Profiling

[raven]

I had a recent experience that for some reason still continues to irk me.* I was leaving a 50th birthday party of a good friend's wife.* I stopped at a gas station close to the house to fill up.* As I pull up to the station, one of Minnesota's finest (State trooper) is filling up his cruiser.* I pulled into a pump adjacent to him.* Because he continued to make eye*contact with me, I acknowledged him with the customary half nod and wave.* His response, mild sneer.* After I filled up my car, I walked into the convenience store to pick up a newspaper.* As I'm standing in line to pay, I observed the trooper walking to the back of my car to take a mental note of my plate.* Back into his cruiser he goes and starts tapping on his laptop.* As I exit the store I shout at his half open window "Let me know if it's stolen!"* His response, bigger sneer as he pulls out to drive away.* After 20 years as a navy pilot in two wars and 15 years as a captain at a major airline, all this trooper saw was a black man driving a car that obviously he couldn't afford. My question is, how many of you experienced profiling by a LEO based on your race, age or just by the way you are dressed?Thanks guys for allowing me to vent.

 

[Mac Attack]

Mt little brother is a LEO and is always telling me how many stolen cars he has recovered just by running plates on the cars parked in a LOWES parking lot.

The sneer he made is clearly unprofessional, but I would never taunt or tease a LEO by making a remark such as that. If you already knew he was grumpy or profiling you, I wouldn't provoke him.

I'm sorry that incident happened and disappointed profiling still exists, but be the better man and don't even give them a chance to do anything further to you (and they can).

Dave

 

[colslaw87]

It's sad that society works that way. Stereotypes live because of what other people have done in the past. Like the one kid in class that ruins the field trip for everyone, lol.

I wouldn't think too hard about it. It's just good to know that he wasted his time, lol. You have to just chuckle.

 

[AR]

Raven I am of mixed Ethnic Background, and quite a large guy and it has happened a few times. Sometimes I blame the way I dress, if I am doing DIY at home I don't normally change if I have to go out and buy more construction materials or pump some fuel LOL.

Just accept that the guy was an racist piece of $hit.

Cheers,

AR

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

Don't worry about it. Things happen. He may just run everyones plate.

Maybe a bad day caused by ordering the wrong filling in his doughnut.

Stephen

 

[Aaron94T]

No excuse for the sneer but the running of the plate is very common. I have had mine run many times when they are behind or next to me at a red light. As another poster said, they catch a lot of people that way. But yes, I do get annoyed as I am doing nothing wrong and just waiting for the light to change.

 

[nbuch001]

First off let me say that comment to the police officer was great. There is no law nor prohibiting measure that says don't talk sh$t to cops. I'm all for authority and order but if some cop acted in that manner I'd say the same thing. I have been harrassed multiple times by cops in my NSX. Cop wanted to search my car...I had to inform HIM of the search and seizeure rules (and probable cause) to get him off my back. Another cop thought my car was stolen simply because of the age I looked to him. He also pulled me out of my car. Just make sure you never let an officer assert dominance in a situation that doesn't deserve it. Never thought law school would pay off but I guess it pays to know a thing or two when talking to a cop. By the way I'm 25, caucasion, and my grandpa was a cop. Go figure.

 

[swerve2007]

why don't you give us a rundown of things to know/say that may be outside of common knowledge?

 

[nbuch001]

Well without referring to my crim law outlines:smile:...I am not a criminal attorney nor have I officially passed the bar...waiting on results. I do have some experience working with a defense atty during school and can validate most of this stuff through personal experience.

First know the 4th Amendment. It is very useful.
Second, always say no to searches. Always. Make them work for it. If they threaten to tow your car again it could be illegal seizure. Probable cause and reasonable suspecion are key. Don't let a cop search your car if they are pulling you over for DUI. The two have nothing to do with each other but they will try to lead you to believe otherwise. Even open container doesn't mean you drank it unless the cop actually witnesses you committing the act. For misdeameanors usually the cop has to SEE you do it.
Third, a cop is never on your side. No matter what he says they are not and will try to get you to spill. A cop is not even required to protect you unless a crime is being committed.
Fourth, always ask to see the damn radar gun. Most of the time they say they are pacing you. That's crap. Can you calculate your speed relative to anothers while calculating the approach speed to another car that is moving? I can't but then again i went to law school. Most likely if a cop states they didn't get you on radar you will get the ticket thrown out. I have witnessed this many times.
Fifth, while trying to all this try not to fail the attitude test. Cops are human and they get pissed when a driver starts flipping out.

I find most prime members to be very educated and many could very well be lawyers as well. As such please don't take my advice as law. Most people know this stuff but just are not sure if they are right. Just be assertive and polite and the cop will hopefully treat you as an informed individual.

Also if anyone has questions about guns in California. I have a plethora of knowledgable experiences.

 

[BATMANs]

I suspect EVERYONE profiles or has some level of prejudice.

Heck, animals do it.

It's part of a self-preservation measure.

Of course my black friends don't complain when people profile their ebony roosters. They've learned to accept that not all men are created equal.......

Seal and Heidi Klum made a rare joint appearance on The Oprah Winfrey Show where Heidi said the first thing she noticed about Seal was his big package.

“I met him in a hotel lobby in New York City and he came in just from the gym and I was sitting there and I was, like, wow,” Klum tells Oprah Winfrey on her show’s Superstar Couples episode set to air Thursday.

Wow, as in Seal was wearing bicycle shorts.
“And I pretty much saw everything,” says Klum. “The whole package.”

 

[Rated NSX]

Raven, great comment to the cop; I need to remember that one. Because I'll eventually experience the same thing with my NSX.

I can vouch for what nbuch says. Cops are smart. Notice that they always ask your permission -- like "Can I search your car?" or "You mind if I search your car?" There's probably a reason for that.

Several years before I got the NSX, I was asked on two different occasions in two different cities (both in the South) if my car can be searched. Told them no. The first incident happened in college.

The second incident was just a few years ago. Pulled over for some complete made up reason like not passing safely. Right). I very politely told the cop that the BS reason for them pulling me over, and the request to search my car was racist and racial profiling. He said he was offended, and we actually had very polite conversation about racial profiling, and we agreed to disagree. We should have had beers in someone's garden afterward.

 

[DRIFTER]

I found that not being an A$$ helps out allot. Its very easy to find “probable cause“. All the cop has to say is that you were acting suspicious, or he thought he smelled something and he is going to search you $hit regardless of if you want him to or not. If they want to search you car bad they are going to. Or better yet call the K9 unit and have the dog go threw you stuff. Would you like that? Or how about getting pulled over every time you take you car for a ride. Your best bet is to go with the flow, be courteous and respectful and deal with it in court. That is why we have them.

 

[Miner]

Raven I am of mixed Ethnic Background, and quite a large guy and it has happened a few times. Sometimes I blame the way I dress, if I am doing DIY at home I don't normally change if I have to go out and buy more construction materials or pump some fuel LOL.

Just accept that the guy was an racist piece of $hit.

Cheers,

AR

I'm not sure the police officer is a racist POS.

I have been pulled over (many years ago) for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, so I am familiar with profiling. It is one of the least desirable aspects of law enforcement (an human nature).

When it comes to law enforcement and life in general, take the moral highground.

Miner

 

[Rated NSX]

I found that not being an A$$ helps out allot. Its very easy to find “probable cause“. All the cop has to say is that you were acting suspicious, or he thought he smelled something and he is going to search you $hit regardless of if you want him to or not. If they want to search you car bad they are going to. Or better yet call the K9 unit and have the dog go threw you stuff. Would you like that? Or how about getting pulled over every time you take you car for a ride. Your best bet is to go with the flow, be courteous and respectful and deal with it in court. That is why we have them.

Drifter, I'm not sure you're correct. Read closely nbuch's post. Cop's usually don't pull "probable cause" out their @sses. And when they do, the lawsuits against the city aren't a pain for them and the city (yes, ironic, because racial profiling and other knowingly unwarranted stops are illegal, yet the same cops are very careful not to break the 4th Amendment). Dogs are fine with me. That actually happened to me a couple times.

And in an incident right after college I forgot about -- a West Virginia cop (the police department to which he belongs aren't necessarily the epitomy of a progressive, social and cultural mecca) claimed that the previously lit, high quality cigars we had was marijuana (don't know if that's spelled correctly -- I've never smoked it). He ASKED to search our car. We replied in the negative since we know that a used cigar doesn't remotely smell like weed (never mind the pulling us over for no legitimate reason to begin with). He called the dogs. And no, dogs aren't allowed to search your stuff either if there's no probable cause. They can just smell the outside of your car. 4th Amendment rights don't change when there's a canine involved (just like torture laws don't change when canines are involved).

Cop I mentioned in my previous post also threatened (nicely) to call the dogs to pressure me to agree to a search. I told him that I don't care -- out of principle, he's still not searching my car over a obviously BS reason, but he can call the dogs if he wants to. He was shocked I had that much principle. He never called the dogs. Again, good, polite conversation with the cop.

Bottom line -- be careful of not creating a false choice. It doesn't have to be 'agree to everything or you'll be screwed from here on out.'

There's a difference between **willingly agreeing** to throw out your rights (again, there's no need for cops to **ask** to search if there's probable cause) while planning to hire a lawyer at great expense afterward to "deal with it in court" despite the fact that there was prob no original need to go to court, and very politely and respectfully standing up for your rights (especially when the cop is being polite and respectful). If anything, enough people doing the latter facilitates us enjoying our cars every time we take them for a ride.

 

[Meeyatch1]

I had a recent experience that for some reason still continues to irk me.* I was leaving a 50th birthday party of a good friend's wife.* I stopped at a gas station close to the house to fill up.* As I pull up to the station, one of Minnesota's finest (State trooper) is filling up his cruiser.* I pulled into a pump adjacent to him.* Because he continued to make eye*contact with me, I acknowledged him with the customary half nod and wave.* His response, mild sneer.* After I filled up my car, I walked into the convenience store to pick up a newspaper.* As I'm standing in line to pay, I observed the trooper walking to the back of my car to take a mental note of my plate.* Back into his cruiser he goes and starts tapping on his laptop.* As I exit the store I shout at his half open window "Let me know if it's stolen!"* His response, bigger sneer as he pulls out to drive away.* After 20 years as a navy pilot in two wars and 15 years as a captain at a major airline, all this trooper saw was a black man driving a car that obviously he couldn't afford. My question is, how many of you experienced profiling by a LEO based on your race, age or just by the way you are dressed?Thanks guys for allowing me to vent.

I spend less time worrying about why people may or not be profiling me, and more time just enjoying my cars and being alive. No matter what age, manner of dress, race, or anything else that you are, there are always going to be people that are going to be against you for something. The key is to stop worrying about how much of a 'victim' you are, and just go about your life. I know you are upset, and it is frustrating to deal with. I have had it happen to me too. The point is you have to let things like that roll or you will live your whole life being an angry individual just like the person that profiled you.

On a side note, thank you for your years of service in our military. I salute you, and appreciate all that you have done in that capacity, and your bravery.

 

[davidf]

Maybe he was a relative to this guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlejpsPsbqM

 

[nbuch001]

I found that not being an A$$ helps out allot. Its very easy to find “probable cause“. All the cop has to say is that you were acting suspicious, or he thought he smelled something and he is going to search you $hit regardless of if you want him to or not. If they want to search you car bad they are going to. Or better yet call the K9 unit and have the dog go threw you stuff. Would you like that? Or how about getting pulled over every time you take you car for a ride. Your best bet is to go with the flow, be courteous and respectful and deal with it in court. That is why we have them.

Well probable cause needs some defining and I don't mean Black's Law Dictionary (yes that is a real legal dictionary so don't flame me). Real world use. Probable cause can't be just some made up excuse to search for anything in your vehicle. Although a cop might treat it as such they must first state what their suspicion is. Lets say drugs. Well they have to first ascertain if you are intoxicated or under the influence. Again that is no excuse to search the car. Also lets say a police officer says he will search your car for the (illegal) drugs. Well if he finds an open container that charge will be thrown out because the cop didn't originally search your car for alcohol! That's a good ol' rules of evidence case. It doesn't matter what you see on COPS it's what happens in the court. The point is YOU have the right to say no so utilize it. Allowing a LEO to enforce his will against your rights just because you don't want to be assertive is a bad mentality and is very prevalent in California. It's the same mentality as "only cops and bad guys carry guns." Well let me tell you pholks carrying a gun without a concealed weapons permit IS legal so long as it is visible and unloaded. I bring this up because people fail to realize that a cop is only an authority when crimes are committed. If you have not committed a crime well... Obviously if a cop is going to search your car against your will don't use force cause your gonna get tazed. Again don't fail the attitude test but always be informed for these situations. Most importantly be innocent and don't have shi$$ or the YA-YO in your car!:tongue:

 

[nsxotic911]

A good friend of mine who lives in Lake Oswego Oregon says he's about the only 'colored folk' out there. He said he was pulled over a couple of times in his somewhat pimped out Acura Legend (bought form someone else.. he's not really into cars..) with bs reasons. He's a minister with no criminal or traffic history and a ex Navy serviceman.

Really sad, I'm a white dude with a nice car and I haven't been pulled over excpet when it was somewhat legit, like xxx in a 65 or something

 

[oscar_driver]

I get stopped b/c I am young ... *cough *cough


or maybe


b/c


I am

a

TOTAL


TALIBAN??? :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Honestly, I get stopped on the NSX -sometimes- is been a while, when I drive my BORING accord no one cares ..... with the need BAD of $$$ even grandmas are getting stopped LOL

Oscar

 

[nsxotic911]

I get stopped b/c I am young ... *cough *cough


or maybe


b/c


I am

a

TOTAL


TALIBAN??? :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Honestly, I get stopped on the NSX -sometimes- is been a while, when I drive my BORING accord no one cares ..... with the need BAD of $$$ even grandmas are getting stopped LOL

Oscar

Taliban!
Dude, I wanna have that look but my wife won't let me!

 

[rbilder]

No problem allowing you to vent. Better to do it here than elsewhere :smile:

It's hard to say if you were profiled or if he was just a jerk. Racial profiling happens I'm sure.

I've seen both sides:

1) judging & bias because of color, how you look (clothes, hair, tatooed, body piercings, whatever), age, sex (male or female, not so much on having it or performance, even though I'm sure there are judgements and profiles made there too), etc.

2) and I've seen people play the race card to their favor.

I'm white, but have been followed or treated not all that well also. It is more the person pulling you over, if they are having a bad day, just somebody abusing their authority, or a racist.

I've always been nice to LEO's.

NSX trip home after purchase, UT State Patrol, pulled me over at night for not having plates and doing 80 mph in a 75 mph zone.

I told him I had just purchased it and driving towards home. He asked with attitude, "whaaaatz so speciaaaal about an NSX? Is is suppose to be super fast or something?" My response, was I suspect it is the fastest car I've ever owned. Anyway to make the story short, he saw my bill of sale for a 91 Acura and I believe felt sorry for me. He gave me a look like he thought I was some type of idiot for paying that much, gave me my paperwork back and let me go.

When I was 27 I worked a job while in college from 5 pm until 9:30 pm. I was driving home in my 69 Mach I after I got off work, about 9:45 pm.

A person in front of me hit their brakes, I quickly switched lanes, cutting in front of a car in the other lane. I didn't cut them off, but it was a quick lane change. I could have hit my brakes and stayed in my lane.

So the state trooper had his rights to pull me over, BUT not the rest.

He came up saying, "that was some pretty fancy driving there." I was polite. I didn't really say anything about his comment. The next thing out of his mouth was "what you been smoke'n? I said, nothing. "what you been drink'n? Once again I said nothing. (By the way, he was right in my face.)
I told him I had just gotten off work and was heading home. He asked where I worked. I told him. It just so happened he said his uncle was the manager there and ask what his name was... apparently wanting to test and see if I was lying. But I gave the managers name and it was his uncle's name. I passed that test.

I might have thought things would have gone better from that moment, but I was wrong.

He asked me to use my turn signals... oops, I had removed the front bumper with the turn signals on them, as I was doing body work to get it ready to paint, so the only way to get my rear turn signals to work was manually.

That is when I got the "Rodney, Rodney, Rodney," while he was thumping me in the middle of my chest with his index finger.

I was getting pretty pissed, but kept my cool, even though inside I wanted to rip his face off. But he had a gun and it wouldn't have been worth it.

I did get a defect warning for the front bumper turn signals. Which I put back on the next day and took it in for inspection. I also turned in a complaint on the officer.

I also went to work and told my manager at the time that I met his nephew. I told him he (nephew) was a a**. Turns out the guy was a rookie... hopefully he matured some over the years.

I'm sure there are lots of stories like that.... on the other hand, I have had officers be very nice.

I suspect most of it is just human nature... some of us try to be nice and play nice and some people enjoy being bullies. Some days can be better than others.

Myself, I believe in one race, the human race. We are all in this together. Red, yellow, black or white, we are all precious in God's sight.

I believe that may also include Formula Red, New Formula Red, Berlina Black, Sebring Silver Metalic, Kaiser Silver Metalic, Brooklands Green Pearl, Hockenheim Green Pearl, Grand Prix White, Midnight Pearl, Monaco Blue Pearl, Monte Carlo Blue Pearl, Silverstone Metalic, Spa Yellow Pearl, Rio Yellow Pearl, Lime Green Metalic, Monza Red Pearl, Dark Charcoal, and Imola Orange Pearl.

I would be more than happy to have one or more in any of the above colors. :biggrin:

 

[Rated NSX]

nbuch, very good explanation.

As for legitimate pull overs, I'm sure I'll get legitimately pulled over for speeding when I return from Germany next year. I'm already used to going 120-145 on the Autobahn (the 20% that has no speed limits). :tongue:

 

[LJSB]

We have a police officer who has not said ONE word to you.

He did not detain or question you.

You did not like the look on his face.

You suggest you knew what he was thinking and what his motives were when really, you have no way of knowing, unless you have powers like Sookie Stackhouse.

What an apt title to this thread. You profiled the officer.

 

[DRIFTER]

Drifter, I'm not sure you're correct. Read closely nbuch's post. Cop's usually don't pull "probable cause" out their @sses. And when they do, the lawsuits against the city aren't a pain for them and the city (yes, ironic, because racial profiling and other knowingly unwarranted stops are illegal, yet the same cops are very careful not to break the 4th Amendment). Dogs are fine with me. That actually happened to me a couple times.

And in an incident right after college I forgot about -- a West Virginia cop (the police department to which he belongs aren't necessarily the epitomy of a progressive, social and cultural mecca) claimed that the previously lit, high quality cigars we had was marijuana (don't know if that's spelled correctly -- I've never smoked it). He ASKED to search our car. We replied in the negative since we know that a used cigar doesn't remotely smell like weed (never mind the pulling us over for no legitimate reason to begin with). He called the dogs. And no, dogs aren't allowed to search your stuff either if there's no probable cause. They can just smell the outside of your car. 4th Amendment rights don't change when there's a canine involved (just like torture laws don't change when canines are involved).

Cop I mentioned in my previous post also threatened (nicely) to call the dogs to pressure me to agree to a search. I told him that I don't care -- out of principle, he's still not searching my car over a obviously BS reason, but he can call the dogs if he wants to. He was shocked I had that much principle. He never called the dogs. Again, good, polite conversation with the cop.

Bottom line -- be careful of not creating a false choice. It doesn't have to be 'agree to everything or you'll be screwed from here on out.'

There's a difference between **willingly agreeing** to throw out your rights (again, there's no need for cops to **ask** to search if there's probable cause) while planning to hire a lawyer at great expense afterward to "deal with it in court" despite the fact that there was prob no original need to go to court, and very politely and respectfully standing up for your rights (especially when the cop is being polite and respectful). If anything, enough people doing the latter facilitates us enjoying our cars every time we take them for a ride.

Ok, but If you have nothing to hide then what is the big deal? you can wait for the dogs, or have the cop find something to write you for, or you could give the cop permission to do his job and be on your way.

I get pulled over for tinted windows all the time coming home from a late night. I have been asked to step out of the car and had my car searched. I have nothing to hide and don’t drink and drive. I was back on the road with no ticket in 15min.

I guess the difference is I live in a small town with small town cops. You piss off one and you will know it. Its just not worth the trouble.

 

[Rated NSX]

Drifter, the big deal is nbuch and I (and some others) like the Bill of Rights. That's what makes this country great. Not perfect, but great. The fact that we have nothing to hide is irrelevant. Maybe it is a small town thing, although I doubt I would change my outlook and be carefree about my rights just because I lived in a small town. I definitely wouldn't agree to a search because of my tinted windows (especially if they were within legal limits). On the other hand, if you're comfortable with doing so, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that either.