MAC OR PC which is better?

[shawn110975]

Well I have not been programming as long as some but I have been on a computer writing games since the old IBM AT, with a whopping 6mhz CPU 512kb ram and floppy drives.

not alot of programming anymore LOL I got to old to care about it.

and who can forget the IBM PS2, 16mhz cpu 100mb Harddrive that one was 10,000 bucks I think I was 11-12 years old I forget.

like someone else posted, I like to do what i want and not have someone tell me I cant do something.

there is always a better hacker out there. just make sure you have an external back-up and if your shit gets hacked, oh well and keep moving.

 

[KrayziE RussiaN]

I was a PC guy for a very long time and never really paid attention to the Macs much. With my latest job, most of the peeps around me were using Macs and when my PC quit on me on the road I decided to look into a Mac Book Pro (also because I was looking into goofing around with DJing). I'm glad I chose to buy a Mac and not really looking back. I love it. Very user friendly and I don't have to worry about errors. The PC I switched from was a little over a year old Dell Laptop.

 

[Hapa88]

One room in a very secure area is hardly representative. These PCs are likely custom specific built Tempest rated machines with fingerprint ID access, EMI shielding and other high level secure features. These are likely assembled and sold by a gov't VAR. Interesting, but not really indicative of Mac vs PC in gov't.

Hmm, that could be true, but lets see what IS indicative of Mac vs PC in the gov't. Let's look to see how the government spends our money and where.

http://www.fedspending.org/ is a website and database to give journalists, analysts, government officials, and regular citizens easy access to information on federal spending.

According to it, in FY2000 to FY2009, the US Government spent:

$16,373,091 with Apple Inc (of which $2,080,029 was used to buy computers, assuming Macs)
http://www.fedspending.org/fpds/fpd...eptype=r&database=fpds&fiscal_year=&submit=GO

$11,095,972,062 with IBM (of which $78,010,255 was used to buy computers, assuming PCs)
http://www.fedspending.org/fpds/fpd...eptype=r&database=fpds&fiscal_year=&submit=GO

$8,758,764,037 with Dell Computer (of which $3,934,009,853 was used to buy computers, assuming PCs)
http://www.fedspending.org/fpds/fpd...eptype=r&database=fpds&fiscal_year=&submit=GO

$18,346,803,312 with Hewlett-Packard (of which $189,363,956 was used on computers, assuming PCs)
http://www.fedspending.org/fpds/fpd...eptype=r&database=fpds&fiscal_year=&submit=GO

So basically between FY2000 to FY2009 the US Government spent
$4,201,384,064 on PC hardware (from the big 3 PC companies) and
$2,080,029 on Macs (or about 2020 times less).

I think it's safe to say PCs rule in the US Government and the picture IS indicative of Mac vs PC in the gov't. :smile:

 

[shawn110975]

WOW Hapa88

nice find

 

[Jimbo]

I would pay to see the specs on this "comparative" Dell unit. :wink:

It's easy enough to do yourself. I bought a 17" MacBook Pro with 8GB RAM - DDR3 1067 Ghz, 512GB SSD, 2.8Ghz Intel i7. This was about 6 months ago. I was looking at a similar Dell Precision laptop.

Now the latest MacBook Pros use the Sandy Bridge chips and have the high-speed ThunderBolt I/O - which is an awesome capability.

Apple includes a lot that is standard whereas on the Dell it's optional or not even available - Bluetooth, FireWire 800, NVidia GeForce GT 330M & on-board Intel video to save on battery, 802.11a/b/g/n, GB Ethernet, FaceTime camera, Express Card/34 slot, double layer DVD / CD reader/writer, 3 USB 2.0 ports.

My MBPro was just under $4K (the 500GB SSD drive was a $1100 option) and the Dell Precision was about $4,100.

I agree that when it comes to low-end laptops - Apple doesn't really have anything to compete with a $500 laptop.

 

[Jimbo]

Adrian,

Well sure, there are a lot more PC than Macs everywhere. My point was that it was silly to base an assumption about government PC usage on a single room with a handful of laptops.

It's only been in the last few years that Mac sales (and now iPad) have skyrocketed.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article..._mac_sales_surge_200_enterprise_grows_50.html

Apple's doing pretty well for themselves - and they're a lot more profitable than Dell.

PS: I think the assumption that all those sales to IBM and HP were PCs might be a bit optimistic too.

 

[Hapa88]

Jimbo,
Apple is doing well for themselves. I should know because I bought a bunch of shares of Apple back when it was $89 a share. Check it out now. I'm doing alright. :smile:

Apple is a great company. I have their iPhone4, their iPad2, and my fiancee has the iPhone3GS and the aluminum Macbook that I got for her. They make really good products, but the fact is, the US Government uses PCs. Always has, and probably will continue to use it because of compatibility issues. It's not cost effective for the government to change all of their systems and databases now to switch to Macs. Most city governments use PCs too.

I've been in Aerospace industry since 2002 and have yet to see an Apple computer on any system I've worked on . . Not to say I'm closed to the idea, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

PS: I think the assumption that all those sales to IBM and HP were PCs might be a bit optimistic too.

As for the assumption, when you expand the summary out, the money is allotted to "ADP Central Processing Unit (CPU, Computer)". Not really sure how else you can interpret that...

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

I figured this topic would pop up in a new thread.

Shawn, it's obvious you're one sided on this issue and nothing anyone can say will change your mind. But I ask this again like I did in the other thread when you bashed Macs. Have you personally ever owned one?

And also, why are you so against them?

Stephen

 

[Jimbo]

Adrian,

It's already happening. They don't use PCs exclusively. I know this for a fact. Numerous government locations use Macs all the time. Apple has an entire Federal division. I know many people who work there.

http://www.apple.com/r/store/government/

In addition, Apple recently partnered with Unisys to help in Enterprise and Gov't sales.

I used to work for Lockheed-Martin and they had a lot of Macs in specific areas. NASA has tons of Macs - again I know people that work there and use them - and I know Apple people who support NASA as well.

NIST, FDA, CDC and numerous government labs are big Apple customers too. Science, chemistry, visualization, genetic research has a high percentage of Macs - and of course, publishing and graphics have always been Mac strongholds in gov't. The Apple guys down in the DC area are just swamped with work and Apple is hiring like crazy.

The gov't doesn't have to change database systems or architecture. Most database, communications and inter-operability standards are fully supported on Mac OS X and iOS. I think most people would be surprised at how robust the Mac OS and iOS is when it comes to networking, security and enterprise integration.

Perhaps you've just been in the wrong places to see all the Apple activity but government and enterprise sales have just skyrocketed for Apple in the last year or two. This is why major players, such as SAP and Oracle support Mac OS X and iOS fully.

 

[KrayziE RussiaN]

I'm sure we're going to start seeing the iPads being used by a lot of the FED agencies. In fact, I'm sure they already are.

 

[IsR]

I love this Thread, very good and mature opinions, started kinda silly and now is all technical and mature .... <3 you NSXPRIME!

Agree.
I've been a apple/mac user for past 13 years for personal use and Window based PC for work.
Multimedia, personally I find that mac is easier to use. All home related apps and usages I find my macs are ideal for it.
As for more office based software, my company does mainly operate on window based PC. And I do find they are easier for me to create and sync for what our office required, probably because I've been using them for work for more then a decade.
Both are great advancement. Technology is as good as the person behind it.

 

[willabeest]

Agree.
I've been a apple/mac user for past 13 years for personal use and Window based PC for work.
Multimedia, personally I find that mac is easier to use. All home related apps and usages I find my macs are ideal for it.
As for more office based software, my company does mainly operate on window based PC. And I do find they are easier for me to create and sync for what our office required, probably because I've been using them for work for more then a decade.
Both are great advancement. Technology is as good as the person behind it.

i use both apple and PC products. the differences are compatibility, price, ease of use, software availability. if you can only have one computer and ease of use is your #1 priority (and that is a big one) go with an apple. if price, software availability, compatibility are primary go with PC.
for example - if you are a gamer, you will hate apple, because it will be expensive to upgrade, software is more expensive (for the same game!), and you will have about 20% of the games available to buy then you would with a PC.
on the other hand if you own a PC and cannot get your software to ever work correctly, you do not mind paying twice or even 3 times as much for the same hardware, and you do not play games, go straight to the apple store.:smile:

 

[Arshad]

Jimbo: Actually Apple has switched over to using even more power graphics chips from AMD on the latest MacBookPro's. They have some very unique power savings mechanisms and seamless switching between the integrated and discrete GPU's. When you're just surfing the web or using office apps, it uses the integrated Intel graphics. When you want to run a game, it automatically switches to the AMD graphics. This switching can happen multiple times a second and is completely glitch free.

Under Windows, some laptops offer a similar feature, but they only do it based on a policy of whether you're connected to power or running on battery, and often times the switching has a visual glitch associated with it. This sucks when you're running on battery and want to run a game or a powerful graphics app ... you're stuck with crappy performance.

Apple has done a LOT in the area of power, which is why you can use your high end, powerful MacBookPro for 7-8 hours of real-world use, whereas a similarly powered Windows laptop will give you 3-4 hours at best.

The other consideration if you do need to run Windows apps, is the use of Parallels or Bootcamp. Both methods allow you to run Windows applications on your Mac. Bootcamp effectively turns your laptop into a Windows machine (we have some hardcore Windows users at work who bought MacBookPro's simply for the aesthetics and performance, and only run windows on it), and Parallels allows you to run Windows apps at full speed right on your Mac desktop, completely seamlessly. Best of both worlds.

Let's face it, Apple is not competing against the low end PC manufacturers. They spend a ton of money on enclosures, on high end components, on the very best LCD's, etc. You get a premium product -- along with the associated premium pricing. Obviously they're doing something right because they are growing like gangbusters (much much faster than the PC market), and this is obvious in their financials and market share capture over the past 3-4 years.

 

[99NCNSX]

Maybe this says it all!


http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/apple-become-trillion-dollar-company-says-altucher-1-124741845.html

 

[Hapa88]

Adrian,

It's already happening. They don't use PCs exclusively. I know this for a fact. Numerous government locations use Macs all the time. Apple has an entire Federal division. I know many people who work there.

http://www.apple.com/r/store/government/

In addition, Apple recently partnered with Unisys to help in Enterprise and Gov't sales.

I used to work for Lockheed-Martin and they had a lot of Macs in specific areas. NASA has tons of Macs - again I know people that work there and use them - and I know Apple people who support NASA as well.

NIST, FDA, CDC and numerous government labs are big Apple customers too. Science, chemistry, visualization, genetic research has a high percentage of Macs - and of course, publishing and graphics have always been Mac strongholds in gov't. The Apple guys down in the DC area are just swamped with work and Apple is hiring like crazy.

The gov't doesn't have to change database systems or architecture. Most database, communications and inter-operability standards are fully supported on Mac OS X and iOS. I think most people would be surprised at how robust the Mac OS and iOS is when it comes to networking, security and enterprise integration.

Perhaps you've just been in the wrong places to see all the Apple activity but government and enterprise sales have just skyrocketed for Apple in the last year or two. This is why major players, such as SAP and Oracle support Mac OS X and iOS fully.

Jimbo,
I don't know what we're arguing about here. I never said the government uses PCs "exclusively." I just said that the picture posted at the top is representative of the government in its PC use. Being that they spend 2020 times more on PC hardware than Mac, it's hard to argue that.

Yes, Apple is growing. . Yes, Apple is expanding into Government contracts (I've already shown that the US has spent $16M with them)... Yes, you'll probably see a few Macs here and there, but the fact is 99% of all computer hardware owned by the US Government is PC based. Think of all the servers, all the desktop computers and portable laptops used by Government (which includes DoD, NASA, AirForce, Army, Marines, Navy, & Coast Guard services and service people).

In order for that first picture to be indicative of the US government they'd need 2020 PC users and 1 Mac person to show up in that room.

Do a Google search on "Apple NASA contract" and guess what pops up?
HP winning a $2.5 billion contract with NASA
http://newenterprise.allthingsd.com...ard-lifts-off-with-nasa-contract/?mod=ATD_rss

Do a search on "Apple iOS and Government" and what pops up?
http://www.appleinsider.com/print/1..._concern_to_apple_over_location_tracking.html

Also, tons of companies have government stores. Everyone knows HP, IBM, & Dell have one. . Did you these companies have one too?

Samsung
http://www.samsung.com/us/aboutsamsung/citizenship/usactivities_government_contracts.html
Panasonic
http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughbook/federal-government-computers.asp
Sony
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/mkt-government/
Canon
http://usa.canon.com/cusa/office/standard_display/GMDindex/

 

[Hapa88]

It's easy enough to do yourself. I bought a 17" MacBook Pro with 8GB RAM - DDR3 1067 Ghz, 512GB SSD, 2.8Ghz Intel i7. This was about 6 months ago. I was looking at a similar Dell Precision laptop.

Now the latest MacBook Pros use the Sandy Bridge chips and have the high-speed ThunderBolt I/O - which is an awesome capability.

Apple includes a lot that is standard whereas on the Dell it's optional or not even available - Bluetooth, FireWire 800, NVidia GeForce GT 330M & on-board Intel video to save on battery, 802.11a/b/g/n, GB Ethernet, FaceTime camera, Express Card/34 slot, double layer DVD / CD reader/writer, 3 USB 2.0 ports.

My MBPro was just under $4K (the 500GB SSD drive was a $1100 option) and the Dell Precision was about $4,100.

I agree that when it comes to low-end laptops - Apple doesn't really have anything to compete with a $500 laptop.

$4000 on a laptop!?!?
We coming from two different worlds my friend...:tongue::smile:

 

[flaminio]

Yeah, in the real world (not the theoretical staged lab examples) Macs are much more secure due to their OS architecture. And it's not because of hackers ignoring the Mac or the smaller market share.

This may be changing:

Is Mac under a virus attack?

To save the trouble of reading the article, the answer is currently "No." However, the fact remains that there exists a malware kit for Macs now.

Q: What does MAC Defender do? According to a memo released Monday by the computer security site Intego: 1) It runs a fake Windows virus scan animation and announces that your computer is infected. 2) It runs a real Mac installation program and asks for your administrator password. 3) Once installed, it makes your computer act like it really is infected, opening offensive websites and generally misbehaving. 4) It offers you 1-year, 2-year or lifetime protection. 5) If you buy the protection, it steals your credit card number.

Sound familiar? It's the same kind of crap Windows users put up with on a routine basis.

Given the fact that most Mac users run without any antimalware programs at all, I think it's only a matter of time before we see a genuine and widespread Mac virus outbreak.

 

[Arshad]

Flaminio... Most Mac users don't run anti-virus programs. As such, they're more than likely to ignore "Mac Defender", especially if it comes up and asks for administrators password. This isn't the first trojan, and it won't be the last.

 

[Jimbo]

I seem to remember that there was a bogus version of iWork out there on the Internet and it had a harmless trojan horse inside.

Those people who downloaded the program illegally were stricken because they had to authenticate and enter their password.

There just hasn't been any real-world widespread problem and I would be very surprised indeed to see any kind of large scale problem with the Mac OS.

 

[shawn110975]

yeah but the way mac users FIX any issues with their programs not working is to re-install. instead of fixing the issue just wipe it out and start fresh is their motto.

kinda points you back to 90% of mac users are ................

fill in blank

 

[Jimbo]

$4000 on a laptop!?!?
We coming from two different worlds my friend...:tongue::smile:

I guess. There are a lot of people who use high-end laptops as their only computer. I use high-end CAD programs for a living and having the fastest machine saves me time and money. The payback for the price delta over a "regular" laptop is minimal for me.

There's also the annoyance factor. If I have to wait 5 seconds for each CAD operation to happen, well, that's very annoying. That's why I got the expensive options of the fastest Intel i7 chip I could get and the solid state drive. These options probably doubled the cost of the machine.

By the way, the SSD is amazing. If you really want to speed up your computer, consider getting a SSD. If I had to, I would even get a small SSD (like 100GB) and just not store as many files locally. Or if the choice was between a 2.8Ghz and 2.4Ghz CPU, I'd definately get the lesser CPU and put that money toward a SSD. It's also a great way to breathe new life into an older machine. You may just find that the 5 year old computer with a SSD is almost as fast as a new computer with a conventional HD.

Once you use a SSD, you'll never go back!

 

[Jimbo]

Jimbo,
I don't know what we're arguing about here. I never said the government uses PCs "exclusively." I just said that the picture posted at the top is representative of the government in its PC use. Being that they spend 2020 times more on PC hardware than Mac, it's hard to argue that.

Yes, Apple is growing. . Yes, Apple is expanding into Government contracts (I've already shown that the US has spent $16M with them)... Yes, you'll probably see a few Macs here and there, but the fact is 99% of all computer hardware owned by the US Government is PC based. Think of all the servers, all the desktop computers and portable laptops used by Government (which includes DoD, NASA, AirForce, Army, Marines, Navy, & Coast Guard services and service people).

In order for that first picture to be indicative of the US government they'd need 2020 PC users and 1 Mac person to show up in that room.

Do a Google search on "Apple NASA contract" and guess what pops up?
HP winning a $2.5 billion contract with NASA
http://newenterprise.allthingsd.com...ard-lifts-off-with-nasa-contract/?mod=ATD_rss

Do a search on "Apple iOS and Government" and what pops up?
http://www.appleinsider.com/print/1..._concern_to_apple_over_location_tracking.html

Also, tons of companies have government stores. Everyone knows HP, IBM, & Dell have one. . Did you these companies have one too?

Samsung
http://www.samsung.com/us/aboutsamsung/citizenship/usactivities_government_contracts.html
Panasonic
http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughbook/federal-government-computers.asp
Sony
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/mkt-government/
Canon
http://usa.canon.com/cusa/office/standard_display/GMDindex/

Adrian,

Sorry if i misintrepreted your comments. When you said the following...

but the fact is, the US Government uses PCs. Always has, and probably will continue to use it because of compatibility issues

...it sounded pretty definitive to me.

Look, my only point is that government agencies do in fact use the Mac and iPhone/iPad and that over the past year or two, the growth has been amazing - and in fact much more than any other company. That was my point with the original link...

http://www.appleinsider.com/article..._mac_sales_surge_200_enterprise_grows_50.html

Which says....

As noted by analyst Charlie Wolf of Needham & Company Monday, Mac government sales grew 200.8 percent year over year in the June quarter, well beyond the 12.1 percent growth seen by the rest of the PC market.

In addition, the business market grew 49.8 percent during those three months, besting the market-wide 15.7 percent growth in enterprise sales. Apple's best business sales came with very large companies, where Mac shipments improved 103 percent. Large businesses also bought 98.3 percent more Macs than the previous year.

I wasn't trying to imply that the majority of computers sold to gov't are from Apple.

But the recent growth rate and interest is amazing. This is one reason why Apple's market cap surpassed Microsoft.

 

[Jimbo]

Jimbo: Actually Apple has switched over to using even more power graphics chips from AMD on the latest MacBookPro's. They have some very unique power savings mechanisms and seamless switching between the integrated and discrete GPU's. When you're just surfing the web or using office apps, it uses the integrated Intel graphics. When you want to run a game, it automatically switches to the AMD graphics. This switching can happen multiple times a second and is completely glitch free.

Under Windows, some laptops offer a similar feature, but they only do it based on a policy of whether you're connected to power or running on battery, and often times the switching has a visual glitch associated with it. This sucks when you're running on battery and want to run a game or a powerful graphics app ... you're stuck with crappy performance.

Apple has done a LOT in the area of power, which is why you can use your high end, powerful MacBookPro for 7-8 hours of real-world use, whereas a similarly powered Windows laptop will give you 3-4 hours at best.

The other consideration if you do need to run Windows apps, is the use of Parallels or Bootcamp. Both methods allow you to run Windows applications on your Mac. Bootcamp effectively turns your laptop into a Windows machine (we have some hardcore Windows users at work who bought MacBookPro's simply for the aesthetics and performance, and only run windows on it), and Parallels allows you to run Windows apps at full speed right on your Mac desktop, completely seamlessly. Best of both worlds.

Let's face it, Apple is not competing against the low end PC manufacturers. They spend a ton of money on enclosures, on high end components, on the very best LCD's, etc. You get a premium product -- along with the associated premium pricing. Obviously they're doing something right because they are growing like gangbusters (much much faster than the PC market), and this is obvious in their financials and market share capture over the past 3-4 years.

Arshad,

Yep! I wish I could somehow upgrade to the new MacBook Pro. I am curious to see how well the new AMD graphics run SolidWorks. I use BootCamp and boot into Win 7 (appropriately virus protected) to run SolidWorks. There are a lot of SolidWorks users who do the same thing. My co-workers who run Toshiba or Dell laptops just can't get over how nice the MBP LCD screen is or how cool the unit runs. The solid aluminum Unibody chassis really makes a difference.

-Jim

 

[shawn110975]

Jimbo, yeah thats the talk around town.

SSD is the fastest thing out there. but down side they only last 6-7 months.

but the speed is worth the cost.

only have your OS on the SSD and store everything else external.

I have heard guys are putting these harddrive in 15 year old laptops and making them as fast as an I7 with win7

I have not tried this yet but its amazing how fast they are.

 

[Hapa88]

Look, my only point is that government agencies do in fact use the Mac and iPhone/iPad and that over the past year or two, the growth has been amazing - and in fact much more than any other company. That was my point with the original link...

http://www.appleinsider.com/article..._mac_sales_surge_200_enterprise_grows_50.html

Which says....



I wasn't trying to imply that the majority of computers sold to gov't are from Apple.

But the recent growth rate and interest is amazing. This is one reason why Apple's market cap surpassed Microsoft.

Yes, I agree. Apple has been growing, but in 2009 the Federal Government only spent $1,281,500 on Apple contracts.
A 200% increase means they went up to $3,844,500 in 2010. That IS a significant growth for any company, but NOT significant to what the US spent at the PC based companies.

In FY2009 US spent:
$669,000,807 at IBM
$239,353,609 at Dell
$422,639,770 at HP
or $728,894,186 total at PC based companies.

$3,844,500 spent at Apple represents 0.5% of that amount even after the 200% growth.

Don't get me wrong I'm very happy with Apple's continued success and their growth. The better my stocks do (I don't own any PC based stocks), the happier I am. :smile: