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P2F Racing Bladed Sway Bar For All Years

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26 January 2001
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Location
San Diego, CA
Last Batch Closing Out Price $1.2K Shipped(US/CAN) - Bladed Sway Bars

Friends,

We are offering a "higher tech" sway bars(aka anti-roll bar ARB 2.0) than OEM/Dali/CT style as a set to have better control of the roll stiffness. We have received PM here and from our website of many questions so we will answer them here to make it less confusing.

- What was your design criteria based upon?
OEM Anti-Roll Bar Data
diameter x wall thickness (all units are mm)
ModelFrontRear
1991 NSX18.3 x ?17.5 x ?
1993 NSX-R21.0 x 2.617.5 x 2.3
1995 NSX-R21.0 x 2.619.1 x ?
1997 NSX18.3 x ?17.5 x ?
1997 NSX-S and Zanardi18.3 x 3.019.1 x 3.0
1997 NSX S-Zero18.3 x 3.019.1 x 3.0
2002 NSX-R22.2 x 4.017.5 x 2.3

<tbody>
</tbody>

Then we crunching some numbers followed by FEA analysis and made a prototype for track testing and now its ready for the public.

-Why 4130 not mild steel?

We are more familiar working with 4130. Pricewise, not a big difference. It has about the same modulus as mild steel and 4130 has higher yield. They are more sexy than mild steel. Mild steel is perfect for a Civic or Integra application, 4130 is more fitting on an NSX.

- Can I buy just the front bar?

Not at this batch. We designed this to work as a complete package and to offer just the front is like offering a BBK for the front but no rear. We may consider offer "made to order front or rear" AFTER this batch is sold but its really not the right approach. We believe in doing it right or don't do it at all. Why spend your hard earn money and only get half the result right?

- Why are these bars 3-4x more expensive compare to whats on the market?

Excellent question. These are not like the typical sway bars on the market for any car which have been around since 1960 so the manufacturing process is mature with a CNC tube bender in large qty and then drill and powder coat. There are no special treatment needed since most of them are made from mild steel. The bladed type sway bar takes a lot more steps to make it right. It involves CNC milling, lathe, heat treat, Rockwell, nickel, welding, etc.

- Are there any benefit if I don't track my car?

Yes. You can certainly feel the car is more planted during a turn BUT, you can also adjust the stiffness and corner balancing of all 4 corners independently by turning the blade and the endlinks in different position and that is done very easily without changing to a large dia. bar with the old method which is really a PITA to do being so long and twisty. This is the first mod you should do if you want to increase your cornering speed not by install heavier springs which hurts the ride comfort and the grip.

- What’s wrong with the Dali/CT bars? They are adjustable too aren't they?

Correct. BUT with one critical detail. The angle of the endlinks to bar is meant to be 90 deg. at all time to each other to have the proper geometry(check any OEM sway bars, the endlinks are small in diameter because the load path acting on it is at 90 deg all the time thus it will not bend) The more of that angle is askewed, it will tend to bind and bend the endlinks on the street or on the track. A set of new endlinks from TiDave or SOS is ~$200 per bar. If you don’t have this problem, meaning your are not cornering hard enough to cause that problem but the load path will have a X & Y components not just Y(90deg) to the bar like the oem. The geometry of other bars on the market is not correct when the angle is not 90deg and to use larger rodends to take care the extra load is blacksmith and add unnecessary weight.

- Are they noisy? Who made the endlinks?

No noisy at all with either the poly bushings or with the optional solid alum bushings. We have over 5000 miles with no noise on solid bushings. Not saying they never will make noise.
We use aerospace quality rod ends from Aurora and all the spacers are alum hard anodized.

- What is the dia. of the rear bar and wall thk and how would the car handles compare to OEM?

The dia. is 3/4" w/ .120 wall on 4130. At mid stiff, it will behave similar to the Zanardi bar but w/ approx. 25-30% +/- stiffness adjustment with our blade. Therefor, you can change the handling behavior of the car very quickly so one should be very careful when trying out different setting at a safe location with minimal traffic.

- Can I feel the difference on the street/normal driving?

yes you can. You will feel the difference every time you make a turn especially at freeway speed. So this is NOT just for people who track their cars often but people who like to have less roll without increasing their spring rate which often cause a stiffer/bumpy ride like a ricer.

- What kind of bushings come with this kit?

it comes with 1" poly bushings w/ grease. We will have solid alum. bushings avail. for extra mojo stiff. It will be ~$50/pair.

- Would this price stays the same for this batch?

Probably not. We are setting the intro price near cost NOT because its not a quality part BUT its first time this part is made avail. on Prime as we want the early adopters to experience what a race-bred bladed ARB is like 1st and provide feedback for those who cares more about better handling but still on the fence. We have been on Prime for a long time and its a small "family" affair. By signing up now, you can lock in at the current price until we decided its time to raise it.

- Would I need to change my current set up?

That is a loaded question. The short answer is it depends as all our cars are set up differently. But try this bar and play with the settings and see how the car behaves 1st in a safe environment before changing your springs and comp/rebound settings.


Sign Up list:

GregTT has done a write up on his impression of the bars.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...-2-Flag-Bladed-Anti-Roll-Bar-Review-amp-Offer

See www.tarett.com/ for Porsche 996/997 and provenwicked.com for late model Camaro for price and quality comparison.

The front bars are complete and both bars will be ready to ship approx. 2-3 weeks @ $1,250 + shipping and a full deposit is required. You can have your bank to mail a check our bank at Wells Fargo to avoid the pesky Paypal 3% fee. Your bank should have this service for free. You MUST agree to our Terms and Policy before you order as this is for OFF ROAD USE ONLY.

The process is simple: From your bank Bill Pay tab > Set up a New Payee (Pole 2 Flag Racing LLC, 9666 Businesspark Ave #110 , San Diego, CA 92131 (858)952-1038 > you bank will mail a check to us with no fees to you or us. Once that is complete, we don't need to wait until the check is cleared to ship your parts.

For those who wants to buy rod end boot to keep dirt away, you can buy direct from sealsit.com and the PN is RERS 2. You need 4 per bar and they don't offer any discount.

Below are a couple of past threads that may answer any questions you have.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showth...-Bar-(ARB)-2-0

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showth...hlight=ARB+2.0

Here is a good read from the Wiki section about sway bars. In short, roll stiffness should be controlled by the sway bars not more springs. Our bars are much more refined/advanced and will provide better, finer control of roll stiffness and much quicker adjustability w/o affecting the end-link geometry.

http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Sway_and_Strut_Bars

For those who wants to buy rod end boot to keep dirt away, you can buy direct from sealsit.com and the PN is RERS 2. You need 4 per bar and they don't offer any discount.

1. Always4Sale
2. YF-19(Paid in Full- canada)
3. Greg-TT
4. Stuntman
5. whrdnsx
6. jsl757
7. jrnsx
8. 91nsx85crx
 
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http://www.sealsit.com/rod-end-boots.html

I'm just curious on the seals, I'm assuming that the boots that are needed are for metric sizes not standard sizes, also is the boot installation tool required? Also it seems as though they only come in a packs of 6.
 
There are limited space here so all the installed pictures and instructions are on our website under Tips.

http://pole2flagracing.com/install-shopstips.html

The PN for the boot is RERS-2 as our rodends are 12mm. Both the metric and std size are the same AFAI can tell. They don't offer any discount and only comes in a 6-pack.

We have yet purchase any boot from Sealsit but Jeff at Carbon 6 uses the same boot for so you might want to ask him if the tool is needed. I don't think you do. They should be pretty stretchy.
 
These look much easier to install than my Dali bars. Do you have a price for the set? Sorry if I missed it.
 
its $1500 per set (frt & rear). I finally updated our website w/ the latest info this morning.

Mega Dittos Davee! They are so much easier to install than the one piece type. You have to fight to remove it cuz everything is in the way and fight to put the new one on and by them your arms are sore especially without a lift. THEN, after a few beers, you have to fight to get the endlinks to reach the stiffest hole and its not 90 deg to the bar but hope they are can reach.....by that time you are done with cursing and lucky with knuckles not showing red running down.

Oh, One more thing, after Ramon removed my one piece bar(s), took him less than an hour to install the new bladed ARB and adjust them the I wanted by turning the blades. Its not only very cool rice but you can also feel the difference on the street and will take just a few minutes to change the settings to make the car either oversteer/understeer more or less. 5000 miles later, its still as quiet as a church mouse and everything is still tight. Ramon knows what he is doing.

The one piece bar is very 1960(not that there is anything wrong with that) and our bars are more refined. After buying all the high end adjustable dampers, springs, sticky shoes, lightweight wheels etc. for our worthy cars, then not having an ideal way to adjust the roll stiffness except using stiff springs and askewed sway bar angles are a real shame. Not to mention it will ride like a ricer not a racer. Some don't mind cuz they have "Billy J. like" mad skills to set quick times but it certainly is not maximizing what you could have for a more ideal chassis set up...until now:wink:.

If all these mumbo jumbo talk don't make any sense to some, look at it as having a multiple bars in one and you are 4 wheel independently adjustable for corner balancing.
 
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Paid in full. Thanks for making such a nice product that offers a lot of flexibility. Too stiff or loose, no problem, just twist the blade!
 
Exactly:wink: Andre. As you know, this is the proper way to control roll not using stiffer springs. In addition, the geometry stays ideal between full stiff and full soft unlike the one-piece bar that will bind and bend if the endlink-to-bar angle is not 90deg.
 
Bravo for making bladed bars for the NSX. Bladed bars are extremely complex and much more time consuming to make than a simple bent-tube bar. You're offering them at a great price point since a FRONT ONLY bladed bar for an E9X M3 goes for $2,400.

Unlike the M3, the NSX has very limited room and extremely short swaybar endlinks. This makes it often impossible to use all of the different holes in most multi-hole swaybars since the endlinks will bind, bend, break, or bend/break your lower control arm's tabs. The best solution is a bladed bar since the distance of the lever arm is the same and the endlink angle can be optimized. Plus bladed bars are trick, high-tech, and super easy to adjust.


You said the rear bar is: "3/4" w/ .120 wall on 4130. At mid stiff, it will behave similar to the Zanardi bar but w/ approx. 25-30% +/- stiffness adjustment with our blade."

*What's the diameter/wall thickness of the front bar and how does it compare to the NSX-R's front bar?
 
1)...Bladed bars are extremely complex and much more time consuming to make than a simple bent-tube bar. You're offering them at a great price point since a FRONT ONLY bladed bar for an E9X M3 goes for $2,400.

2)....since the endlinks will bind, bend, break, or bend/break your lower control arm's tabs. The best solution is a bladed bar since the distance of the lever arm is the same and the endlink angle can be optimized. Plus bladed bars are trick, high-tech, and super easy to adjust.

3).....You said the rear bar is: "3/4" w/ .120 wall on 4130. At mid stiff, it will behave similar to the Zanardi bar but w/ approx. 25-30% +/- stiffness adjustment with our blade."

4)*What's the diameter/wall thickness of the front bar and how does it compare to the NSX-R's front bar?

Hola Billy J.,
Got your PM but I will answer the questions above here the best I can.

1) you're absolutely correct. It took more time to design, analyze, & test much more than the bent-tube bar. The blades are simply undamped so there were some "2nd-dary harmonics in more than one-plane" that we had to dial it out. At one time we were wondering if we made a business mistake going this route knowing the cost-conscience-end-users maybe not able to afford this part but the engineer side of us won so we compromised to offer this at a extremely low margin so "25 of the family of the NSX on Prime" can experience what a bladed, race car inspired, higher tech sway bar feels like at different setting easily.

We probably won't/should't be able to make more of this bars at this price point, otherwise, we won't be around much longer:wink:. It has been a long time since our Nissan GTP days and now we are having fun again developing parts that are high value. Its tough to do business in CA as the man keep beating us down so we have to out-smart the man.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-1...rt-racing-blade-style-front-sway-bar-kit.aspx

It does look like their bar is made from mild steel (not that matters THAT much, but 4130 does have higher UTS and we need all the help we can get for the NSX frt. just saying). No heat treat needed.
The blade look like is from Genesis Technologies w/ black oxide? at almost $360/ea., thats one reason the complete ARB is $2400
Your M3 MUST have a dry sump in order to use this bar. Well, no comments needed here. To have a dry sump is one thing but not able to lower the CG would be a bigger shame.
Their endlinks look like a CNC piece which is overkill & too expensive as aerospace quality Aurora will suffice.
The ad saz "infinitely" adjustable but the picture clearly show 6-positions....probably a typo.

http://www.hrpworld.com/store/defau...hnologies-adjustable-sway-bar-blade-arms.html

2) We personally know/seen half dozen bent aftermarket endlinks. Its more due to the askewed angle causing unwanted force more than the endlinks themselves. To use bigger endlinks is simply blacksmith and add unnecessary weight and cost. This angle will cause REIB(rod end in bending) which is a big no-no in racecar design and its an important detail easy to miss. Some cares, most do not. The bladed ARB does not have this problem therefore, removing another variable in the chassis tuning/over/understeer gremlins. You simply can not dial this out with a one-piece bar and the side benefit of setting/balancing each corner. This is a lot easier to adjust than the coilover and its easy to correct as well.

3) FWIW, we bought 7/8" dia. 4130 bars and our FEA data saz ok but during tracking testing, we started at mid stiff on Greg TT SC 2.3 lit Whipple on NT-01 and it was not to his liking at BW, we set it to full soft, he felt better but still too much then we realized we were too aggressive with the dia., but more importantly, the cross section of the bar is too much not just the dia. thus going to a 3/4" dia. at .120 wall will be much better. We FEA the Zanardi bar to get an rough idea so our bar can have ~25-30% +/- instead of a fixed number so "some" folks can turn the NSX into a drift car:) if they want to.

4)Attached is the FEA of the frt at 1" and .200 wall. The load we applied to get an idea of the displacement. As you know, this depends on the wheel rate, motion ratio,etc. so its a guide and the biggest Dia. bar can fit the front of the NSX is limited to 1" otherwise major surgery are required.
As you can see, the displacement is straight but in real life, its not that linear and one simply can't "machine the blade to make it thinner" for more displacement as it will be very drastic and dangerous for the target market.

*Note - we have seen many designs of the bladed bar and we can't say one is better than the other but with our manufacturing resources and know-how, qty, coupled with ease to manufacture & adjustability, past experience, and price point, we have chosen this "clamp" design which works well. Technically our bar is "infinitely" adjustable but it takes a Pro to feel the different settings at a small increment. As for most people, you can feel it at full stiff, mid stiff and full soft and that is 3-bar in one. I am sure you can feel it between full stiff and midd stiff and so forth and that would be 5-bars in one.
 
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^Wow. Very impressive. It's great to see this much engineering going into products for the NSX.

So your bars are:

Front: 1" diameter, and .200 wall thickness
Rear: 3/4" diameter, and .120 wall thickness

You said your rear bar at the middle setting (angle) is similar to the Zanardi rear, and has the ability to go 25-30% stiffer or softer. *How does your front bar compare to say the commonly used 2002+ NSX-R front swaybar?

I'm really happy to hear your testing went in the direction it did (for the rear) since the NSX does not need that stiff of a rear swaybar. I currently run a Zanardi rear bar because I like the shape and packaging of it better than the stock 92 NSX bar (your bar has the same shape), and because i'm running a wider tire than the stock 245 rears.

Swaybars have a huge effect on the roll stiffness and balance (over/understeer) of a car and are more useful and easier to dial in the handling of your car than springs are. Since your bars have this much range in stiffness and are that easy to adjust, and there was this much thought and proper engineering that went in to them, I'd have to say these are by far the nicest swaybars made for the NSX and I think I'm going to have to have one of these bars....
 
It's great to see this much engineering going into products for the NSX.

Front: 1" diameter, and .200 wall thickness
Rear: 3/4" diameter, and .120 wall thickness

You said your rear bar at the middle setting (angle) is similar to the Zanardi rear, and has the ability to go 25-30% stiffer or softer. *How does your front bar compare to say the commonly used 2002+ NSX-R front swaybar?

I'm really happy to hear your testing went in the direction it did (for the rear) since the NSX does not need that stiff of a rear swaybar.

I currently run a Zanardi rear bar because I like the shape and packaging of it better than the stock 92 NSX bar (your bar has the same shape), and because i'm running a wider tire than the stock 245 rears.

Swaybars have a huge effect on the roll stiffness and balance (over/understeer) of a car and are more useful and easier to dial in the handling of your car than springs are.

Since your bars have this much range in stiffness and are that easy to adjust, and there was this much thought and proper engineering that went in to them, I'd have to say these are by far the nicest swaybars made for the NSX and I think I'm going to have to have one of these bars....

You have PM at FXMDBilly. All the little things matter as you know and it does make a difference. We can't compete with high tech ARB 3.0 like the 12C or the magnetic dampers so we use better physics and this is the best analog ARB money can buy. If the NSX weren't such a worthy car, we would not bother making parts for a 25 yr old car. Thats all.

We were shocked to see some of the well known JDM blades that are twice as expensive as ours but the blades were not plated so it was all rusty AND the surface finish were poor so its perfect for stress risers as the blade does flex under load. As such, we were not sure what type of steel that blade is made of but at least they used steel not something else. On top of that, the endlinks were very cheezy Grainger $5 type.

Front: 1" diameter, and .200 wall thickness
Rear: 3/4" diameter, and .120 wall thickness
Yes these are the final dim. of our bars. 11/16" is not avail. from Tube service so we had to use 3/4" at .120 to get the effect we want at mid stiff.

As far as compare to the NSX-R bar frt, we ran some numbers(we don't have one at hand) and at mid stiff, its about the same as ours. BUT, its probably some kinda of 10xx material not 4130. Without doing a load rater test, there is no way to know 100%.

We were a bit too aggro of the rear at first. Now we have a load of 7/8 tubing looking for a home. Too bad its too beefy for the harness bar.

Ditto, bladed bars are much easier to adjust compare to coilovers settings. It took Nick/Ramon more time to remove the OEM bars than installing and setup our bars.

We'll put your name on the list:wink:
 
More Qs:

- What kind of bushing does it come with this kit?


it comes with 1" poly bushings in red w/ grease. We will have grease-able solid alum. bushings avail. soon for extra mojo stiff. It will be ~$50/pair. Yes, you can feel the difference even on the street.

-Do you require 28 deposits before this goes ahead?

No, we already committed and paid in full 1st as we believe in this part so it will ship in ~2wks as deposits are complete. The rear bars are almost ready.

- Would this price stays the same for this batch?
Probably not. We are setting the intro price near cost NOT because its not a quality part BUT its first time this part is made avail. on Prime as we want the early adopters to experience what a race-bred bladed ARB is like 1st and provide feedback for those who cares more about better handling but still on the fence. We have been on Prime for a long time and its a small "family" affair. By signing up now, you can lock in at the current price until we decided its time to raise it.

- Would I need to change my current set up?
That is a loaded question. The short answer is it depends as all our cars are set up differently. But try this bar and play with the settings and see how the car behaves 1st in a safe environment before changing your springs and comp/rebound settings.


Sign Up list:
1. Always4Sale
2. YF-19(Paid in Full- canada)
3. Greg-TT
4. Stuntman
5. whrdnsx
6. jsl757
 
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Put me down for a full set.
More Qs:


- What kind of bushing does it come with this kit?


it comes with 1" poly bushings in red w/ grease. We will have grease-able solid alum. bushings avail. soon for extra mojo stiff. It will be ~$50/pair. Yes, you can feel the difference even on the street.

-Do you require 28 deposits before this goes ahead?

No, we already committed and paid in full 1st as we believe in this part so it will ship in ~2wks as deposits are complete. The rear bars are almost ready.

- Would this price stays the same for this batch?
Probably not. We are setting the intro price near cost NOT because its not a quality part BUT its first time this part is made avail. on Prime as we want the early adopters to experience what a race-bred bladed ARB is like 1st and provide feedback for those who cares more about better handling but still on the fence. We have been on Prime for a long time and its a small "family" affair. By signing up now, you can lock in at the current price until we decided its time to raise it.

- Would I need to change my current set up?
That is a loaded question. The short answer is it depends as all our cars are set up differently. But try this bar and play with the settings and see how the car behaves 1st in a safe environment before changing your springs and comp/rebound settings.


Sign Up list:
1. Always4Sale
2. YF-19(Paid in Full- canada)
3. Greg-TT
4. Stuntman
5. whrdnsx
6. jsl757
7. Jrnsx
 
Payment sent for the sway bars.

I have 4 extra Seals-it RERS 2 rod end boots if somebody wants to split a set with me.
 
Thx jsl. the boots are a very nice/necessary addition to protect the $$$ Aurora. too bad Seals-it won't offer any discount or ideal qty size.:frown:
The poly bushings will arrive in a day/two and we are geared to ship this wkend thus the intro price is closed.
Thx you all.....post feedback/impression are welcome for all to read.:wink:
 
Payment sent for the sway bars.

I have 4 extra Seals-it RERS 2 rod end boots if somebody wants to split a set with me.

Where are you located, I am interested in the seals and boots.
 
Where are you located, I am interested in the seals and boots.

Northern California - the seals have been shipped but I don't have them yet. I'll sell them for what I paid plus shipping (roughly $11 plus shipping for 2 seals).

I don't want to clutter up this thread so pm me if your interested. :)
 
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Can't wait to get these in.
 
Waiting for the poly bushings to arrived:redface:. Ordered 1.5 wks ago.:confused: Should be here next day or two. Everything else is ready. Will provide tracking number thru PM.

- - - Updated - - -

thanks for all 8 of the early adopters trusting our product. Please write a review when you get a chance.
This GB is closed.
 
We had more question regarding this product.

I received the bladed swaybars today and they look awesome, I'm excited to install them and try them at the track next weekend. I had a question regarding the blade end, 2 of them came with a tapered bushing (don't know the exact name for it) should all 4 blades have this piece?

Here is a link showing what I received today.
http://www.rarecarsforsaleblog.com/w...e2flagsway.jpg


Jeff, didn't think sway bars can look this good in picture. ;-)
1) the ones with the small taper bushings are for the front in order to have the correct clearance and geometry.
2) the rears do not need the small bushings. Otherwise, it will interfere with the drive shaft included angle. We have instruction/pictures on our website. Take a look...it will help.

3) Many bolts are coated with anti-seize so be careful. the black-oxide bolts are the best we can source so in time, it might rust if exposed to moisture so use ZEP ProductMetal Protectant Rust Control Barrier

Package: 12-20oz cans/case | SKU: R22701

You can get them at Grainger

4) all the blades are the same and your Seal-it boots look very nice. I need to get some.
5) the tightening sequence of the 3 SS bolts on the bar end block should be snug them in series 1st and tighten them again in the same sequence so the blade shaft will seat properly. This is an important installation detail. The front blade should be set perpendicular to the bar end to be Full Stiff. If you set the blade perpendicular to the rod end, it will not be full stiff.

plz do a write up when you get a chance so folks can believe this is the best ARB to get, not the one-piece 1960 variety.
post that picture too. It works as nice as it looks IMO.
Thx for believing in us.
Tim

Jerry,
yes that is the boot seal you need BUT, the price shows $25 for qty of 1, not sure if its 1 package of 6 or just 1. better double ck with the Seal-it.
 
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I want to write a quick review of my experience with these P2F Bladed Sway bars.

I received these sway bars two weeks ago and was very impressed with the quality of the product, everything felt super solid and the finish of the bars were excellent. You could tell that the design was well thought out and P2F didn't skimp on the quality of end links and rod ends.

The install was straight forward and I was able to remove my previous Comptech sways and install the P2F versions in an afternoon working at a leisurely pace. P2F has provided documentation on their site but it would be best to have a service manual to find all the torque settings needed to complete the installation.

I was able to take my car out to Laguna Seca this past weekend and the bars made a considerable improvement with body roll and "feel" under cornering. The car felt more solid than my previous Comptech sways and I had more control in the faster corners like T5 and coming down T9.

Overall I am very happy with these bladed sway bars, they are a little more expensive than a standard sway bar but they are very high quality and the ability to "tune" them is a cool feature.

Jeff
 
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