce another ~2300MWe total.

In the nuclear industry, the past few years have been our renaissance

As a nuclear engineer, I'm aware of the benefits and dangers. I'm certainly not an oblivious fanboy. There is no perfect energy technology yet (especially when you factor in cost). But, it does play an important role in our energy dependency.

Dave

 

[NSXLuvr]

How did we go from EV to energy consumption to Nuclear?:biggrin:

Personally - I really like the Volt. The interior is way way to cheap for $40K car though. The price of the EV technology is crazy but it should come down with time.

I live in small town so a Pure EV vehicle with even a 50 mile range would be ideal for a daily commuter. I can use my other vehicles for long distance trips and for fun.

 

[swerve2007]

The Volt offers short range, the inconvenience of having to recharge,
.

just to point out this commonly quoted misconception about the Volt- its' range is almost 300 miles, not 40- the 40 mile range is in pure electric mode until the gas engine kicks in powering the generator to supply both the propelling power and charging the battery.

 

[usafdarkhorse]

How did we go from EV to energy consumption to Nuclear?:biggrin:

Because they're all related.

 

[jond]

Coal only makes up 48% of domestic electricity production. Petroleum is 1%, that means 51% of domestic electricity is NOT made from Coal and Petroleum.

True. It depends on what the motive is for going electric.
If the goal is a better environment, then the argument that Nuclear is better than gasoline is a hard one to make IMO. At best they're even.
If your goal is stop sending so much money over seas, yeah, let's do it.

It's not just about shifting your source of energy. Electrics are just MUCH more efficient. 35-40% efficiency for gasoline engine, high 40's for the most efficient turbo-diesels, and over 90% for electrics.

But remember, the electricity has to be made(as does gas). What's the efficiency difference there? And it has to be stored in batteries. What's the efficiency there?
AKA, there's more than just the efficiency levels of the engines themselves.

I don't know for sure, but intuitively, it seems like taking oil, converting to gas and creating mini explosions has to be MUCH more efficient than taking coal, heating water with it, having the resulting steam push around a generator, and then pushing the electricity across hundreds of miles of steal line to a battery.

I think the arguments over energy source tend to be heavily political and not always based on fact.

I agree. It's tied into the global warming scare, tied into national security, tied into 'peak oil', into carbon credit, and into politics.
Seems there are tons of ways to take pre-defined positions. And it seems no one has hard science and everyone has ulterior motives.

It's a hard subject to talk about....

 

[gdae]

I won't feel guilty throwing in a few random observations since everyone else seems to be doing it.

First, yes, let's dump the whole electric car thing because it's not fully formed and perfect now, regardless of what it could become. I'm going to use that same philosophy when I get home and throw our baby in the garbage. Don't feel bad. She's currently useless, after all.

One option, it seems to me, would be a slot-car type of arrangement. You have, say, 10 miles of on-board battery power, enough to get you to the highway. There, you will drive over contact rails which would not only power your car while driving, but also recharge the batteries.
Think about it. All the torque of electric motors, but none of the battery weight. A rolling shell with motor.

Lastly, space probes are powered by nuclear decay devices. How about a 75-pound unit that powers your car for the rest of its life, which can then be transferred to your new car, and passed down as an heirloom for who knows how long?
Yes, I know. Many tricky details to work out on that one. Let's not even consider it.

For further reading:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105376

P.S., once you get past the introductory pages, you'll see "See 2011 Exar Design," or something like that. When you click the link, it will tell you that you don't have access to see the design.
PM me and I'll tell you how to get in. The new design is cool. WAY cool.

 

[ChopsJazz]

First, yes, let's dump the whole electric car thing because it's not fully formed and perfect now, regardless of what it could become. I'm going to use that same philosophy when I get home and throw our baby in the garbage. Don't feel bad. She's currently useless, after all.

Best observation so far. :wink:

 

[Hard Five]

First, yes, let's dump the whole electric car thing because it's not fully formed and perfect now, regardless of what it could become. I'm going to use that same philosophy when I get home and throw our baby in the garbage. Don't feel bad. She's currently useless, after all.

As a new father with a currently "useless" daughter, this made my week. Seriously, best quote ever. :biggrin: