Roll Bar

[SKB NSX]

Has anyone here had a roll bar, (not cage), installed in their NSX coupe ?

I am trying to make my NSX as safe as possible for HPDE / PDE events, while still allowing me to drive the car safely on the street.

I have done a considerable amount of research on this issue on NASA, SCCA, TCRA, Corner Carvers, etc. websites, and find most people agree it is a big mistake to put in a cage for a car used on the street, even using the best foam available.

I'm also curious if anyone knows of any NSX rollovers and if there was any infringement on the passneger compartment on coupes.

Thanks in advance for anyone's knowledge in this area

 

[docjohn]

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53914 This thread has the same title give it a read. :wink:

 

[SKB NSX]

Hey DocJohn,

Not only did I read that thread, I started it !

I have just noticed that so many people on this site seem to race their NSX's, (and other cars), that somebody must have installed some rollover protection in their NSX's, without going the full race cage route, such as Doug's flamemobile, (which I have examined closely a few times).

:biggrin:

 

[docjohn]

Well did you call comptech and ask for the specs on the bar that Dave Davis had in his car?

 

[SKB NSX]

I spoke with Comptech numerous times during my suspension upgrades and they no longer make 'em. I suppose I may have to have a race shop fabricate one, since it seems no one on this board has one. . . or they're not letting on.

 

[docjohn]

fair enough, good luck.

 

[Edgemts]

I spoke with Comptech numerous times during my suspension upgrades and they no longer make 'em. I suppose I may have to have a race shop fabricate one, since it seems no one on this board has one. . . or they're not letting on.

I spoke with Shad a couple months ago about the bar, he said they would make them just need the orders, I may be buildin ganother track car and may need to buy one maybe two, SO? if we get 3+ confirmed orders they hopefully will make them.
I am a couple of weeks from confirmation on the build, I will let you know, or email me.
[email protected]

 

[johnnybul]

Mike,
If you are looking for other NSX owners interested for a cost savings (reduced production cost) please let me know approx $$$......., but I am very interested.

thanks
John B

 

[SKB NSX]

Hey Mike and John B,

Seems you guys are as interested in safety as I am. I figure if I'm out there running in HPDE 3/4 events, I'm still going plenty fast enough to need every safety device I can acquire.

Mike, if are you building an out and out NSX race group car, or an HPDE car?

I will call Comptech today and ask the following questions :

If we order 3, how long will it take, and how much will it cost.
How difficult is it to install and what sanctioning bodies will accept it.

I'll let you guys know.

 

[ncdogdoc]

The roll bar does not make the car safer. The NSX has very good crush strength at the B pillars. It is the collapse of the A pillar (windshield/frontal roof) that creates the problem. Roll bars do not help with this at all. They are good for increasing rigidity and having a nice place to attach your harness, but are really a false sense of security.

 

[johnnybul]

Thanks SKB NSX for looking into this.

My primary concern is for safety at HPDE events. I currently have Sparco racing seats with a five point harness ............but no cage nor bar.

After coming down to watch me at track events the past few years my wife will be going out in the NSX for her first track event this Oct.

Last Fall she went out as a passenger with a very experienced instructor. The very next session (the instructor was by himself) his e30 M3 JP Class racecar ruptured a coolant hose and spun the car out of control. This occurred at turn 10 at the Glen and the car was a total loss. He was protected by a SCCA/BMWCCA club racing accepted roll cage and was ok, but man, you should have seen this car afterwards!!!

This coupled with the death at the PCA HPDE event a few weeks ago, safety has been a high concern .........as it should be for these events.


Cheers,
John B

Ps
I have been searching for sometime but with not much success (ie local fab shops)

Here is my post from November of 2003
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25765&highlight=roll+cage

 

[SKB NSX]

North Carolina Vet (?), interesting comment, are you talking about T's, coupes, or both? Are you commenting on a roll bar (behind the seats, perp to the B-pillar), so you think w/o a full cage, the roll bar is useless? Just curious.

And John B, I have exactly the same setup, Cobra Imola GTII Kevlar seats and Sparco 5pt harnesses. I think this setup is safer in everything BUT rollovers, god forbid, and I want to be as safe as possible. No matter how safely you drive, you can never tell when soemone else spins in front of you, fluids are dumped on the track, you blow a tire . . .

 

[Edgemts]

The Comptech bar was made to be SCCA SOLO approved, no good for all out Road racing but it did add extra strength at the b- pillars and one diagonal bar on each side for support.

As Gary stated its not a perfect set-up, but its an inprovement.


Unfortunately without going to a full cage there is not much more you can do, the interior is already tight.
I have had too many people make comments to me recently about the fact that I dont have a cage.

I have my Track car- (One lap NSX) that I dont want to do a full cage unless I have to, and I am possibly building another track car for a local customer, may turn into a full race but we will see.

Mike

 

[SKB NSX]

Mike , and everyone else,

Yes, I have one group who agrees with me that in 95% of incidents, it's better to be in race seats with harnesses and another group that thinks having seats and harnesses w/o rollover protection is asking for it. Their reasoning is you can't manuever your body and head down in a rollover in harnesses and your head becomes the first thing to suffer. Their argument is you're safer in a stock seat w/stock belts because the seat will collapse backward, (tough in an NSX) and you can bend over to protect your head. Having been involved in a few movie stunt rollovers, even at slow speed, there is no way you have any control over where you move inside the car.


I just spoke to Chad at Comptech about their rollbars, (they have none, but would be willing to make more if we have 4 orders, at around $1500 each).
The bar bolts into the floor and the sidemembers are removable with bolts. So, if anyone is interested, let me know. Supposedly, it is SCCA Solo II approved, so it would likely pass HPDE/PDE, but not race group.
Chad also agreed with NCDOGDOC in that in his experience, (and I don't want to misquote him), he had seen the A pillar collapse on T's, but the few coupe rollovers he'd seen, there was little passenger compartment infringement even w/o rollbar protection.

I believe that with the recent HPDE fatalities, it's likely that more safety protection is needed, although the forums in NASA and Corner Carvers seem to be split in that requiring too much safety equipment in HPDE may narrow the ranks and it's a hard call to make things as safe as possible w/o scaring people away.

 

[ncdogdoc]

I was referring to any NSX, not just the T model.

There is unfortunately no good evidence with the NSX regarding this. Do a search for roll bar cage etc. on this site for some good arguing both ways about 3-4 years ago.

You can have a full cage done for a little over $2000. I realize it makes the car mostly unstreetable, but it is the only thing I believe is really safe for anything above middle beginner status. JMHO.

And to answer the inevitable question, the track rat has a cage, but it is not in the car at present

 

[Brian Bailey]

At $1500 a pop plus installation costs, any competent fabricator should be able to build these for you for less than that and they could very likely come up with a less intrusive design compared to Comptech's with the support bars coming forward.

I'm not saying anything negative about Comptech's design, but don't be blinded into thinking thats the only option out there or the only option that would look clean when installed.

Mike , and everyone else,

Yes, I have one group who agrees with me that in 95% of incidents, it's better to be in race seats with harnesses and another group that thinks having seats and harnesses w/o rollover protection is asking for it. Their reasoning is you can't manuever your body and head down in a rollover in harnesses and your head becomes the first thing to suffer. Their argument is you're safer in a stock seat w/stock belts because the seat will collapse backward, (tough in an NSX) and you can bend over to protect your head. Having been involved in a few movie stunt rollovers, even at slow speed, there is no way you have any control over where you move inside the car.


I just spoke to Chad at Comptech about their rollbars, (they have none, but would be willing to make more if we have 4 orders, at around $1500 each).
The bar bolts into the floor and the sidemembers are removable with bolts. So, if anyone is interested, let me know. Supposedly, it is SCCA Solo II approved, so it would likely pass HPDE/PDE, but not race group.
Chad also agreed with NCDOGDOC in that in his experience, (and I don't want to misquote him), he had seen the A pillar collapse on T's, but the few coupe rollovers he'd seen, there was little passenger compartment infringement even w/o rollbar protection.

I believe that with the recent HPDE fatalities, it's likely that more safety protection is needed, although the forums in NASA and Corner Carvers seem to be split in that requiring too much safety equipment in HPDE may narrow the ranks and it's a hard call to make things as safe as possible w/o scaring people away.

 

[Edgemts]

I tend to agree, $1500 is a bit much for a bar, but its also a lot of work with little demand.

Here is what I will do.
I have been dealing with a local Race shop that builds tube chassis etc,
I will take the next step and start working on Fabricating a bar++.
I have a couple different thoughts. What do you think?

What are the main concerns- Rollover protection- side impact??
I was thinking of doing a rear hoop-bar with a brace then going forward in the center at the roof line, down to the steel brace under the dash. Cut the Dash??? Dont?? Make it so the tube going forward is optional?
Side impact?
One side bar diagonal like the comptech? More- Less?
Anything going forward of the seats is going to require significant cutting etc.
I am also looking at making a complete dash, which would mean we could take the OE one out and put a replacement one in.
Mike

 

[NSX-Racer]

You can have a full cage done for a little over $2000.

Where do you get that bargain price? I would have estimated something in the US$ 10,000 region or above for a real FIA approved cage with bars going to every shock top (including through the rear window between passenger and engine compartment which has to be replaced by Lexan or so).

And of course it's always a bit difficult to fix a steel rollcage in a car with a lot of aluminium (no welding possible AFAIK) - I read the story about how they struggled in Japan to construct and build the first rollcage for the former JGTC NSX.

 

[Edgemts]

Where do you get that bargain price? I would have estimated something in the US$ 10,000 region or above for a real FIA approved cage with bars going to every shock top (including through the rear window between passenger and engine compartment which has to be replaced by Lexan or so).

And of course it's always a bit difficult to fix a steel rollcage in a car with a lot of aluminium (no welding possible AFAIK) - I read the story about how they struggled in Japan to construct and build the first rollcage for the former JGTC NSX.

In the past when I was looking to do a full cage. I was told ~$4000 by one cage fabricator and $6000 from someone who had done several NSX's.

 

[ak]

Although the comptech rollbar is nice, I don't think it'll pass NASA or SCCA inspection because the part that attaches to the floor is not large enough and also there's no backing plate to go on the otherside of the floor. If you modify the bottom part of the bar, it may be good enough. I'm basing my observation on the instruction found here.

http://www.comptechusa.com/store/media/instructions/ins056.pdf

-ak

 

[SKB NSX]

Guys,

First, as described earlier, the Comptech bar, or any "Roll Bar", is not going to pass NASA, SCCA, or any RACE GROUP technical specs, only Auto-X or Solo events. Only a full cage will do that, and in my research, some on this board, other boards, and talking to other people in the NSX community who do have cages , a full cage will require MUCH cutting, a lexan rear window and according to people who have had them fabricated, IS quite a job and does cost between $6K to $9K. However, if I was going into full race group, that is what I would do. But . . . I don't want to be in race group, only HPDE.

EVERYONE will agree that having a full cage on the street, even with FIA foam padding, is very dangerous on the street. If your unhelmeted head contacts the tubing, and it will, you're in for some serious hurt.

I am simply trying to provide myself with better rollover protection for a street/HPDE car, without severely modifying either the dash, rear window, and still allowing me to get into and out of the car easily on the street.

I'll be the first to admit, this may not be possible without going the full cage route, but then my car becomes a trailered race car, which I'm trying to avoid. I just want to be as safe as possible in HPDE events, which are NOT full racing, but where you still reach real race speeds. Safety is a prime concern to me as it should be to all of us.

 

[Ponyboy]

Then just get the roll bar or have one fabbed up. No disrespect, but it sounds as if you're arguing with yourself.

FWIW, I have been quoted 3k to 7k for a cage. Prices seems to be going up all the time too. Thank the Chinese.

 

[docjohn]

As I see it a significant number of the few single car fatalities at hpde's have been due to deceleration neck (spine) trauma,if this is your worry than I would be figuring out how to get a hans device to fit to the car either in concert with this bar or not.

 

[ak]

If I am not mistaken, I believe rollbar is all you need for time trial events by SCCA(SOLO I) and NASA. For wheel to wheel racing, you need a cage.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

You can have a full cage done for a little over $2000. I realize it makes the car mostly unstreetable, but it is the only thing I believe is really safe for anything above middle beginner status. JMHO.

Wow, what kind of a cage is that? That is extremely cheap. The cage in my civic cost about $4K!