The NSX/Taiwan Connection

[BD]

What kind of question is that? are you just trying to flat out argue? Does Singapore have its own language? You already know Taiwan is ran as its own nation or two political system as what you call it. Most of the world know. It can't declare independence for obvious reasons.

Jason, I'm not trying to argue at all, I am truly confused by this "Taiwanese Pride?" What does it means, where it is from, and what is it based off? As for the editing my previous posts, it is mostly grammar, content remained the same.

The biggest reason my parents brought the family to the US was due to the fact that my father was working for an US company, and he did not like the idea of mandatory military service. He can careless about the politics in Taiwan – He was making US dollars and the exchange rate during the 70’s and early 80’s, we literally lived like millionaires.

OK, here we go, back on topic

I’ll give you an example of why I’m confused so you don’t take it the wrong way:

1. The American Indians pride them self as Nature-er. They love and claimed having the abilities to communicate with the nature – Seek advice. They have a way of life that is completely unique and no one similar.

2. Even though currently, the Japanese in general don’t like to talk about their involvement during WWII, but their tradition of “Honor” still reflect on their way of life. Such as productivity, hospitality, honesty, etc.

Do you see where I’m coming from?

Can you or some one please explain that to me? Is this Taiwan pride based on:

- The "Native" tradition?
- A desire to be independence?
- Financial superiority?
- The past history?
- The language?
- Religion?
- Accomplishments?
Etc.


About seven years ago, I was in a conversation with an Armenian in Glandale, who is in the Tobacco business. During our conversation, I brought up the subject of Armenian is basically Middle-Easterner who lived in Russian. He was offended, but did not loose his “cool.” His reply was basically “Armenia at one point, was an independent nation; we have our own language, culture, and lifestyle. Russians took over our nation by force (war) and tried to change our ways of life, tell us what to do, rule our land, what to believe, but none-of that matters today, because we got every thing back.

Taiwan however, was never an independent nation; it has always been part of China. While under the Chinese ruling, it was invaded by the Dutch (Who gave it the name FORMOSA = Treasure Island), were later driven out by Chinese. Japanese did the same, and was driven out during the WWII by the US and Chinese military. The Civil war cause the republic party to retreat to Taiwan, and set up the current government, but the official name is still ROC. The bases of the current politic/government are still under 3-demo-concept (San Ming Drew Iee), which is written by Founding father of ROC, and the concept was based on the US constitution. I was puzzled to see Ben posted the word “dictatorship” on his earlier posts. Unlike some of the Island Nations in the pacific, Taiwan probably has the least amount of the US Military presence, but strategically, one of the most important one.

You confirmed what I wrote regarding the ever-shrinking Taiwan export – Cheapest labor will earn the contract, and the cheapest labors are no longer from Taiwan. Therefore, the value of the US protection for Taiwan is strictly strategically (military). If that is the case, do you think the independence movement is a wise thing to do because some, but not all of the natives want it that way? That is why my previous posts indicate the reason why I believe the two political systems will eventually merge.

Jason, I have been in the US for 24 years, and you are the only friend I have from Taiwan I can call “bro” and enjoy hanging out on a regular basis; in fact, you’re the only friend I have from Taiwan since my high school days (20 years ago), during an era when I wasn’t old enough to understand the politics. Today, I’m a very neutral person regarding this subject, but as always, if I see and interested in some thing, I’ll ask the questions. As usual, I will post my reasons behind the questions and how much I understand the event/situation.

Let me put it simple. If I have to leave the states, I wouldn’t mind go back to Taiwan, it will be my first choice – because I’m from there.

 

[nsxsupra]

Jason, I'm not trying to argue at all, I am truly confused by this "Taiwanese Pride?" What does it means, where it is from, and what is it based off?

Ok, fair enough, I got my cool back.

Let me settle this for good. I can't speak for everyone, but I will speak for myself. I don't mind unification peacefully but prefer independence. If unified peacefuly and both beneift, my view may change.

-It is something you either care or you don't. Black or white, simple as that.

-My Taiwan pride is my positive experiences and joy from the place I grew up. It is a place where I have love for. People I love still live there and I care for them. It feels like home.

-In my opinion, besides the label it has been independent for years. China's involvment so far is only negative not positive. Accomplishments are accomplished by people in Taiwan not China.

-I witnessed with with my own eyes what can be accomplished with hard work, not inerited wealth or pure luck. At least not in my family.

-Lastly, I think exactly the same as many Taiwanese. Maybe you should ask them. You should never let this bother you or even care to a point that preaching is required, because it is a personal freedom.

-Influence from past experiences. Can't deny that, people (some) are simply too stubborn for their own good, that include myself.

-人為一口気. Reason good enough?

Can you or some one please explain that to me? Is this Taiwan pride based on:

- The "Native" tradition?
- A desire to be independence?
- Financial superiority?
- The past history?
- The language?
- Religion?
- Accomplishments?
Etc.

None of above with exception of accomplishments from this list. My resasons are above and before this quote.

A lot of people have misconception that Taiwanese are spoiled or all about money. Completely untrue.

Let me use myself as example since you know me so well and you know my history. If my friend don't have anything or there is no one around when they need it. I be there.

I present myself as I enjoy quality things and anal. It may give people an wrong impression right? I am so used to being misunderstood. The same apply to Taiwan. When it comes to friends. Fun factor/social/networking is all it matters and that is my #1 incentive. I don't care what they have or not have, how much money they got, what car they drive, not my, why should I care. We talk about it because these are fun topics. I may impress/appriciate a little bit as it is human nature and because of our hobby, no further. If I like to be around someone, it is because I enjoy being around with them not what they have or able to provide me.

 

[BD]

Do you know that when I moved to the states in 1983, I didn't particularly get along with some of my Jr. and high school mates that were from Mainland? I believe it was mostly due to the fact that I was taught not to like them. As time goes by, I start to understand all the negative sentiments were forced to the young kids as part of the propaganda in Taiwan. Apparently, they taught the new generation a whole new way of thinking since my days in Taiwan (whether the current concept is a correct one remain to be seen, and none of us can make a judgement until the future). As I have indicated, I don’t have any thing against the Taiwan independent movement, I just think the timing is wrong, and timing is every thing. I believe they missed the one and the only one-way train to independence decades ago.

What ever grudges the older generations of “Natives” have against the old Democratic Party, it is somewhat near sided. Today the prosperity people enjoy so much in Taiwan, is the direct result of the relationship of the "retreated democratic parties" from China after the civil war and the United States. Under that political relationship, US offered economic and technological assistance/incentive to make Taiwan a post industrial revolution nation. Under the political telescope (my opinion), Taiwan is basically a orphan that was taken in, and under the watch of United States, who guarantee to protect them, as long as the country behaves properly. Of course that was fifty plus years ago, and we are now live in a different era. What the post WWII US government’s view on the situation may be very different from the Post Cold War era. That may be the direct reason why the current Taiwan Politicians is no longer pushing the independence movement. In a way, they are very smart for not rocking the boat.

BTW, the US has to be extremely comfortable with the situation/relationship with Taiwan and China. China has emerged as Second in world power and the last thing the US want to see is a "hole" in the Pro-US Pacific Rims Islands (Japan, S. Korea, Taiwan, Phillipine, etc). As long as China maintan the "communism" philosophy, it will be very hard for the US to grand independence or merger with the Main Land. If Taiwan is absorbed into the Mainland, Japan will probably fall into panic.

So here my final question… For those who call them self “Taiwanese,” are they refer to them self as a race/group of people who is seeking their own sovereign nation and believe they have the right to pursuit their beliefs, or they are simply using a term similar to that of “New Yorker?” I believe that is a very important question because it will shape the future outlook of the Island.

 

[awsomr1]

Please define Taiwanese...

1. People born in Taiwan? (I was Taiwan born, but they call me Cantonese since my father was born in Canton)
2. People speaks Taiwanese? (I was raise in the south, and speaks Taiwanese fluently)
3. People born in Taiwan and speaks Taiwanese? (I think I qualify under this one also)

Arn't today's so call Taiwanese originated from China also? (Fu Jian?)
According the ROC's history, Taiwan is an provinace not a nation, so if Taiwan is to be call a nation they should declare war with ROC, after winning such war, than they can call themselves a nation.

Just the way I see things, how can Taiwanese be a nation if it is not indepandence from both PRC and ROC?

I had been here since 1978 (longer than most of you guys here), in this matter I'm pretty old school about it. I feel what Taiwanese doing is burning the bridge that got them here the first place. At this point of time, I have more respect for Mao than Chan. At least Mao went to war and kick KMT's ass to take control of China, if Taiwanese wants indepandance from both PRC and ROC, than declare your indepandance and take on who ever left that are in favor of the ROC, stop trying to change names on buildings, and/or change the national language, blame every little thing on the KMT, without KMT, there won't be any freedom of speach you enjoy so much in Taiwan. You will be under PRC's control, who we all know controlled everything for decades. You want your indepandence, declare it, than go to war for it. When that happens, I have respect for you and recognize you as an indepandent nation. At this time, you are still under ROC and ROC had been indepandent from PRC since the end of Chinese civil war.

Like I said, these are just my opinion at this time, maybe a different leader in Taiwan will cahnge my mind, but not now.

Ok, I got my flame suit on

 

[nsxsupra]

Vance and James,

This is a sensitive topic. It is a topic "we" normally avoid. Even siblings can have fight, argument, disagreements, etc. I didn't disagree with either one of you on your mainpoints. Taking out the portions where I lost my cool on post 98. You should be able to understand or relate to some of my feelings.

There are many things that can cause me to have different view from my perspective:
-I am not as Americanized, due to lenth of time I have been in US.
-I was not yet borned during 1978
-many other reasons

For me posting or venting is equivalent to writing my own personal journal, a lot of my friends are on prime. It is also one of my ways of communication and getting things off my chest. I can lose cool here, but there are cushion/space to cool down and regain my calm. Allow me a chance to look back and view what had been said again and get a completely different meaning/feeling.

I am the one who is respondsible for ruining Mike's thread. I felt bad. If you look at the date of my first post on this thead. I vented after certain very unhappy event that took place, event of which I have promised to completely forget and never look back. I already forgot about the content.

So here my final question… For those who call them self “Taiwanese,” are they refer to them self as a group of Chinese who is seeking their own sovereign nation and believe they have the right to pursuit their beliefs, or they are simply using a term similar to that of “New Yorker?” I believe that is a very important question because it will shape the future outlook of the Island.

Vance,
I altered your comment above slightly. In this case it depend on if I am talking to a Chinese or someone from another country. Chinese to Chinese situation, it is same as meaning as say 上海人、台湾人、香港人, etc. Similar to the "New Yorker" term you mentioned, it is within same race. It pin point exactly where you are from in this case. You get that ohh, I see effect from whoever you are talking to.

If I am talking to a Japanese or German or anyone from another conutry, in this case, it is more of national scale to me.

 

[awsomr1]

Jason, I think it is great that after so many years here and away from Taiwan you still feel strongly for Taiwan, I use to be the same way, very proud of my hereitage from Taiwan, but in the last decade, things had changed, imho, it got worse not better, maybe that is just me.

I use to be proud to said I'm Taiwanese (at those time it mean you are from Taiwan), but now the new Taiwanese are calling people like me outsiders. WOW, what a change in last decade. That is something new for me to get use to, to not be proud of being Taiwanese (since my father is from Canton).

Now I'm just a proud Chinese instead. I feel sorry sometimes for people like me. We are rejected by the new Taiwanese, mainland China consider us outsiders also, although I speak fluent Cantonese, people from HK don't consider me as one of them, worst of it all, I sure don't look white even if I had been here close to 30 years. Therefore, I now only consider myself American/Chinese, not Taiwanese, not Cantonese, but American/Chinese, born in ROC but raise here in the US.

I wish the best of luck to Taiwan, I hope one day that they can get over being so races against other Chinese, it is hard enough trying to stack your gound on such a small island with China over looking, trying to find every chance to take over the Taiwan, Taiwan shouldn't be fighting so hard internally but joint forces with KMT and make Taiwan a better place for those who lives there, stop the corruptions (as much as you can), bring the economy back up, bring jobs and factories back to Taiwan, not just calling each other names and having fist fights on congressional meetings.

These are just my .02

 

[OnebadKA9RL]

Hey everyone! Just checking in :biggrin: Born in America... went back to Taiwan until 2nd grade and came back to Arcadia.Used to go back to Taiwan every year. Half of my family is still in Taipei and Kaosiung. They don't want to come over to the US... too different for them maybe?

Eric

 

[odonata]

In the spirit of political discussion, I was wondering if any of you have seen this film? http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Fascinating stuff...

 

[SilverOne]

Jason, I think it is great that after so many years here and away from Taiwan you still feel strongly for Taiwan, I use to be the same way, very proud of my hereitage from Taiwan, but in the last decade, things had changed, imho, it got worse not better, maybe that is just me.

I use to be proud to said I'm Taiwanese (at those time it mean you are from Taiwan), but now the new Taiwanese are calling people like me outsiders. WOW, what a change in last decade. That is something new for me to get use to, to not be proud of being Taiwanese (since my father is from Canton).

Now I'm just a proud Chinese instead. I feel sorry sometimes for people like me. We are rejected by the new Taiwanese, mainland China consider us outsiders also, although I speak fluent Cantonese, people from HK don't consider me as one of them, worst of it all, I sure don't look white even if I had been here close to 30 years. Therefore, I now only consider myself American/Chinese, not Taiwanese, not Cantonese, but American/Chinese, born in ROC but raise here in the US.

I wish the best of luck to Taiwan, I hope one day that they can get over being so races against other Chinese, it is hard enough trying to stack your gound on such a small island with China over looking, trying to find every chance to take over the Taiwan, Taiwan shouldn't be fighting so hard internally but joint forces with KMT and make Taiwan a better place for those who lives there, stop the corruptions (as much as you can), bring the economy back up, bring jobs and factories back to Taiwan, not just calling each other names and having fist fights on congressional meetings.

These are just my .02

Amen! I was born in Taiwan, came to US in 85', and have always thought Taiwan as my native land. However, Things have changed ever since Chan took over. I do visit regularly (at least once/year) up until several years ago when the people stop being nice purely based on their assumption of who I am because I have a blue passport. Just as James stated above, I will never be mistaken for caucasian here in US, Mainland will not see me as their own. Native Taiwanese do not consider me or treat me as Taiwanese either because my family were not 'native Taiwanese'.

Politics in Taiwan is a joke, sadly the ones that truly suffer are its people when S*** hits the fan. The politicians all have means of getting out the country, and they will be GONE upon first sign of trouble. I don't believe they have any loyalty to their own country.

It's sad, I do wish China would take over and restore order since Taiwan can not govern themselves. I don't consider or think of Taiwan much any more, nor do I consider it my native land. Life goes on.

 

[nsxsupra]

I do visit regularly (at least once/year) up until several years ago when the people stop being nice purely based on their assumption of who I am because I have a blue passport.

Chris,

I don't get why you let that bother you to a point that you have to stop visiting. Do everyone treat you like that or just a few bad apples. There are got to be quite a bit more positive experiences than negetive ones.

I never quite understand native/non-native Taiwanese deal. To me everyone has always been the same, so maybe it is hard for me to relate and understand. I too have a blue passport.

I meet up with a shanghainese girl with another Shanghainese NSXer down in San Diego yesterday after picking up nsx parts from Mark Johnson. The girl treated us to dinner. She kept on given him a hard time for not being able to speak Shangahinese and doesn't consider him a Shanghainese. He was all smiling and having a blast as far as I can tell.

How he handled the situation was the difference between having a good time and having a bad time. That was a good lesson for me.

I come to a conclusion it is not worth the stress. Let it flow, care a little less and let it be, whatever the future may hold. Enjoy the postive things.

 

[Mike-san]

This is on Yahoo news this morning :
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070930/ap_on_re_as/taiwan_politics