manslaughter charge for nsx modifications

[nsxtasy]

It COULD be anything. What pisses me off is the fact that the media automatically condems him, and if an 85 year old grandma did the same thing in a Ford Explorer it wouldn't get any play at all even though more mass = more damage to the other guy.

Baloney. I think some of you are missing the point: The article notes that the NSX driver crossed the road into oncoming traffic (and does not condemn him at all). Assuming that he crossed the road - and I realize that is a big assumption, but that's what the article states - then the accident is indeed the NSX driver's fault. And it would probably be reported the same way in the newspaper if an 85 year old grandma did the same thing in a Ford Explorer. In fact, it would probably be reported more prominently if an 85 year old grandma did the same thing, because there has been a lot of press coverage of accidents caused by older drivers (along with some legislative efforts to require testing of older drivers).

 

[nsxbuilder]

Ken, as usual is right - mostly. If the 85 yr old in the Explorer had done it, it would have been the SUVs fault. Remember, they are single handedly destroying the earth and must be stopped!

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out, but if he was driving fast on a two lane and went wide and hit Mr Cutten's VW then he's doing some jail time as well as recovery time. Why car mods or strangers reports of bragging are in there either means he really IS a stooge or that particular reporter saw it was a shiny black sports car and felt compelled to make something of it.

That said, I was out on the "long country drive" with a bunch of you fools last year and though it wasn't demanded of me, I cut a few corners on the two lane to keep up. Unlike Bob R, there wasn't anyone IN the oncoming lane. I guess I also exceded the speed limit once or twice using N2O, wearing racing harnesses, slowed down with upgraded brakes ... parts usually found on racing cars.

-Ed
www.nsxbuilder.com

 

[kgb_agent]

Baloney. I think some of you are missing the point: The article notes that the NSX driver crossed the road into oncoming traffic (and does not condemn him at all). Assuming that he crossed the road - and I realize that is a big assumption, but that's what the article states - then the accident is indeed the NSX driver's fault. And it would probably be reported the same way in the newspaper if an 85 year old grandma did the same thing in a Ford Explorer. In fact, it would probably be reported more prominently if an 85 year old grandma did the same thing, because there has been a lot of press coverage of accidents caused by older drivers (along with some legislative efforts to require testing of older drivers).

Baloney nothing. If facts are all that is relevant, then why is HERESAY about alleged comments he made to a stranger even included? That part of the article was clearly slanted. If what mc-ca stated was correct about this road, then police and the media want to set the bias against the sportscar driver in such a manner that he was being reckless.

 

[nsxtasy]

Baloney nothing. If facts are all that is relevant, then why is HERESAY about alleged comments he made to a stranger even included?

kgb_agent,

Why do you claim "baloney nothing" and then make a comment about something that I did not even refer to in my post, while ignoring what I DID include in my post?

And why is it that the only time you post on NSXprime is to attack me and what I say?

 

[nsx_parts]

Not to preach, but...

Everyone:

Please take a breath until more FACTS of the accident are presented. In that breath, pray for the family of the person who lost his life in this accident as well as the driver who lived, and for the safety of all drivers who share the public highways. I am sure this driver did not set out to kill another in rage. The whole modifications = manslaughter rant is misconstrued from a hastily written, brief article that does not provide many facts.

As far as the physics of the accident, a few comments.

The entry angle would have huge effect as well. If the cars did not hit 100% straight on, the smaller/slower mass could have been pushed sideways a bit greatly increasing its travel as more force is used to change the direction of the car, and less to slow it down.

In addition, the 10' statement was probably taken from a witness who guessed the distance.

I hope no one in this forum ever has to live on either side of this equation. One of my good friends died in a similar accident in 1991. He was hit head on in a 79 Civic by a full size truck that crossed the line on a country road. He died on the scene at 18 years of age.

 

[tucsonsx]

After reading Andy Vecsey's post I couldn't figure out what was left wing or liberal about the newspaper article - perhaps he could enlighten me.

As usual nsxtasy has gotten precisely to the heart of the matter ( even to the point of noting that the newspaper article is all we have to go on here ). It made me recall the absolutely moronic driving done by some of the participants at NSXPO 2003 on public roads despite having 2 full track days where everyone is a big boy or girl and free to drive as fast as they want ( to the point of totalling his/her car if they like ) without hurting innocent parties. This incident was a matter of when it was going to happen not if it was going to happen.

Let's be real for a moment here - there is a undercurrent of " the traffic laws don't apply to me " and bravado among some in the NSX community that is both disturbing and more appropriate to the " Fast and Furious " crowd than to rest of us who realize that we are not the only people on the road.

Everyone should reread MikeC's first post and think long and hard about it - I'll bet Robert Rienecker is.

 

[whiteNSXs]

Be careful with the word "energy". Energy is not momentum.

Kinetic energy is one half * mass * velocity squared. To have the same momentum as the Beetle, the NSX needs to be traveling at 54% of the Beetle's speed. To have the same kinetic energy, it needs to be going at 74% of the Beetle's speed.

Right about the energy part and the formula. But wrong on the speed part. The ratio/percentage will depend on the actual speed the cars are traveling and is not a constant.
Steve

 

[BoostedMR2]

After reading Andy Vecsey's post I couldn't figure out what was left wing or liberal about the newspaper article - perhaps he could enlighten me.

As usual nsxtasy has gotten precisely to the heart of the matter ( even to the point of noting that the newspaper article is all we have to go on here ). It made me recall the absolutely moronic driving done by some of the participants at NSXPO 2003 on public roads despite having 2 full track days where everyone is a big boy or girl and free to drive as fast as they want ( to the point of totalling his/her car if they like ) without hurting innocent parties. This incident was a matter of when it was going to happen not if it was going to happen.

Let's be real for a moment here - there is a undercurrent of " the traffic laws don't apply to me " and bravado among some in the NSX community that is both disturbing and more appropriate to the " Fast and Furious " crowd than to rest of us who realize that we are not the only people on the road.

Everyone should reread MikeC's first post and think long and hard about it - I'll bet Robert Rienecker is.

[rant mode on] Talk about jumping to conclusions.

He was charged with manslaughter. That is what the article says. This means the charge against him is one in which the person's act (in this case, his act of driving the NSX) either was by its nature dangerous to human life or was done with reckless disregard for human life; and the person either knew that such conduct was a threat to the lives of others or knew of circumstances that would reasonably cause the person to foresee that such conduct might be a threat to the lives of others.

So, from that, we can deduce that the investigating officer and DA deemed the NSX driver to be at fault in the accident, and that their investigation led them to believe that the he knew or should have known he was doing something that was a threat to the lives of others.

They could have come to this conclusion a number of different ways: estimating the speed of the car based on the skid marks, if any, combined with the severity of impact, and/or witness reports, and/or statements made by either or both of the drivers (this may include the VW driver, before he passed away). Very likely, prior to filing the charges, they also undertook a preliminary forensic investigation of the NSX.

That said, the NSX driver has not yet been convicted and may be acquitted of the charges.

Maybe he had a black out behind the wheel, maybe there was a mechanical failure not obvious to the investigating officer (stuck accelerator, failed brakes, floor mat jammed under brake pedal), or maybe the NSX driver was simply driving in a reckless manner and caused the accident.

The problem with speculating is that we weren't there that fateful day, and we can't know from that article what happened, nor do we even have a comprehensive report of the events (posted speed, NSX’s speed, road and weather conditions, etc.)

The part quoted by Andrie is disturbing:

"After investigating, CHP officers determined that Rienecker had allegedly made extensive modifications to his vehicle, with items usually found on racing cars, and had made statements to a stranger regarding his driving ability and speed of his car."

However, this is just one piece of the puzzle in establishing the charges against the driver. To answer Andrie's question: "How did they know about his statements? Has the police been watching him for a while?" -- it may very well prove to be the case that the NSX driver had been charged with, and/or convicted of, related vehicular offenses or had a history of lesser vehicle code violations that led to their conclusion about the "extensive modifications." On the other hand, maybe they were just stretching to make the charges stick and the connection between his modifications to the car and the accident are tenuous at best.

While the charges brought against the NSX driver might lead one to assume his guilt (he must have been driving like all those reckless guys at the NSXPO), I think when someone has lost their life, and another person has been badly injured, it is in poor form to jump to any conclusions. That is what the legal system is for and that is the proper forum for seeing all of this play out -- not the court of public opinion based on a short, badly written newspaper blurb. [/rant mode off]

-- DavidV

 

[Lud]

Wow, that is terrible news! I remember Rob from NSXPO last year. He had the mint condition very-low-mile '96 coupe (yes, coupe) with an early prototype CTSC (from back when they still did hand welding on the manifold). It was parked out behind Comptech during the open house at their shop.

What a horrible incident for everybody involved.

 

[kgb_agent]

kgb_agent,

Why do you claim "baloney nothing" and then make a comment about something that I did not even refer to in my post, while ignoring what I DID include in my post?

And why is it that the only time you post on NSXprime is to attack me and what I say?

This is silly. So when you say "baloney" to White94 it's OK, but when I say "baloney nothing" to you I'm attacking you?

I suggest you go back and read White94's comment that you called baloney before chiming in about what I wrote. The context of his post was that the media was attempting to portray this NSX driver as a reckless, illegally-modding, law-breaking street-racer because of the car he drives but would NOT have if the cause of the SAME accident would have been an 85-yr-old SUV driver. I concur with White94.

We don't know the cause of the accident and neither do you or the newspaper. But if an OEM suspension component broke or an OEM tire blew causing the NSX to swerve into oncoming traffic, then all this background about the mods on his car or statements he made would be totally irrelevant.

I'm not going to go point/counter-point with you on this one. If you want to discuss this further PM me.

 

[MJK]

Be careful with the word "energy". Energy is not momentum.

You are correct, that was poor wording.

And it would probably be reported the same way in the newspaper if an 85 year old grandma did the same thing in a Ford Explorer. In fact, it would probably be reported more prominently if an 85 year old grandma did the same thing, because there has been a lot of press coverage of accidents caused by older drivers (along with some legislative efforts to require testing of older drivers).

Maybe in Chicago, not here. Regardless, your point is well taken and very similar to mine. They are both characterized not by facts of the accident, but by the type of car driven or in your case the age of the driver.

 

[Yellow Rose]

After reading Andy Vecsey's post I couldn't figure out what was left wing or liberal about the newspaper article - perhaps he could enlighten me.

My comment was not meant to apply to the article, rather the actions of the California authorities.

Do we know that a part malfunctioned which caused the car to change lanes? No.

Do we know if he was boosting the car with his CTSC at the time of the accident? No.

Do we know how the authorities "recorded" his comment to a passerby in a parking lot prior to the accident? No.

Do we know if DWI or DUI was a factor? No.

Was the NSXer treated in accordance with the United States constitution? No.

What on earth am I babbling about? The constitution (or Bill of Rights, I forget) provides that a person is innocent until proven guilty. In my book, somebody that is innocent need not be arrested. Simply post a bond, let him go home and return for trial, if there is one. But nooooooooo, California will incarcerate him in the mean time.

 

[SCS2k]

Not to incite flames but I remember Rob from NSXPO 2003. The comments attributed to him would not seem to be out of character but I fail to see how that would have any bearing on this case.

Unlike Andy, I think a person charged with manslaughter should be put in jail, then allowed to post bail if able. It would be especially concerning that the alleged criminal is an airline pilot and thus could easily flee jurisdiction, or the U.S. for that matter, and never appear for trial.

I do not wish to make any comments about his innocence or guilt but I can say that if my friend or family member had been in that Volkswagon I would be very angry if the driver of the car that killed him was allowed to return home and await trial.

 

[Tom239]

Right about the energy part and the formula. But wrong on the speed part. The ratio/percentage will depend on the actual speed the cars are traveling and is not a constant.
Steve

I stand by what I wrote.
If the two kinetic energies are equal:

1/2 * mnsx * vnsx^2 = 1/2 * mbeetle * vbeetle^2

vnsx^2 / vbeetle^2 = mbeelte / mnsx

taking the square root of both sides gives

vnsx / vbeetle = sqrt(mbeetle / mnsx)

 

[nsxtasy]

What on earth am I babbling about? The constitution (or Bill of Rights, I forget) provides that a person is innocent until proven guilty. In my book, somebody that is innocent need not be arrested. Simply post a bond, let him go home and return for trial, if there is one. But nooooooooo, California will incarcerate him in the mean time.

I am not a lawyer, but I know enough about the legal system to know that people are incarcerated prior to trials all the time. As part of the legal proceedings, there are bail hearings, and bail is granted (in various amounts) or denied based on the severity of the offense, the risk of flight of the accused, etc. Does that mean that people are incarcerated before they are proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (or acquitted)? Yes! That's the way our judicial system works, all the time. It's not any different in this particular case.

And Andy, in that list of "Do we know..." questions you posted, you could have added:

Do we know whether he was released from jail on bail?

And of course, the answer is NO!. The article only states that he was booked, not that he is still in jail.

So much for your charges about violation of the U.S. Constitution...

As for these claims about irresponsible driving at NSXPO 2003, this is the first I'm hearing of them, and the event took place six months ago. The NSX Club of America, which holds the event, is committed to the maximum safety during all the drives which take place as part of the event. Various measures for group drives have been implemented to ensure this at the past three NSXPOs, including the appointment of leaders of groups of cars with strict instructions for maximum safety at all times, as well as similar instructions to all participants. I would suggest that anyone observing unsafe behavior could have done something to prevent it by reporting it at that time, rather than six months later. I also suspect that any unsafe behavior may have taken place by participants who were engaged in individual drives on their own, which are not under the club's or the event's supervision.

 

[dgaetano]

I always used the quote someone made on here "I figure in my NSX, I'm only slightly safer than I am on a motorcycle."

In my personal experience that is far from true. I've totaled an NSX (don't ask, I don't want to talk about it). I walked away without a scratch. The car is amazing, I imagine you're safer in an NSX than you are in most cars. I don't even want to think about what would have happened had the same accident taken place with my bike. The performance of the NSX during the accident played a major part in my decision to replace it with another one.

 

[Yellow Rose]

And Andy, in that list of "Do we know..." questions you posted, you could have added:

Do we know whether he was released from jail on bail?

You are absolutely correct.....except I simply did not think about that question. Mea culpa.

And of course, the answer is NO!. The article only states that he was booked, not that he is still in jail.

So much for your charges about violation of the U.S. Constitution...

Okay smarty-pants, let's put this in perspective. Remember the OJ Simpson case? He was not immediately arrested after the crime. Same California, but now double standards to arrest the NSX pilot immediately, on what could be an accidental death vs an intentional death?

 

[TigerNSX]

Please... let's not criticize or interrogate each other.

All I want to say is to drive carefully.

Please do not drive

1) under the influence of alcohol,
2) while talking on the phone
3) if you are sleepy or extremely tired
4) if you are going to speed dangerously.

 

[nsxtasy]

let's put this in perspective. Remember the OJ Simpson case? He was not immediately arrested after the crime. Same California, but now double standards to arrest the NSX pilot immediately, on what could be an accidental death vs an intentional death?

What is your point? You claimed that the treatment of the NSX driver runs counter to the U.S. Constitution, but it's no different than that of thousands of other jail inmates (and here I am intentionally drawing a distinction between a "jail", where those awaiting prosecution are incarcerated, vs a "prison", where those who have been convicted are incarcerated). Is your point now to object to the special treatment that celebrities receive in our judicial system? If so, I'm not sure that it is particularly relevant to this specific incident.

I wonder if an 85-year-old ex-NFL player driving an NSX would get different treatment from an 85-year-old ex-airline pilot driving a Bronco...

 

[NSX-Racer]

dgaetano wrote:
In my personal experience that is far from true. I've totaled an NSX (don't ask, I don't want to talk about it). I walked away without a scratch. The car is amazing, I imagine you're safer in an NSX than you are in most cars. I don't even want to think about what would have happened had the same accident taken place with my bike. The performance of the NSX during the accident played a major part in my decision to replace it with another one.

That could have been my post - been there, done all that too...

Maybe I should add that in my case another driver was injured because my car broke out during braking - I still don't guess it was my fault and I had no legal problems afterwards. If there hadn't been middle rails on the autobahn I could have caused a similar accident as described in this thread.

Who would have been guilty then?

 

[robr]

Most of you know about my somewhat recent criminal case (copyright infringement of software, no $$ involved), I was indicted in a non public forum (this is normal, I believe it was Rudy Giuliani who said that he could get any jury to indict a ham sandwich, it's that easy to get an indictment which just means there are enough facts to move forward with pressing criminal charges).

I was then arrested by the FBI (a nice 8:15am surprise), cuffed, taken into Boston to the US Marshalls, fingerprinted, etc. Went in front of a judge where prosecution argued to keep me off computers and this is where they'd have a chance to argue that I might be a flight risk if they so chose and not to grant me bail at all. I was released on $50,000 bail about 8 hours after getting arrested to await trial. Meanwhile, the FBI cleaned out my house and left with 30+ boxes of my belongings including clothing, bills, CDs, DVDs, remote controls, calculator, power supplies, etc.

Meanwhile, three months later, 16 other people were indicted in my case. None of them were ever arrested, none of them ever had their homes searched or anything confiscated. The whole point of this post is to demonstrate people are treated differently all the time and that it's basically, it's up to the authorities and prosecutor how to handle each defendent (or soon-to-be defendent).

 

[Brian2by2]

Prolly b/c it says he was taken away with major injuries.

Good call!! DUH!!! lol

But still...i woulda thought he'd die before the VW driver would...seatbelt or not! We have nothing up front to protect us! No solid mass at all really.

 

[Yellow Rose]

What is your point? Is your point now to object to the special treatment that celebrities receive in our judicial system?

My point is that California is too quick to react, by booking the driver on an accidental death. If the following doesn't emphasize my point, I don't know what will.

In Virginia a man accidentally ran over a four year old boy with a riding lawn mower, killing the toddler. Although the incident is under investigation, no charges have been filed. This is on CNN's website.

In both cases the offender feels strong remorse, I'm sure. Yet in one case the "killer" is booked and the other is not.

 

[MJK]

OK, I have honestly tried to leave this thread alone. Against my better judgement, here I am.

This is silly. So when you say "baloney" to White94 it's OK, but when I say "baloney nothing" to you I'm attacking you?

I am sure KGB is waiting for an answer to this, and I am as well. This is even more true after the comment below.

Originally posted by NSXtasy
I wonder if an 85-year-old ex-NFL player driving an NSX would get different treatment from an 85-year-old ex-airline pilot driving a Bronco...

I can't intelligently speak to that, but then again that wasn't really a serious question was it?

I can say that in my experience a person who interacts with others in an intelligent, honest and respectful manner tends to get different treatment than someone who is sarcastic, rude and confrontational. Generally, I try to be nice until I am frustrated enough to just walk away. Speaking of which, this is my last contribution to this thread.

 

[myf16]

As for these claims about irresponsible driving at NSXPO 2003, this is the first I'm hearing of them, and the event took place six months ago.

Ditto. The long country drive was led by one of the safest drivers I know, and the briefing made clear that safety was paramount. There is no excuse for unsafe impatience in catching up with the rest of the group. They will wait for you if necessary, so you don't need to compromise safety to catch up. On the last drive I led, we slowed periodically to regroup and it worked out great for everyone.

As to the accident in question, crossing the center line on blind curves probably bothers me more than any other driving behavior. Some people like to drive slowly and use the entire road, others drive quickly and stay on the right side. These two groups of people annoy each other, but both groups can agree that the combination of speeding and crossing the center line on blind curves is unacceptable. If you cross the line, do it where you can verify that no other traffic is present. When you come to a blind curve, use the brake pedal. That's what it's there for.

Expect to be surprised, and enter the curve at a speed which keeps some cornering power in reserve for emergency braking. If you are in a group, that surprise is probably most likely to come in the form of the car in front of you sliding. Therefore maintaining a 3-second or more separation at all times is even more important than limiting your entry speed into blind turns.