no power, possible timing belt replacment problem?

[warrenw]

Need a little help here.

Ray.K has a '91 NSX with less than 900 miles on it. Yes that number is correct. The car has been in storage since purchased 20 years ago. Ray.K took the car in for service before putting the car on the road. Top of the list of service was the timing belt, water pump.
So now that the dealer returned the car. It has a rough idle, runs rich and has no power.
My guess is a poor timing belt install. But I am no expert on this..
Anyone out there with experience of timing belt replacement issues? Can you identify the symptoms? Is it possible to miss one tooth on the belt and the engine still run? I have read that the rear exhaust cam is easy to miss one tooth on a belt change...
Here is the forum thread with more details:
http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150526&page=2

 

[angus]

Seems to make sense that would be the issue, unfortunately it's at least an hour or so to pull the valve covers and confirm.

I would take it back immediately.

 

[sparky]

from memory ... the service manual actually warns about exactly this in the timing belt replacement section - a tooth out of place is quite likely IMO (or two?)

 

[pgilliam1]

I did exactly this when I replaced my TB/WP and those were the exact symptoms. I was 2 teeth off on the rear cam. I only ran the engine for about 30 seconds and turned it off immediately. No damage to the engine after I reinstalled the TB correctly. I really see no need to replace the water pump or tensioner after only 900 miles, but I would replace the AC and alternator belts.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

If it ran fine before it was disassembled, seems kind of obvious, but to be sure, pull the valve covers and check the timing. Honestly it sure sounds like it is off a tooth.

The challange here is if you have never done one, and at this stage of life for the NSX, even Acura Tech's may not have ever seen one, it is a little tricky to get it right.

Regards,
LarryB

Need a little help here.

Ray.K has a '91 NSX with less than 900 miles on it. Yes that number is correct. The car has been in storage since purchased 20 years ago. Ray.K took the car in for service before putting the car on the road. Top of the list of service was the timing belt, water pump.
So now that the dealer returned the car. It has a rough idle, runs rich and has no power.
My guess is a poor timing belt install. But I am no expert on this..
Anyone out there with experience of timing belt replacement issues? Can you identify the symptoms? Is it possible to miss one tooth on the belt and the engine still run? I have read that the rear exhaust cam is easy to miss one tooth on a belt change...
Here is the forum thread with more details:
http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150526&page=2

 

[warrenw]

Larry, Angus, others, thanks for chiming in..

Yes, just because the dealership says ACURA on the sign, doesn't mean they have worked on or even seen an NSX before! With the amount of documentation around this procedure, I am somewhat surprised this can still happen.


Seems like the tech missed the "advance of the rear exhaust cam by a half a tooth" instruction.

 

[angus]

I have Pm'd Ray about it but wanted to make my feelings more known, I have seen too many cases where the dealer swears they did no wrong and will cover their tracks if they can -

I think someone needs to step in here and help - remove the valve covers and try to insert 5mm pin punches into the cams to align them - this is the easy way to tell and I have seen Acura techs that do not even know about this - or do it.

I have seen even more who would not properly read the service manual while doing a job like this.

To paraphrase Larry - there are not that many Acura techs who have done the NSX timing belt, and even less who have done it many times, this leads to a high risk of getting it wrong - years ago I did one wrong - but I knew right away and fixed it right away before returning it to the owner...

 

[Larry Bastanza]

1. I think someone needs to step in here and help - remove the valve covers and try to insert 5mm pin punches into the cams to align them - this is the easy way to tell and I have seen Acura techs that do not even know about this - or do it.

2. years ago I did one wrong - but I knew right away and fixed it right away before returning it to the owner...

1. Agreed

2. Me Too!! Mine

 

[Ray.K]

I just got off the phone with the dealership and great news! They're willing to take it back and have a look at it. Hopefully we can get this power issue sorted out.

 

[angus]

I just got off the phone with the dealership and great news! They're willing to take it back and have a look at it. Hopefully we can get this power issue sorted out.

As I have already cautioned - be sure that they only check the cam timing first and have them show you the marks on the crank pulley aligned tot he lower timing cover and the pin punches installed in the cams (4 of them) - print the pages off from the manual and bring them yourself - hang around outside the service bay if you have to -

I have seen too many cases where they say - "oh ya it was something else", then they will fix the cam timing and chrge you to fix 10 other things that were not wrong.

 

[stevieray122854]

This is precisely why the dealer here (Gary Force) will NEVER see mine. Their only NSX tech was Barn Man (Barney) and now that he's out on his own, they have no one that's even remotely familiar with the car.

They don't see my Legend either but that's another story...

 

[NSXclear]

I have seen too many cases where they say - "oh ya it was something else", then they will fix the cam timing and chrge you to fix 10 other things that were not wrong.

+1

Or they will blame YOU somehow for the damage that THEY caused:

I needed my tires dismounted so I could repolish my rims. I took it to Discount Tires and I paid to have them dismounted. As I was watching the tech work on my tires through the service glass, I could see him with a worried look on his face and frantically looking around. The manager walks into the customer service area, and tells me that the tire I brought in was already damaged and "already" had a 3 inch puncture in the sidewall.

I started to laugh and told him "nice try. I was watching your tech through the window." Additionally, the manager saw the tires on my car 3 hours earlier that day when I drove the car to the shop. It would be impossible for me to drive around with a 3 inch puncture in the sidewall. And for the tech not to have notice before removing the tires.

The manager was embarrassed how silly his excuse was, and told me that he would have a new tire for me the next day. He said that he couldn't mount them for me since it cost him $400 for the tire (Michelin Pilot Sport 18 inches).

It does make me wonder, how many unsuspecting customers really believed fictious excuses for their shop mistakes.

 

[Ray.K]

Ok they gave me an update on the status of the car.

They rechecked the timing marks with the 5mm pins and one the cams (?) or valves (?) was stuck closed while the other 5 were open. They re-did something to get that one open and that seemed to allow the engine to regain some power and fix the rough idling of the car. I never asked if they took off and re-did the timing belt.

Not all good news however; the car still isn't back to 100% power they say. Some possible problems they are looking into is a clogged exhaust (due to condensation-rust over the years), vacuum leaks, and some other one I forgot. The fuel filter and thermometer will also be changed but are lower on the priority list.

 

[Daedalus]

one the cams (?) or valves (?) was stuck closed while the other 5 were open. They re-did something to get that one open and that seemed to allow the engine to regain some power and fix the rough idling of the car. Some possible problems they are looking into is a clogged exhaust (due to condensation-rust over the years), vacuum leaks, and some other one I forgot.

Valve stuck closed? Seriously? What shop is this?

I have seen too many cases where they say - "oh ya it was something else", then they will fix the cam timing and chrge you to fix 10 other things that were not wrong.

Bingo.