Tire wear at the track

[SoCal-NSX]

I read the FAQ about track tires vs stock so I'll probably start with street tires while I get used to the car. How 'new' do streeet tires need to be before it's a hazard. If they are at the wear bars, does it make a big difference on a dry track?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Edo]

You can run street tires past their wear bars but I would NOT recommend it.
They aren't made for it, and the wear bars are there for a reason. I typically dont hit the track unless my tires have a MINIMUM of 20% tread left.
I usually use about 40-50% of the tread off my street tires in 1 event.

 

[SoCal-NSX]

Wow, 40-50% is about $500 on street tires. I guess you don't hit the track every weekend.

I just got the car and want to take it to a track with an instructor in the car and have him 'teach' me how to drive it. I was trying to work out the economics of that vs the Bob Bondurant school which my buddy did and loved. It's about 4K for 2 days but you use their cars, tires, gas, etc.

Any recommendations, thoughts?

Thanks for your help,
Dave

 

[Edo]

GO TO BONDURANT!!
TRUST ME.
I went to Bondurant and I find myself improving at the track faster and better than guys who have never been to pro driving school and have been to 30+ track events.

GO TO BONDURANT.
GO TO BONDURANT
I cannot STRESS how important this is.
GO TO BONDURANT

 

[ak]

Isn't Bondurant like $2000?

 

[SoCal-NSX]

So you're saying....go to Bondurant?

Grand Prix Road Racing
4 Days: $3,775 http://www.bondurant.com/Courses.html
This is the course my buddies did - some of them several times.

There's other ones that are less days but I'd like to learn as much as I can while there.

Thanks!
Dave

 

[maomaonsx]

40-50% wear?

------------------
G Dummy~

Faster than stock.

 

[nsxtasy]

A couple of points here:

1. People mistakenly think that street tires grip better on the track when they're worn, because they're "like slicks". The reason slicks grip better is because they're made of supersoft compound, not because they have no tread. Don't use street tires on the track if they're worn down to the treadbars.

2. My experience is totally inconsistent with that "40-50% in 1 event" claim. I use my NSX primarily for track events, as well as street/highway miles driving to and from the events. On each of the first eight sets of rear Yokohama A022H 225/50ZR16 tires I used, I averaged 3500 total miles including 585 actual track miles per set. The first three sets of front A022H 205/50ZR15 tires averaged 9800 total miles including 1600 track miles per set.

My guess, based on my experience, is that track miles probably use up tread 3-4 times as fast as street miles. However, that means that a single track event, consisting of 150 actual track miles, might be the equivalent of 450-600 street miles; hardly enough to use up 40-50% of the tread.

 

[Edo]

Nsxtasy, I think maybe my estimate of 40-50% was high. Its more like 25-30%(at most)
I don't know how you manage to get your tires to last that as long you do but please tell me. I eat tires for lunch at the track.
I know that I have significantly more aggressive alignment settings than stock which might impact my tire wear a bit, especially when they get very hot.

Do tires (Like brake's) wear faster when they are hot?

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
A couple of points here:

1. People mistakenly think that street tires grip better on the track when they're worn, because they're "like slicks". The reason slicks grip better is because they're made of supersoft compound, not because they have no tread. Don't use street tires on the track if they're worn down to the treadbars.

It doesn't grip better. But less tread means the tire response better and crisper. Thus better on the track.

2. My experience is totally inconsistent with that "40-50% in 1 event" claim. I use my NSX primarily for track events, as well as street/highway miles driving to and from the events. On each of the first eight sets of rear Yokohama A022H 225/50ZR16 tires I used, I averaged 3500 total miles including 585 actual track miles per set. The first three sets of front A022H 205/50ZR15 tires averaged 9800 total miles including 1600 track miles per set.

Mine last quite a long time as well. I remember, my Nitto 555 lasted 7 events.

My guess, based on my experience, is that track miles probably use up tread 3-4 times as fast as street miles. However, that means that a single track event, consisting of 150 actual track miles, might be the equivalent of 450-600 street miles; hardly enough to use up 40-50% of the tread.

Good duess.

 

[nsxtasy]

I don't know how you manage to get your tires to last that as long you do but please tell me.

I drive the car fairly hard (I think most folks who have seen me at the track would agree) albeit consistently under control.

I set the pressures when the tires are cold, then usually leave them alone unless they don't feel good.

However, those numbers were from the first nine years I owned the car, when I was using the OEM street tires on the track. The last couple of years, I've started swapping to track tires for the track.

I eat tires for lunch at the track.

That's not a good idea. They don't taste that good, and they're chewy, almost... rubbery.

I know that I have significantly more aggressive alignment settings than stock which might impact my tire wear a bit, especially when they get very hot.

I use the original, aggressive (tire-consuming) alignment settings from '91, before Acura changed their recommendation.

Do tires (Like brake's) wear faster when they are hot?

I'm sure they do. But I think tires always get hot on the track, no?

Don't use street tires on the track if they're worn down to the treadbars.

It doesn't grip better. But less tread means the tire response better and crisper. Thus better on the track.

Not beyond a certain point, IMO. Street tires that are worn down to the treadbars don't grip as well as street tires that have more tread to them. Even when the track is dry (and of course even more so if there's any moisture about).

 

[maomaonsx]

I know that I have significantly more aggressive alignment settings than stock which might impact my tire wear a bit,

If you have a more aggressive alignment set-up, then your tire wear should be less compared to a stock aligned car at the track. The reason is that at the track you will actually use all that camber and get more even wear on the tires. Unless of course, you don't drive any faster or harder than street driving, which I don't think is the case for you, Edo. I think you just over estimated it a bit, or were you heating up the the tires with a torch to get better traction?

------------------
G Dummy~

Faster than stock.

 

[Edo]

I think my alignment specs are even a bit more aggressive than the original '91 specs.
And yes I get even tire wear as I should, but I do not get long life out of them I think.
I think I just need to buy track tires. Using street tires on the track just isn't as fun.

I think my original estimate was probably just an big OVER estimate.

 

[nsxtasy]

I'm sure you know that track tires will wear faster than street tires, so you'll undoubtedly get fewer miles on the track tires than you're getting now.

And different models of track tires vary, from the stickiest and quickest-wearing Hoosier R3S03, through the Kumho V700 Victoracer middle ground, to the longest-lasting (and still fairly sticky) Yokohama A032R.

 

[scott]

Alignment specs have a huge difference on tire wear. I had an extra inch of toe out on mine and burned off a set of rears in about 700mi. Not intentional. Now I have the post 97?(I can't remember the exact year) alingment spec(less agressive) and have much better wear. Although not quite as solid on the turn in

The whole point of the 97 alignment spec is to save tires. I would guess you probably shave off about ~1/16 inch of tread at the track.

As far as bald street tires... I tried that too and they are slick as s#$%. I don't know what the physics are but the ass end of my ride fish tails with bald street tires on dry pavement as compared to tires with tread.

 

[Soichiro]

Don't use brand new tires at the track either, especially if you plan on driving sideways (sliding) for any amount of time. I destroyed a new set in 200 miles when an entire row of tread blocks chunked and ripped out of the tire. For my next set I bought tires that were shaved and these lasted longer -800 miles- but they wore properly and did not chunk. Needless to say I'm on very good terms with The Tire Rack!