Lol Ross..You see what happens when you are new to the guys that post the most:wink: Looking at your pics and at your track records,and the rather transparent way you describe your work,I have no doubt you know what you are doing.Shad benefits from a long association with nsxca,and prime,and just knowing the guy allows me a comfort level.I'm sure as you go to nsxpos and keep on keeping on more guys will feel as positivley about you as I do about DA.Just don't make any new parts without firm deposits in hand:wink:
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STMPO Rollbar
- Thread starter TURBO2GO
- Start date
- Joined
- 19 February 2008
- Messages
- 1,532
Your telling me man... I look forward to shaking Shad hand at a track one day... calling another buisness owner in this economy would be a waste of both our time... Shad Has knowledge in this game that goes farther back than anyone on this forum.
As far as impressing people... In the past 4 months...
HKS has called me wanting to design products using thier componets
The owner of Cobb tuning inquired... he was clueless to who the hell I was because he keeps seeing my work
KW, Enkei Wheels and Nitto tire all went nuts when they saw the fabrication and power/weight data... the sponsorship decision is my choice at this point.
Now if I can just get NSX owners to believe... man... you would think it would be harder than the list above.
Regards
I am not sure I follow this
As your head moves forward wouldn't the A pillar become more important?
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Hrant, how far can your head go when you are in a harness with a hans type device? I'd think it would stay right at the B pillar. Even with a seatbelt.... when would your head ever move that far forward?
I did a quick search on NSX crash on google and this was the worst picture I found:
A and B pillars both crushed. I am sure a rollbar would have been a big help here. Do we know this car's history? Looks like 2002? From what I read the owner was fine.
Has anyone EVER died in an NSX that we know of?
I did a quick search on NSX crash on google and this was the worst picture I found:
A and B pillars both crushed. I am sure a rollbar would have been a big help here. Do we know this car's history? Looks like 2002? From what I read the owner was fine.
Has anyone EVER died in an NSX that we know of?
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How far your head is with a harness/harness bar and Hans is not the issue; your seating position based on how long your legs are :tongue:
If you have shorter legs, you would be pushing the seat forward hence you would be closer to A pillar. If you also have shorter torso, you would be seating further upright hence closer to the A pillar angle ... you get the gist :wink:
But since this is being custom built for your needs, the B pillar roll bar may be sufficient if your seating position is right under the B pillar. But in my limited and humble opinion - with no structural engineering experience, this really doesn't address a Targa's weakness as compared to the Coupe. It just reinforces an already strong B pillar further - which is not a bad thing if that is what you want.
Yes that crash/rollover looks pretty bad. A roll cage may have held the roof in place but not clear if it would have saved the driver - too many variables at issue, such as was this at a track event or in street driving? Or perhaps it was rolled over from a transport?
If you have shorter legs, you would be pushing the seat forward hence you would be closer to A pillar. If you also have shorter torso, you would be seating further upright hence closer to the A pillar angle ... you get the gist :wink:
But since this is being custom built for your needs, the B pillar roll bar may be sufficient if your seating position is right under the B pillar. But in my limited and humble opinion - with no structural engineering experience, this really doesn't address a Targa's weakness as compared to the Coupe. It just reinforces an already strong B pillar further - which is not a bad thing if that is what you want.
Yes that crash/rollover looks pretty bad. A roll cage may have held the roof in place but not clear if it would have saved the driver - too many variables at issue, such as was this at a track event or in street driving? Or perhaps it was rolled over from a transport?
All rollbars are at the B-pillar. You'd have to sit with the steering wheel inside your belly to be under the A pillar. It is just WAY too far. Even in a targa, you aren't or shouldn't be on the track IMO without the targa in place. A very strong B will greatly aid the A.
No matter what this provides another level of safety. I remember John@microsoft telling me not to buy HIS old bolt-in cage, and him being insistent I don't get a harness bar and get something with a main hoop tied to the frame rails. This IS that product.
I was amazed at what the aftermarket bolt-in cages and bars attach to when Ross showed me. A tin can part of the floor basically. I am pretty confident this will make any NSX safer, coupe or targa, street or track.
I'm still wondering... has anyone ever died in an NSX crash?
No matter what this provides another level of safety. I remember John@microsoft telling me not to buy HIS old bolt-in cage, and him being insistent I don't get a harness bar and get something with a main hoop tied to the frame rails. This IS that product.
I was amazed at what the aftermarket bolt-in cages and bars attach to when Ross showed me. A tin can part of the floor basically. I am pretty confident this will make any NSX safer, coupe or targa, street or track.
I'm still wondering... has anyone ever died in an NSX crash?
This video covers quite a few:
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You are correct with the first sentence. But you are missing my point :wink:
A roll bar will NOT help you if you are say 5'4" or even worse 5'10' with short legs and long torso. When you have a serious roll over where for some reason the forces exceed the OEM structure, the first thing that will give in a Targa - with the roof on - is the A pillar. At least that is my humble opinion.
Would the reinforced B pillar help in this situation. Probably yes and at best marginally as long as the Targa top remains in place as that is the only link/tie between the B pillar and A pillar. Look at the picture I posted again.
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Answer 1:
Answer 2:
We both agree, we are too clueless and need the help of structural engineers to bail us out :tongue:
Dave, harnesses WILL stretch in an impact (they are designed to in order to dissipate the energy as you move forward).
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Impressive materials in as far as what each sactioning organization specifies, but I am not sure what to make of it regarding my comments
But I do see that they have included the support cross bar that I mentioned earlier :wink:CL65 Captain is correct that the harness will stretch by design - and it usually has a shelf life in racing circles. My comment was again referring to one's seating position and whether the B pillar will help. Here is a crude illustration where an individual has shorter legs compared to torso - you can assume he is wearing a Hans if you like.
Now if the car rolls over with signicant force to crush the A pillar - the red line is an illustration of potential damage (it can be worse too), would the the B pillar/roll bar (in pink) be of any help to his head - (especially in a Targa even if the roof is on) ....?
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Hrant, again I fail to see your point. How is a comptech or other "harness bar" any safer than a real rollbar tied to the strut towers and the frame rails? The Targa's A Pillar is stronger than the coupe's. With the targa in place and a rollbar and the targa top tying it all together, it provides a much safer cabin than a coupe with a simple harness bar. Your picture is misleading because you are asking "what if I take my targa off and sit forward close to the A pillar?"
How is the A pillar any worse off with the rollbar in place? You are saying "doesn't address".... yes, it doesn't adress a lot of other things too. It's not a cage! If you are unlucky enough to be that close to the A pillar and have an accident severe enough to crush the A pillar COMPLETELY having the B not crush on you AS WELL is better. Will you die still? IDK.... safety is "steps".... this is a LEAP over a harness bar. The harness bar many of you (maybe including you) use on the track everyday.
Jim, OK, the harnesses can stretch. But how much? a foot and a half? Because that's how much my harness would need to stretch to put my head under the A pillar. I hear you, and thank you for clearing up that fact. But I don't think that "stretch" presents an issue here. I won't be moving forward any significant amount.
How is the A pillar any worse off with the rollbar in place? You are saying "doesn't address".... yes, it doesn't adress a lot of other things too. It's not a cage! If you are unlucky enough to be that close to the A pillar and have an accident severe enough to crush the A pillar COMPLETELY having the B not crush on you AS WELL is better. Will you die still? IDK.... safety is "steps".... this is a LEAP over a harness bar. The harness bar many of you (maybe including you) use on the track everyday.
Jim, OK, the harnesses can stretch. But how much? a foot and a half? Because that's how much my harness would need to stretch to put my head under the A pillar. I hear you, and thank you for clearing up that fact. But I don't think that "stretch" presents an issue here. I won't be moving forward any significant amount.
I will try one more time, but you are not reading my posts correctly :wink:
Please do not misconstrue my posts; I am only offering a perspective that may or may not help your particular situation/needs while also helping others. Any additional support IS indeed a plus as long as it doesn't create problems for street driving. Hence the dilemma of roll cage vs. roll bar in street cars.
My point is and has been that this is indeed a good product if your seating/head is right under the B pillar - and sufficiently shielded/away from banging the roll bar in case of an incident. If you have shorter legs and sit in the position I showed in the picture, it will offer marginal support at best - especially in a Targa.
As an FYI, most who are around just close to 6' (and some of us have taken the bottom seat out to be able to fit with the helmet without touching the roof - I clear perhaps by 1") tend to have their head/helmet on the front edge of the B pillar - again depending on leg/torso. I have seen taller drivers cock their head to fit with a helmet ...... Try to see where your seating/head position with helmet is to make your appropriate safety decisions. Your seating position at the track is not the same as the one in street driving especially if you have 5 or 6 point harness belts.
Please do not misconstrue my posts; I am only offering a perspective that may or may not help your particular situation/needs while also helping others. Any additional support IS indeed a plus as long as it doesn't create problems for street driving. Hence the dilemma of roll cage vs. roll bar in street cars.
My point is and has been that this is indeed a good product if your seating/head is right under the B pillar - and sufficiently shielded/away from banging the roll bar in case of an incident. If you have shorter legs and sit in the position I showed in the picture, it will offer marginal support at best - especially in a Targa.
As an FYI, most who are around just close to 6' (and some of us have taken the bottom seat out to be able to fit with the helmet without touching the roof - I clear perhaps by 1") tend to have their head/helmet on the front edge of the B pillar - again depending on leg/torso. I have seen taller drivers cock their head to fit with a helmet ...... Try to see where your seating/head position with helmet is to make your appropriate safety decisions. Your seating position at the track is not the same as the one in street driving especially if you have 5 or 6 point harness belts.
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Hrant you do realize you are questioning nothing in particular about this rollbar but ALL ROLLBARS in general? Because this is how EVERY rollbar functions.
I think what you are trying to point out, is obvious.... that's why I say I don't get it. Yeah, the A can still crush... don't we all know that? Yes, if the A crushes and you are close to it, no one knows what will happen. There is still some benefit with having a very strong B that is attached to the A. Through "pins" even.
Having the B NOT collapse and having it absorb some energy from the A helps. If the point of impact is at the B, it's a huge help. If its at the A, it's a small help. If it's in the middle, it's more moderate help. This is how all rollbars work. I never thought a rollbar was going to for sure keep me 100% safe in any rollover. I'm looking for additional safety where I can get it.
I remember John telling me how he had looked extensively at this issue, and telling me pretty much that he though a harness bar in a rollover could actually hurt. Come undone, and be a liability in the cabin. At the very least, this rollbar can be called a much more proper harness bar.
I'm really happy Ross is making this part. I think it would be great for any tracker to have, and I am making myself the guinea pig for fit/finish/design. We should collaborate to make this better and support someone like Ross because there aren't too many guys that would be willing to do this.
The issue I have with your posts is that you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. The downside to your posts is that some novice guy will read all your posts and get confused.... and think "well, maybe this won't help me" when you and I both agree it clearly adds safety. He doesn't wind up with a product to possibly save his life, and Ross wonders why no one else bought a unit.
After I get this, I will be a lot more comfortable installing a seat, a harness, and removing the airbag.
I think what you are trying to point out, is obvious.... that's why I say I don't get it. Yeah, the A can still crush... don't we all know that? Yes, if the A crushes and you are close to it, no one knows what will happen. There is still some benefit with having a very strong B that is attached to the A. Through "pins" even.
Having the B NOT collapse and having it absorb some energy from the A helps. If the point of impact is at the B, it's a huge help. If its at the A, it's a small help. If it's in the middle, it's more moderate help. This is how all rollbars work. I never thought a rollbar was going to for sure keep me 100% safe in any rollover. I'm looking for additional safety where I can get it.
I remember John telling me how he had looked extensively at this issue, and telling me pretty much that he though a harness bar in a rollover could actually hurt. Come undone, and be a liability in the cabin. At the very least, this rollbar can be called a much more proper harness bar.
I'm really happy Ross is making this part. I think it would be great for any tracker to have, and I am making myself the guinea pig for fit/finish/design. We should collaborate to make this better and support someone like Ross because there aren't too many guys that would be willing to do this.
The issue I have with your posts is that you aren't telling me anything I don't already know. The downside to your posts is that some novice guy will read all your posts and get confused.... and think "well, maybe this won't help me" when you and I both agree it clearly adds safety. He doesn't wind up with a product to possibly save his life, and Ross wonders why no one else bought a unit.
After I get this, I will be a lot more comfortable installing a seat, a harness, and removing the airbag.
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I liked your previous edits better ....... re it is good thing that we are not both drunk :tongue:
Agree with you in principle. My only comment re this specific roll bar, and only from seeing quite a few, if you are going this far shouldn't it also have the cross bar?
Agree with you in principle. My only comment re this specific roll bar, and only from seeing quite a few, if you are going this far shouldn't it also have the cross bar?
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- Joined
- 19 February 2008
- Messages
- 1,532
Price Increase...
http://www.stmpo.com/product.php?productid=16162&cat=249&page=1
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1333638#post1333638
345.95 plus shipping for the NA1 V1 RSTB now...
Don't get discouraged guys... The carbing 2 point mount RSTB sells for 368.00
Your still getting a 4 point mount for less than that.
Not to take away from Ross' contributions - but staying on the topic of roll bars especially for Targas ...... more than three years I was discussing an option with a vendor on creating a brace between the A and B pillar for the Targa (with the roof off) for those who needed more head roof or somewhat the open feel even on street driving with more safety/rigidity. The timing/priority was not right .... See the very basic and probably structurally futile idea ... but you can see the focus has been the A pillar.
Now. with Ross' design, I am wandering if a T can not be made to attach/support the A pillars while the leg of the T goes through the center of the roof line to the B pillar. The bracket at the A pillar could be U or whatever and yes it may require drilling a hole. In this scenario, theoretically the Targa roof would be kept or removed; even the T could be removed at will unless it is welded to the B roll bar. Just a thought.
I also attached an old picture of one 6' driver and his seating position with the seat cushion in place.
Now. with Ross' design, I am wandering if a T can not be made to attach/support the A pillars while the leg of the T goes through the center of the roof line to the B pillar. The bracket at the A pillar could be U or whatever and yes it may require drilling a hole. In this scenario, theoretically the Targa roof would be kept or removed; even the T could be removed at will unless it is welded to the B roll bar. Just a thought.
I also attached an old picture of one 6' driver and his seating position with the seat cushion in place.
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- 19 February 2008
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- 1,532
Once the hoop attaches to the rear strut tower... It becomes.. by definition... a 4 point. Frame rails and shock towers are the only points that matter.
4 points is defined as 4 feet or 4 mounting positions. 4 points becomes stronger than any combination of cross bars.
When John@microsoft talked Turbotogo out of buying a harness bar... it was because harness bars designed by "NSX Fabricators" mounted to the floor of your car. The floor can easily be puntured by a harness bar with SMALL FEET. That harness bar is connected to your body at 2-4 points...
We can install a harness bar to an NSX and do this with the car
I look and sound mad because when you state you have seen many cages.. your idea's are tailored towards full cages and we have many compromises to make for a street version.
FWIW..........
I make parts for the community.. That community currently consists of
1) NSX owners who look at my accomplishments and speak to me either over the phone or on email... Or gives me respect for those accomplishments before speaking with their keyboard.
2) NSX owners that want to question my R&D level, skill level and overall quality without knowing who they are talking to... this small group of people is driving the prices of my "higher quality" products to just a tad under my competitions prices instead of a good deal for everyone.
I didn’t google those FIA and SCCA links and post them... I had to dissect them and advise the owner of FXMD "Ken" when he choose to have our company protect his driver "Billy Johnson" while maximizing the rigidity of their 850 hp car so it could go out there and re-beat their records.. which they are doing.
A Super GT and ALMS Aero Engineer named Andrew Brilliant then had to come in and design an aero package to keep the power of this newly rigidified 850hp NSX to the ground... which he succeeded in... accomplishments like this need communication and teamwork. I apply that same level of communication and teamwork to consumer products.
During phone calls and emails with Turbotogo... he was made aware that the cross bar is important. He received an email of the FIA specs of a roll cage. He was given time to review it... and today we are waiting to show him the mounted main hoop with down bars. At that time we will measure the loss of the passenger seat and play with all of the style mounts of this cross bar so we can email him pictures for him to decide.
Dave will then be able to properly decide between additional safety and loss of use at no additional charge.
Dave will not be able to make changes once this is powdercoated. But he will be able to "customize along the way to the final product" .
This requires a company that can actually make the part... not negotiate with a distributor. We are willing to listen to the consumers needs and making adjustment to those needs.
Regards
Attachments
![nsx_121602_002[1].jpg](/data/attachments/52/52108-83ae842f38b0f60095f212fdf743e597.jpg)
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Wow ...... and wow again
Dave, I have nothing more to add to this conversation and as I said before, what do I know
Ross, good luck to you - even when you don't seem to acknoweldge a compliment when it it is offered to you more than once. But since I do have relatives who are structural engineers, I will indeed ask them if a square is stronger than a square with a diagonal in it :wink:
Now I will take my meds :biggrin:
Dave, I have nothing more to add to this conversation and as I said before, what do I know
Ross, good luck to you - even when you don't seem to acknoweldge a compliment when it it is offered to you more than once. But since I do have relatives who are structural engineers, I will indeed ask them if a square is stronger than a square with a diagonal in it :wink:
Now I will take my meds :biggrin:
- Joined
- 19 February 2008
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- 1,532
Wow ...... and wow again
Dave, I have nothing more to add to this conversation and as I said before, what do I know
Ross, good luck to you - even when you don't seem to acknoweldge a compliment when it it is offered to you more than once. But since I do have relatives who are structural engineers, I will indeed ask them if a square is stronger than a square with a diagonal in it :wink:
Now I will take my meds :biggrin:
Thank you for the compliments... sorry for not acknowledging them.
Don’t ask your relatives if a square is stronger than a square with a diagonal.
Ask them is a square with 8 diagonals is stronger than a cube.
A 4 point becomes a 3 dimensional piece.. a square will always be on 1 plane to any engineer.
Regards
