Semi-DIY Mild Engine Build for FI

[Mac Attack]

Glad to hear your engine is running well Bats. Do you have any oil consumption? Piston slap noise when cold?

People complain on here about the two after a rebuild, but I haven't experienced any oil consumption or piston slap noise when cold (and there is no sound insulation on my rear bulkhead either).

Obviously, a part of that is the latest Wiseco piston/ring package, but I think one of the most important reasons is the Benson sleeves. Those bores are perfectly round with zero taper, and I have a tight piston-wall clearance.

I'm really happy with my engine so far and declare this thread a success. It was at ~525WHP twin turbo'd for 5k miles after the rebuild, and now it's back to 295WHP N/A for the past 5k miles. It sees the 8500RPM redline everytime I drive it.

It's the first engine I've ever stripped down and rebuilt. Yes, it took me a long time with other higher-priority things taking up my time as well as the bum Satterfield "machinist" when I used to live in Columbia, SC, but it was worth the wait/effort. Hopefully this thread served as an inspiration to others if they were on the fence about doing it themselves. Too bad the engine porn pics disappeared...

Let me know if anyone has any questions and I'll do my best to help. A lot of friendly, smart people helped me along the way and I would like to thank Mike at Autowave, Dan Benson, Mark Christman, Angus, and CARQUEST of Junction City Oregon (for fixing the SC "machinists" work).

 

[BATMANs]

Yes there is more oil use. 1 quart every 2-3k miles (depending on how many cold starts I do)

Yes there is piston slap when cold

I used the same piston brand and 2618 alloy on the GTO and donʻt hear slap. But I do get a little more oil use since itʻs a partial skirt design.

I may have missed this, but why are u back to 295whp?

 

[Mac Attack]

I used the same 2618 alloy, but the larger skirt. GM uses the very short skirt in the Mahle Corvette pistons, and those dont burn oil a qt every 3k miles. Maybe they machined your bores larger than the recommended 0.030" P2W clearance. That seems to be common practice for race engine builders like your guy. I asked Benson about going slightly bigger due to my power goals, and he recommended against it. Needless to say, I used 0.030". The oil scraper rings probably don't work as well when they're moving in and out with the larger gap.

I had a custom setup and couldn't tune the turbo transition correctly. Instead of spending more money on a different turbo I said screw it. After it not running for a few years I just wanted to drive it and enjoy. Peak power before the build on the OEM ecu was 255whp. Now I'm at 295whp with my aem ecu and new exhaust. I'm glad I kept the 10.2:1 CR. Stock cams/pulleys. The only performance adders were all the time-consuming little things I did while inside there.

 

[BATMANs]

Perhaps a SOS SC? in the near future

 

[Mac Attack]

I would only do a SC if I had to live in California!

 

[Mac Attack]

Recently took this car on an 850 mile road trip... through inclement weather... on hard 9 year old summer tires that I'm trying to use up... with no ABS or TCS :smile:
View attachment 152716


No complaints other than the rough ride over pot-holed midwestern roads. I'm hoping custom Ohlins DFV or TTX coilovers will help in that area soon.

This is the longest trip I've taken since the rebuild was finished about three years ago. In 850 miles it burned about 1/10 of a quart of synthetic, so not bad at all. In about a month at the next oil change I'm switching over to a new oil with a significantly better wear rate than the 10W30 Pennzoil Ultra Platinum I'm using now. A friend has personally tested a few of the top oils and this is far superior. No exotic concoction from my research... just a better, more expensive oil ($25 a quart). Totally worth it if it keeps my rod bearings happy with the torque I'm putting out.

The engine is back to putting out about 500 WHP. Even better is that I have 88% of peak torque between 2500 and 8000 RPMs. I'm really enjoying this car again after 14 years with it, and am working on changing it back to a daily driver. Might have to put the A/C back in, but 2700 lbs really brings out the awesome capabilities of this car. The original dyno comparison pre- and post-build disappeared a long time ago in this thread, but my latest curve is very similar to how I had it set up back in 2014... just a bit less.

 

[RYU]

That Dyno chart doe... Wow

 

[jwmelvin]

The engine is back to putting out about 500 WHP.

You're back to the turbo? With the Aerocharger + EFR combo? Any change in engine management this time?

 

[Mac Attack]

You're back to the turbo? With the Aerocharger + EFR combo? Any change in engine management this time?

Now I'm using two different EFR turbos instrumented with speed sensors and a bunch of pressure taps in revised piping so I can better tell what's going on. Still using the trusty old AEM Series 2. It does everything I need it to - Any inadequacies were just because of my lack of tuning knowledge. I've always wanted to take some of the EFI and AEM classes....

I would like to make a future Version III with another revised piping layout and a MAF conversion, but my company has announced bankruptcy and a future plant closure. I don't think I'll progress this design until that's resolved (but the Ohlins really needs to happen because the street ride is terrible on our crummy roads).

 

[Valhalla]

Now I'm using two different EFR turbos instrumented with speed sensors and a bunch of pressure taps in revised piping so I can better tell what's going on. Still using the trusty old AEM Series 2. It does everything I need it to - Any inadequacies were just because of my lack of tuning knowledge. I've always wanted to take some of the EFI and AEM classes....

I would like to make a future Version III with another revised piping layout and a MAF conversion, but my company has announced bankruptcy and a future plant closure. I don't think I'll progress this design until that's resolved (but the Ohlins really needs to happen because the street ride is terrible on our crummy roads).

Oh now this sounds fun. Please spill the beans on the piping and how these new turbos are response wise.

 

[Mac Attack]

Oh now this sounds fun. Please spill the beans on the piping and how these new turbos are response wise.

I'm a bit of a perfectionist with my engineering projects. I went through about 20 unique exhaust designs to balance flow, sound, and weight, but I just don't have the time or money to spend on something much more complicated like this. However, fluid flow is one of my specialties (acoustics was not), and I've spent a lot of time designing this system by benchmarking an overseas OEM that has placed this in a production vehicle. In fact, four years ago I purchased some of their parts as none were available in the US to baseline and tweak (i.e. $$$$$).

Sorry - I may consider offering this for sale in the future, so I don't have plans at this time to share layouts or details.

If you've driven a modern German turbo with a similar torque curve, then this is about the same! It's a bit weird off idle until about 2k RPM because I am limiting boost at low engine speed due to oil pump limitations. From my engine modeling, the OEM positive displacement gerotor oil pump cannot provide enough volume and pressure at that low of engine speed to guarantee I won't wipe the rod bearings. I had a custom dry sump but removed it due to worrying all the time about being stranded if it threw a belt. Went back to a heavily-modified oil pump with an oiling system that has been completely reworked. How many people flow test an oil pump out of the car to make sure it meets their specs?!

I won't have a marketing case for this if people have to change their oiling system, so I will have to reduce low RPM boost, or better yet, identify oils with better film strength and reduced friction.

It really is modern OEM turbo engineering generations beyond what current aftermarket vendors provide. Even the new NSX doesn't have this!

 

[RYU]

[MENTION=12356]Mac Attack[/MENTION] is the real deal

 

[Valhalla]

Wow, that is so much more than I had been thinking. Nicely done, thinking outside the box. Will be looking for more info when you are able to provide.

 

[Mac Attack]

Thanks. It was a lot of research and work... mostly getting it off the ground and avoiding "analysis paralysis" as [MENTION=20915]RYU[/MENTION] puts it! I've certainly learned a lot from Prime members and other communities, but obviously am not an expert and still have a lot to learn!

 

[Mac Attack]

Just finished wrapping the titanium outlet portion of my custom exhaust. 3" OD Grade 5 titanium, 0.035" thick.

I debated for a long time on whether or not I should blacken the unwrapped last six inches of the titanium with the oxi-clean bath or oil/torch method. In the end, I just sandblasted it for a nice matte finish.

Ideally, the inside diameter would be ceramic coated because of the weaker titanium. However, this section of the exhaust does not have much stress on it so I feel pretty comfortable (for now) even wrapping the exterior to retain heat in the metal.

Added some radiant reflective barrier on the underside of the trunk, and now I can finish the rear end and diffuser. Finally. Six years after I started the engine rebuild....

View attachment 153299View attachment 153298

 

[Mac Attack]

Anyways, a question in another thread about the DLC-coated piston wrist pins I did has prompted me to post a few pics from one of my other neat mods - the custom oil filtration and oil cooler setup I made a few years ago. Specifically the filter. It's a Canton CM-45 inline oil filter with replaceable cartridges. It's a high-flow, low restriction design for racing applications, and uses a synthetic filtration media. It's also easy to take apart and examine what it filtered.

I contemplated changing it within a few hundred miles of the rebuild, but decided not to because I thought I was pretty anal about keeping everything clean. I pressure-washed the block and oil passageways countless times, along with the crank gallery, heads, etc. So, I relied on the filter to stand up to it's recommended 10k mile oil change intervals. I did go through four oil changes... the initial 30wt non-detergent startup oil, then about 600 miles on Joe Gibbs break-in oil, and then finally a few rounds of non-synthetic stuff. My dry sump setup had a magnetized drain plug, and that stayed relatively clean considering the ferrous piston wall/ring break-in.

So, this is the old filter media taken apart. There are just a few aluminum specks, probably from the extensive block work I did (Benson sleeves, Timeserting, etc). There were also a few non-magnetic salmon-colored specks too. I built the motor and I have no idea where those could have come from. Anyways, as part of my Spring startup ritual now, I changed the oil, pulled the plugs to crank it over and build oil pressure without a major load on the crank and rod bearings, and then I did a compression test. All cylinders were great. The thing runs fantastic.

I highly recommend this filter if anyone else is doing a custom oil setup. This uses 12AN fittings and lines.

I changed the oil 6 months ago, and now it's time for another change - this time with a filter change.

So, after one year and I'm guessing around 3-4k miles (I need to check my notes), I replaced my Canton 8 micron synthetic filter with a new one, changed my Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 10W-30 to a mix of 4 qts Pennzoil 10W-30 and 2 qts of Tribodyn 15W-40 (my remote oil filter and cooler add a bit of oil volume).

A friend has performed his own modified Timken wear tests overseas, and highly recommends the Tribodyn oil. Unfortunately, we're still trying to figure out what's in it. I've searched for a MSDS to get some clue, but haven't found one. It says it's patented technology, but there's no reference to patent numbers. I initially thought it had some molybdenum, but most likely uses tungsten disulfide. It's blue. Hence my cautious implementation plan of only using 1/3 mixture for now. Royal Purple variants provided the next highest wear rates from his testing. There were no dyno gains to using this Tribodyn oil over conventional Castrol synthetic of similar viscosity on a 600HP vehicle. I'm just hoping it is cheap insurance if something goes wrong down the road.

View attachment 153564


Also, I took apart the 8 micron synthetic filtration media after a year and about 3-4k miles and didn't notice anything major. The filter is a non-bypass low pressure drop style. Addittonal pleated filtration media is folded under the visible section. In this confined area there were a few specks of aluminum and a few specs of the salmon-colored stuff from a year ago (but less of it). Nothing on my magnet. There was no observable oil pressure drop on my AEM pressure guage that I could tell over this period, so I think I'll extend the next oil filter change out to 2 years or 10k miles.

View attachment 153563

 

[Honcho]

Just finished reading this entire thread in preparation for my engine build on my project. So inspiring, Dave!

If you were going to go with higher lift cams (i'm looking at CT and KSP), would you still do the OEM springs and retainers? Maybe the Supertechs are a better choice there? Also, it looks like steel retainers are a far better option than titanium, but aren't the OEM retainers cast metal? Does anyone make billet steel retainers?

I wish Bats had listed his specs for the Ferrea valves- his posts convinced me that is the way to go based on the metallurgy.

You said that if you did it over again, you would have gone with the SoS billet mains. Is that because you went turbo? Is the cost (including line bore and hone machine work) worth it for my N/A 3.3L ~8,500 rpm design? I figure, at best, I'm looking at 330 whp with the ITBs, cams and AEM. Is it better to just have the machine shop maganflux the OEM caps, replace any that are fatigued and then chamfer/radius the stress risers?

I have the mechanical skill to disassemble the engine down to the block and reassemble, but obviously I would need a shop to do the sleeves, bore/hone and balancing. I assume it also makes sense to have them polish, clearance and do new bearings on the crank. Just wondering, having gone through it, what you would have the machine shop do and what you would do yourself in my circumstances.

Did you go with the CT cam gears? If I do cams and ITB, I think this is the way to go, but after reading the DAL website, there is no way I can degree them myself- probably something else for the shop. I wonder if I could get the top end fully assembled myself and then take it back to the shop to be degreed before the valve covers go back on?

 

[BATMANs]

.......I wish Bats had listed his specs for the Ferrea valves- his posts convinced me that is the way to go based on the metallurgy.

You said that if you did it over again, you would have gone with the SoS billet mains. Is that because you went turbo? Is the cost (including line bore and hone machine work) worth it for my N/A 3.3L ~8,500 rpm design? I figure, at best, I'm looking at 330 whp with the ITBs, cams and AEM. Is it better to just have the machine shop maganflux the OEM caps, replace any that are fatigued and then chamfer/radius the stress risers?

I have the mechanical skill to disassemble the engine down to the block and reassemble, but obviously I would need a shop to do the sleeves, bore/hone and balancing. I assume it also makes sense to have them polish, clearance and do new bearings on the crank. Just wondering, having gone through it, what you would have the machine shop do and what you would do yourself in my circumstances........

Ferrea should have the specs for the valves in their system.

Worse case scenario you can send them one intake and one exhaust valve and they can make the measurements and create the valves.

They don't sell direct to end users.

If you are doing an all engine build the OEM maincaps should be fine.

I upgraded mine to Billet since I had the engine apart and I think at the time there was some % off promo that I took advantage of.

 

[Mac Attack]

If you were going to go with higher lift cams (i'm looking at CT and KSP), would you still do the OEM springs and retainers? Maybe the Supertechs are a better choice there? Also, it looks like steel retainers are a far better option than titanium, but aren't the OEM retainers cast metal? Does anyone make billet steel retainers?

You said that if you did it over again, you would have gone with the SoS billet mains. Is that because you went turbo? Is the cost (including line bore and hone machine work) worth it for my N/A 3.3L ~8,500 rpm design? I figure, at best, I'm looking at 330 whp with the ITBs, cams and AEM. Is it better to just have the machine shop maganflux the OEM caps, replace any that are fatigued and then chamfer/radius the stress risers?

I have the mechanical skill to disassemble the engine down to the block and reassemble, but obviously I would need a shop to do the sleeves, bore/hone and balancing. I assume it also makes sense to have them polish, clearance and do new bearings on the crank. Just wondering, having gone through it, what you would have the machine shop do and what you would do yourself in my circumstances.

Did you go with the CT cam gears? If I do cams and ITB, I think this is the way to go, but after reading the DAL website, there is no way I can degree them myself- probably something else for the shop. I wonder if I could get the top end fully assembled myself and then take it back to the shop to be degreed before the valve covers go back on?

Thanks for the kind words. It was my first engine build ever and certainly a learning experience. A lot of people helped me along the way, and I spent countless hours reading everything I could. You have to be careful though - there's a lot of conflicting information out there and crap people perpetuate because they've heard it in the past and just don't know better.

I always wanted a FI setup, simply because I knew I did not have enough money to build a c-series N/A engine that would give me adequate power. With that in mind, there was no need for the $ cams, cam gears, valves, stroker crank etc. I also had no desire to get into degreeing cams twice (for each vtec cam profile) and measuring p2v and v2v clearance that goes along with it of course. The learning lesson and cash outflow had to stop somewhere!

Also, Honda makes some pretty good stuff and people have used it for many high-power FI builds. The block, crank, rods, and heads are all pretty decent from the factory. Why mess with that if they are proven up to a good 500 crank HP? N/A builds are another matter, but then you could take it steps further than ever documented on NSX Prime and go aluminum rods etc....

Yes, the only part I perhaps skimped on was the crankshaft main caps. Time will tell if my gamble pays off, but so far it has. Based on that, I don't have any regret skipping the aftermarket mains and instead using sound materials engineering knowledge to radius all edges and reduce stress risers. I actually did that on pretty much every sharp edge inside the engine... crankshaft included. Just a light radius - don't remove any structural material! Oh - you probably know this, but magnafluxing does not indicate fatigue margin in ferrous materials. It only shows if you have cracks already.

Based on what I know, you are very sharp, detail-oriented, and learn quickly. You are more than capable of doing all the teardown and reassembly yourself. I did everything except general machining and the new OEM valve installation (that included seat machining). That means you'll be spending some money on special tools, but doing it yourself will save you many thousands of dollars. Also, you can have the kids help!

View attachment 154358View attachment 154357

 

[jwmelvin]

Great pictures Dave. What a great project.

 

[Mac Attack]

Thanks Jason. It's hard to believe the oldest daughter will be driving in a few more years.... Of course, she'll learn how to drive a manual with the NSX.

We've taken a lot of road trips together in it over the years. This was after a quick 350 mile sprint to see the grandparents when she was about six months old. That was back when the NSX was my daily driver and completely original *gasp.* It used to be a really comfortable vehicle :biggrin:

View attachment 154377

 

[Honcho]

Thanks for the kind words. It was my first engine build ever and certainly a learning experience. A lot of people helped me along the way, and I spent countless hours reading everything I could. You have to be careful though - there's a lot of conflicting information out there and crap people perpetuate because they've heard it in the past and just don't know better.

I always wanted a FI setup, simply because I knew I did not have enough money to build a c-series N/A engine that would give me adequate power. With that in mind, there was no need for the $ cams, cam gears, valves, stroker crank etc. I also had no desire to get into degreeing cams twice (for each vtec cam profile) and measuring p2v and v2v clearance that goes along with it of course. The learning lesson and cash outflow had to stop somewhere!

Also, Honda makes some pretty good stuff and people have used it for many high-power FI builds. The block, crank, rods, and heads are all pretty decent from the factory. Why mess with that if they are proven up to a good 500 crank HP? N/A builds are another matter, but then you could take it steps further than ever documented on NSX Prime and go aluminum rods etc....

Yes, the only part I perhaps skimped on was the crankshaft main caps. Time will tell if my gamble pays off, but so far it has. Based on that, I don't have any regret skipping the aftermarket mains and instead using sound materials engineering knowledge to radius all edges and reduce stress risers. I actually did that on pretty much every sharp edge inside the engine... crankshaft included. Just a light radius - don't remove any structural material! Oh - you probably know this, but magnafluxing does not indicate fatigue margin in ferrous materials. It only shows if you have cracks already.

Based on what I know, you are very sharp, detail-oriented, and learn quickly. You are more than capable of doing all the teardown and reassembly yourself. I did everything except general machining and the new OEM valve installation (that included seat machining). That means you'll be spending some money on special tools, but doing it yourself will save you many thousands of dollars. Also, you can have the kids help!

Thanks Dave for the kind words. It honestly makes me nervous removing ANY material from the mains, even if just to radius the edges. Though, the mains are not a balanced part of the rotating assembly, so I'm probably just psyching myself out for nothing. While I have clearanced and assembled short blocks before, it seems more efficient to have the machine shop do it since they will have the entire rotating assembly for balancing anyway. Thankfully, our shop prices here in Colorado are much lower than those in California- I read Bats' receipts and wow! With the big oil/gas, mining and rail industries here, there is a wealth of machinist talent to be found.

I've been reading up on degreeing cams and thankfully it is well within my skill level. It's really just math and triple checking everything. My kids are 5 and 3 right now and definitely would help with the build. My little guy "fixes" the snowblower when I am working in the garage, so I'm sure he will be super excited. Ok, enough hijacking your build thread- I will start one in the N/A section.

 

[Mac Attack]

Thanks Dave for the kind words. It honestly makes me nervous removing ANY material from the mains, even if just to radius the edges. Though, the mains are not a balanced part of the rotating assembly, so I'm probably just psyching myself out for nothing. While I have clearanced and assembled short blocks before, it seems more efficient to have the machine shop do it since they will have the entire rotating assembly for balancing anyway. Thankfully, our shop prices here in Colorado are much lower than those in California- I read Bats' receipts and wow! With the big oil/gas, mining and rail industries here, there is a wealth of machinist talent to be found.

I've been reading up on degreeing cams and thankfully it is well within my skill level. It's really just math and triple checking everything. My kids are 5 and 3 right now and definitely would help with the build. My little guy "fixes" the snowblower when I am working in the garage, so I'm sure he will be super excited. Ok, enough hijacking your build thread- I will start one in the N/A section.

Well, I've had my engine past 600 crank HP and 9k RPM (custom dry sump back then), so I'd say the reduction in strength was negligible. But then again, the heavy clutch flywheel, the tuned ATI damper, and optimized tuning from cylinder pressure traces helps reduce the block and crank stresses as much as possible.

I would say that Bats' receipts and Jinks' receipts are pretty typical when it's all said and done. I'm definitely not going to add up all I've spent, and my build wasn't an expensive stroker! Sure, you can pay slightly less in labor rates in some areas of the country, but I would rather pay a little extra for peace of mind to have someone with experience doing this (wasn't the Acura tech that rebuilt your previous engine a "master engine builder" that screwed it up?). The extra cost is in the details and not rushing a job because of other outside factors. Polishing internal block walls for quicker oil drain, working on block internal oil passageways, massaging the stock or aftermarket oil pump, piston ring gap filing (the right way will take a pro hours), torquing the heads in stages over a few days period, taking an hour just to set the TB tension, setting the perfect valve clearance (it takes Kaz hours when the engine is outside the car for example)... it all takes a huge amount of time. Don't even get me started on cleaning. Even when the block comes back from having been machined and cleaned I guarantee it will still be dirty in some of the nooks and crannies. A paid technician most likely won't be that anal. Maybe I'm just slightly crazy, but my NSX engine build was to get some experience for an even more expensive engine build I did on another car :wink:

Oh, I'm not just talking about degreeing cams. That's pretty simple. When building an engine with custom valves, springs, cams, pistons, and rods/crank (like a stroker build), you really need to check p2v and v2v clearance that I mentioned above for each VTEC cam lobe profile (assuming you're getting all new aftermarket stuff). Here's an explanation and some pics of all the work involved for that:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-motor-naturally-aspirated-44/how-v2v-p2v-1891614/
I only had to verify p2v clearance and squish clearance with the reduced HG thickness adjustment and my modified (welded) combustion dome heads. Crank, rods, cams, valves, springs, were all OEM in my case.

Remember, these are all cold tolerances. If you want to play it safe you can use the standard hot rodders dimensions for minimum recommended p2v clearance and squish clearance. Just take into account the modulus of elasticity difference between the common 4340 connecting rod steel and our titanium rods (if you're reusing them) and adjust accordingly. I analyzed every possible Honda engineering/manufacturing tolerance I had control of and then adjusted it slightly further to maximize performance. That's just the engineer in me though....

Yeah, my kids were about 6 and 3 when the NSX engine was apart. Good memories!

Don't worry about this thread - Batmans derailed it long ago! Kidding, kidding Bats.

 

[Jinks]

The struggle is real. When a shop tells anyone they can rebuild your motor for 10k or less and do it in 2 months I laugh hard.:biggrin:

 

[Elite]

I've built my fair share and it takes time. I built other peoples maybe more anal than I build my own. Cleaning takes forever and I always tried to convey that to customers, but not sure they ever really understood just how much time it takes. Then there is the assembly process, it takes forever and a focused mind to do it right in my opinion. That being said, I don't miss this kind of work. :biggrin: