Tires have been discussed - now BRAKES :)

[captainjman]

I would like to thank everyone for their help on my post "what tires are you using". Now that is over I would like to start one about breaks..

I guess I am working on my car from the ground up. Wheels and tires are great now, but the brakes really need attention. Chris at SOS told me that the nasty high pitch squeak I am hearing is most likely from part 25 & 20 from this diagram:
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray...T&catcgry5=FRONT+BRAKE&ListAll=All&vinsrch=no

I had my rotors looked at and they are near their end of life, so I got some cheap pads to tide me over until I get new rotors because I was always under the assumption that you shouldn't continue to use your old pads on new rotors or vice versa. (is this correct?)

I was thinking about getting a BBK kit, but that costs 6K for a full set.. which would solve both my problems but thats a lot of money! I may track the car some day, but not right away. They look really nice, but its a waste of money if you don't need them, right? Maybe just new rotors and pads and fix the squeak with those parts and paint the calipers to dress it up a bit?

So here are my questions:
1. What drilled & slotted rotors are people buying these days?
2. What pads?
3. Feedback on the SOS caliper painting kits?
4. When are BBK's needed?

I did a search for past threads on rotors and pads and many of the mentioned items are discontinued and links broken. I thought this would be a good time to make a new thread to update the info out there.

For instance, I came across this: http://brakeperformance.com/brake-rotors/Premium-Dimpled-and-Slotted-Brake-Rotors.php

Does it really matter these are no-name rotors? What do you look for in a rotor? Are there certain pads not to use with certain rotors?

Jason

 

[MrHugo]

Jason, there is actually quiet a bit of information here on prime about the brakes. However, you just have to dig deeper since the search engine here does not work too well sometimes.

I, myself, was looking for brakes upgrade too, but mainly for weight reduction. Here are some of the typical responds to your questions that I have found with my research here on Prime:

- OEM brakes are more than good enough for the street and occasional track events
- Good pads, fluid, SS lines, proven brands rotors, and some ducting often will be more than you can handle
- Stopping power is limited to your tires, not your brakes
- On the track, unless you are encountering fading with strict track pads, 2 piece rotors, ducting, cut out dust shield, then maybe you need BBK
- 2 piece rotors are lighter, dissipate heat faster, trying to buy from name brands like project U, stoptech. They are expensive.
- Not much performance difference as for plain, drilled and/or slotted, types of rotors

That's what I have found so far. I don't know much about BBK since I wasn't researching on that. If you want the looks, go for the BBK, or paint your calipers with bigger size rotors and brackets.

After your brakes, I guess you are going to upgrade your suspension.:biggrin: There is a bunch of information here too about suspension. Just throwing out at you, Bilstein shocks with aftermarket lowering springs on lowest perch is a very popular choice here on Prime. Comfortable, handles ok, priced right, and most importantly, looks good. I myself I have the OEM NA2-R suspension

Good luck researching,:wink:
Hugo

 

[nsxtasy]

Hugo has already posted some good advice. Basically, it's often better to take incremental steps which may fix any problems you're having, rather than spend a huge amount which might not be necessary.

In your case, I recommend that you simply get your stock brake system in good working order - meaning, get some new pads (stock pads or a street/track pad like the Hawk HP+), new rotors (stock rotors or maybe Powerslots), and good brake fluid (such as Motul RBF 600), and you're good to go, without spending an arm and a leg.

To answer your questions...

I had my rotors looked at and they are near their end of life, so I got some cheap pads to tide me over until I get new rotors because I was always under the assumption that you shouldn't continue to use your old pads on new rotors or vice versa. (is this correct?)

No, that's not correct. And cheap pads are really a bad idea on the NSX! Stick with either stock pads, or aftermarket pads that offer a performance upgrade. You really don't want to end up regretting putting cheap pads on the car!

1. What drilled & slotted rotors are people buying these days?

I've found no advantage to drilled or slotted rotors (and I've used both). But the Powerslot slotted rotors are reasonably priced. Or you can go with stock rotors.

2. What pads?

That depends on how you're going to use them. For a mix of street and track use, I like the Hawk HP+. They can stand up to the heat generated on the track, and they don't have major squealing on the street. They dust a lot, though. If you want a low-dust pad, consider the stock pads. If you want a higher-performance pad for track use, you can get more aggressive track pads, but they typically have downsides for the street (major squealing, don't grip when cold, etc).

4. When are BBK's needed?

Only if you are still having problems with the stock setup with aftermarket upgrades for pads, rotors, and fluid - which is unlikely for most of us. Or, if you want them for the bling bling.

Are there certain pads not to use with certain rotors?

No.

 

[SFNSXguy]

What nsxtacy said... but also -- slotted rotors WILL wear pads faster than drilled or non-drilled ones, and drilled rotors WILL crack eventually.

If you replace the rotors due to wear, look at aftermarket versions (like BBS) instead of the OEM rotors. I've been told by reliable sources that the metallurgy is better. (Maybe less prone to "warp".)

I have BBS rotors now and they seem slightly better than the stock rotors -- I got the cross-drilled hoping for better cooling (and the bling) I'm pretty sure they will crack before they are "worn our" (moderate number of track days each year).

And I like the stock pads -- best compromise.... and the Motul fluid.

 

[Brylek]

What about the brake lines? do you suggest upgrading them to steel lines?

 

[SFNSXguy]

Braided steel lines are always a good idea.

 

[Brylek]

This is my problem, when I was going for a open track day with my Mitsubishi Lancer evolution everyone told me that i'll be ok. When i went it took my rakes 10 minutes to fade. I was on stock Brembo 4 piston calipers and some hawk pads with factory rotors and stock brake fluid. During lunch brake i changed the brake fluid and it still took 10 minutes for my brakes to fade. So this season I have a NSX again and i don't want the same drama again.

 

[CL65 Captain]

This is my problem, when I was going for a open track day with my Mitsubishi Lancer evolution everyone told me that i'll be ok. When i went it took my rakes 10 minutes to fade. I was on stock Brembo 4 piston calipers and some hawk pads with factory rotors and stock brake fluid. During lunch brake i changed the brake fluid and it still took 10 minutes for my brakes to fade. So this season I have a NSX again and i don't want the same drama again.

What Hawks? Hawk HPS? Ya, they'll fade. Also the Evo OEM Brembo is NOT the same as an aftermarket Brembo kit.

Go with Hawk HP+ all the way around or DTC60 F and HP+ rear.

or Carbotech XP10/8s or see what/if Performance Friction makes for the NSX's size.

 

[Brylek]

You're saying that replacing just the pads with hawk HP+(or others mentioned) all the way around and not touching the rest(rotors, lines, calipers) on a CTSC'd NSX will be OK for 30 minutes of constant "abuse" and the brakes won't fade?

 

[SFNSXguy]

I might say "yeah," but if your braking technique is one more suited to a Formula Ford, then "no."

Assuming your braking points are reasonable, then no problem. But I would do the Motul fluid too. Do the brake lines when you get a chance.

 

[Nick675]

You're saying that replacing just the pads with hawk HP+(or others mentioned) all the way around and not touching the rest(rotors, lines, calipers) on a CTSC'd NSX will be OK for 30 minutes of constant "abuse" and the brakes won't fade?

Yes just the HP+ and new high temp fluid (in my case ATE Super Blue) and you won't see any fade.

I have yet to see any fade since going this route.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[Larry Bastanza]

This is my problem, when I was going for a open track day with my Mitsubishi Lancer evolution everyone told me that i'll be ok. When i went it took my rakes 10 minutes to fade. I was on stock Brembo 4 piston calipers and some hawk pads with factory rotors and stock brake fluid. During lunch brake i changed the brake fluid and it still took 10 minutes for my brakes to fade. So this season I have a NSX again and i don't want the same drama again.

DOT3 brake fluid is wrong for this application, especially if it has any age to it at all. If you use good FRESH DOT4 fluid (Motul600, ATE Blue, etc) you can wear your stock pads down to the backing plate with no fade.

My $.02

Regards,
LarryB

 

[captainjman]

Jason, there is actually quiet a bit of information here on prime about the brakes. However, you just have to dig deeper since the search engine here does not work too well sometimes.

I, myself, was looking for brakes upgrade too, but mainly for weight reduction. Here are some of the typical responds to your questions that I have found with my research here on Prime:

- OEM brakes are more than good enough for the street and occasional track events
- Good pads, fluid, SS lines, proven brands rotors, and some ducting often will be more than you can handle
- Stopping power is limited to your tires, not your brakes
- On the track, unless you are encountering fading with strict track pads, 2 piece rotors, ducting, cut out dust shield, then maybe you need BBK
- 2 piece rotors are lighter, dissipate heat faster, trying to buy from name brands like project U, stoptech. They are expensive.
- Not much performance difference as for plain, drilled and/or slotted, types of rotors

That's what I have found so far. I don't know much about BBK since I wasn't researching on that. If you want the looks, go for the BBK, or paint your calipers with bigger size rotors and brackets.

After your brakes, I guess you are going to upgrade your suspension.:biggrin: There is a bunch of information here too about suspension. Just throwing out at you, Bilstein shocks with aftermarket lowering springs on lowest perch is a very popular choice here on Prime. Comfortable, handles ok, priced right, and most importantly, looks good. I myself I have the OEM NA2-R suspension

Good luck researching,:wink:
Hugo

You are right Hugo, next would be the suspension. I think the wheels look a little funny with such a large gap in the wheel well. I don't want issues with speed bumps and inclines (I scrape the front as it is already), but if I could get the gap fixed that would be great. But thats the next thread :biggrin:

I think the BBK's look great, but buying them for looks alone is idiotic for someone with my limited finances. I am not poor, but to spend 6000 on brakes for looks alone doesn't seem to be a good cost-benefit balance. They do look fantastic though, don't they? I saw on Ebay fake brembo caliper covers, but I am not really into knock offs. It seems kinda shallow... that is, unless everyone else is doing it LOL

Sounds like Stainless steel brake lines and motul fluid is relatively inexpensive. Then some Hawk HP+ pads and paint the calipers. The only thing left is brand of drilled rotors. I know they will eventually crack but they look fantastic! I will track my car eventually, and even then, just once or twice a year (at the most). Are these microscopic cracks or ones you can see before a catastrophic failure?

As for the squeek, before I order those parts (number 20 & 25 in that diagram) have any of you had a bad squeak and fixed it by replacing those parts? Can it be something else?

Thanks
J

 

[Brylek]

DOT3 brake fluid is wrong for this application, especially if it has any age to it at all. If you use good FRESH DOT4 fluid (Motul600, ATE Blue, etc) you can wear your stock pads down to the backing plate with no fade.

My $.02

Regards,
LarryB

I changed the fluid (super racing blue or something like that) during the day and it still took 10 to 12 minutes for it to cook again. I did have an instructor in the car and he told me that I was an agressive driver but I was still mad that it took so little time and then I had to go easy for the next few minutes to regain any braking power. The worst part is that when I was having fun passing everyone in my way I was affraid that i could lose my brakes again any minute.

There was a funny story to it as well. When I lost my brakes the first time you could say that I went into a corner a little faster than usually so my instructor said "Yeah, you finally came in fast and came out wide like i told you to". His smile disapeared when i let him know that we have no brakes...

From what I understand, the main key while at the track is to upgrade pads to a kind that doesn't produce as much heat on to the whole system which as a final effect cooks the fluid.

 

[CL65 Captain]

Are these microscopic cracks or ones you can see before a catastrophic failure?

Just little ones, like this. 97+ rotors are harder to find and more expensive than earlier years because I believe the yearly years use the same size as the Lengend. We're kind of screwed. There are some semi cheap slotted but I don't think I have seen any OEM 97+ size cross-drilled expect for one company that wanted like $1000 F/R for ONE PC rotors which was a TOTAL ripoff.

 

[captainjman]

Just little ones, like this. 97+ rotors are harder to find and more expensive than earlier years because I believe the yearly years use the same size as the Lengend. We're kind of screwed. There are some semi cheap slotted but I don't think I have seen any OEM 97+ size cross-drilled expect for one company that wanted like $1000 F/R for ONE PC rotors which was a TOTAL ripoff.

What about these? I am not sure if they are name brand or not, but would it be worth a try? Item Remove Quantity Price Total

CS-40043 Cross-Drilled and Slotted Brake Rotors Front Two Rotor Set (Silver)
Year: 1997
Make: Acura
Model: NSX
Detail:
Set(s)
$344.50 $344.50

CS-40044 Cross-Drilled and Slotted Brake Rotors Rear Two Rotor Set (Silver)
Year: 1997
Make: Acura
Model: NSX
Detail:
Set(s)
$315.49 $315.49
Sub Total
$659.99

http://brakeperformance.com

 

[SFNSXguy]

These are slotted (I actually prefer drilled -- slotted wear pads faster, but these are only $440 a set):

http://daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=1768

These are a little more:

http://www.scienceofspeed.com/produ...arts/NSX/Racing_Brake/NA2_replacement_rotors/

 

[stuntman]

From what I understand, the main key while at the track is to upgrade pads to a kind that doesn't produce as much heat on to the whole system which as a final effect cooks the fluid.

I think the issue you were having was due to pad fade (post bleeding your brakes with fresh/good fluid) - due to inadequate pads. You need a pad with a proper amount of "mu"/friction at a higher operating range than the pads you were using. Typically you usually don't boil your brake fluid unless it is inadequate or not bled in a long time (lowers the boiling temperature). Your caliper and fluid don't see the same potential 1,000-1,400*F temps your rotor face/pads see under heavy use but rather rarely get above 350-400*F.


Like the tires, it really depends on YOUR intended uses. Also, what engine modifications/power level are you going to have?

There are compromises in every setup you go with. But fresh DOT4 high performance brake fluid, stainless steel lines, and a good streetable track pad or trackable street pad -again depending on the compromise, is often good for 99% of the drivers (even FI that goes to the track) out there. Try that route and if you prove it does not suffice for your skill set/uses, then go from there.

Just little ones, like this. 97+ rotors are harder to find and more expensive than earlier years because I believe the yearly years use the same size as the Lengend. We're kind of screwed. There are some semi cheap slotted but I don't think I have seen any OEM 97+ size cross-drilled expect for one company that wanted like $1000 F/R for ONE PC rotors which was a TOTAL ripoff.

What pads were you using?

 

[DRIFTER]

In your case, I recommend that you simply get your stock brake system in good working order - meaning, get some new pads (stock pads or a street/track pad like the Hawk HP+), new rotors (stock rotors or maybe Powerslots), and good brake fluid (such as Motul RBF 600), and you're good to go, without spending an arm and a leg.

I took this advice a few years ago and saved myself a ton of money.

I went with the Hawk HP+ pads, good brake fluid, and new OEM rotors and a set of coated SS brake lines; and it made a world of a difference. If you have issues with heat at the track remove the factory metal shield behind the rotor and install larger brake air deflectors.

BBK is more for bling then anything. Our cars are light they don't need breaks designed to stop a semi. + larger brakes slow your car down.

As far as paint I took them off the car when doing the SS lines and pads cleaned them off with some brake clean, ruffed them up with a scotch bright pad and hit them with some high temp grill paint from Lowe's.

 

[CL65 Captain]

BBK is more for bling then anything. Our cars are light they don't need breaks designed to stop a semi. + larger brakes slow your car down.

Well, not exactly. A Miata at 2000 lbs is light, a NSX at 3000 lbs not so much so. Most people who buy a BBK do, do it for bling. However, brakes turn kinetic energy into heat. If you want proof that my BBK isn't for bling, then take a look at the Brembo GT logo that has turned from white to gold and now has started to fade away from the extreme heat. Having a BBK on the front AND Dali cooling deflectors AND cooling hoses from the front to the rotor has helped my front rotors last a whole season, instead of two months.

Is a BBK necessary for the average novice or intermediate to take the car to the track - no, not at all. But if you want to brake with the best of them.... :wink:

 

[captainjman]

Well, not exactly. A Miata at 2000 lbs is light, a NSX at 3000 lbs not so much so. Most people who buy a BBK do, do it for bling. However, brakes turn kinetic energy into heat. If you want proof that my BBK isn't for bling, then take a look at the Brembo GT logo that has turned from white to gold and now has started to fade away from the extreme heat. Having a BBK on the front AND Dali cooling deflectors AND cooling hoses from the front to the rotor has helped my front rotors last a whole season, instead of two months.

Is a BBK necessary for the average novice or intermediate to take the car to the track - no, not at all. But if you want to brake with the best of them.... :wink:

Well, I guess I should tell everyone exactly what my priorities are in order:

1. Get rid of that annoying squealing. Its embarassing to drive up in a nice car like ours, and have brakes that sound like they are on a jalopie being held together by rust and duct tape. I cant tell you how many times Ive noticed people look at my car coming towards them, then the brakes start squeaking and they make a sour face... YES ITS THAT LOUD!!! horrific

2. For now Bling - Yes, I do care how my car looks. I know that sounds vain, but at least Im not putting fake brembo caliper covers on. Im not trying to be something I am not... But I do like the look of the red calipers and drilled rotors. Maybe even drilled&slotted. I just don't want to spend 6k on brakes - yet

3. Stopping power. God I feel funny puting this last. Of course I need functional brakes but what I am saying is that I don't track the car every weekend. I know that brakes make a car faster on a track.. but I am not tracking yet. I will be adding a turbo or SC next winter, so I will need some extra braking power eventually, but for now I would say item 1&2 are the most important to me.

Jason

 

[nsxtasy]

slotted rotors WILL wear pads faster than drilled or non-drilled ones, and drilled rotors WILL crack eventually.

Not true, in my experience. I've kept detailed records of how long (how many track miles as well as overall miles) each set of pads and rotors has lasted. I've used slotted rotors, drilled rotors, and solid-faced rotors, and there has been no difference between types in the life of the rotors (they all eventually crack) or the life of the pads. Of course, no difference means that there is no inherent advantage as well as no disadvantage. (The one type of rotor that has lasted significantly longer is two-piece rotors, in which the outer "ring" is a separate piece from the inner "hat" and connected by special hardware which allows the outer ring to expand as it gets hot. But those are considerably more expensive.)

What about the brake lines? do you suggest upgrading them to steel lines?

No. The only reason people claim for stainless steel brake lines is to eliminate a squishy-feeling brake pedal. I've never had a squishy-feeling brake pedal on my heavily-tracked '91 NSX, with stock brake lines (although a couple of years ago I replaced the brake lines with new stock ones, strictly as a preventive measure).

This is my problem, when I was going for a open track day with my Mitsubishi Lancer evolution everyone told me that i'll be ok. When i went it took my rakes 10 minutes to fade. I was on stock Brembo 4 piston calipers and some hawk pads with factory rotors and stock brake fluid. During lunch brake i changed the brake fluid and it still took 10 minutes for my brakes to fade. So this season I have a NSX again and i don't want the same drama again.

The most common reason for brake pads to fade is because they've never been brought up to track temperatures before. This phenomenon is sometimes called "green pad syndrome" and is common among many different types of brake pads. The first time they get really hot, they "outgas" which results in fading. So you might experience fading in your first track session (20-30 minutes), and maybe in your second track session, but then they're good for the remaining life of the pad. You can avoid this to some extent by bedding the pads before taking them to the track; a proper bedding procedure will develop similar temperatures and get the outgassing done ahead of time. That's what I've done with the Hawk HP+ pads, and I almost never have problems with fading, unless something else is a problem with the car/brakes.

You're saying that replacing just the pads with hawk HP+(or others mentioned) all the way around and not touching the rest(rotors, lines, calipers) on a CTSC'd NSX will be OK for 30 minutes of constant "abuse" and the brakes won't fade?

If the pads have previously been bedded and/or tracked a few sessions, that's correct.

DOT3 brake fluid is wrong for this application, especially if it has any age to it at all. If you use good FRESH DOT4 fluid (Motul600, ATE Blue, etc) you can wear your stock pads down to the backing plate with no fade.

Yup. Incidentally, the ability of brake fluid to resist boiling is specified by its dry boiling point (for fluid out of a freshly-opened bottle) and wet boiling point (after it's been in the car for a while and had the chance to absorb moisture, which it will do). Motul RBF 600 actually has a dry boiling point (594F) high enough to qualify as a DOT 5 or DOT 5.1 fluid, but they specify it as DOT 4 for other reasons.

Well, I guess I should tell everyone exactly what my priorities are in order:

Get your brakes serviced by a good mechanic who knows a little bit about tracking, and that should eliminate your squealing. (Many brake pads designed for the track also squeal, but from your comments it sounds like the cause is something else.)

As for stopping power, in most cases your stopping power depends a lot more on the quality of your tires than your brakes. You can't outbrake the amount of traction that your tires can maintain. But what better brakes will do is allow you to maintain the same stopping power even as the brakes heat up, instead of having reduced power when they get hot.

 

[s14_tat]

I think stock brake pads with slotted rotors will do the job for your needs. HP +'s are great pads, its like a night and day difference in response and feel, but they get noisey when hot, and they dust like a mofo. I have to clean my wheels every other day.

 

[nsxtasy]

I think stock brake pads with slotted rotors will do the job for your needs.

Yup. Actually, I think stock brake pads with stock rotors will do the job too.

HP +'s are great pads, its like a night and day difference in response and feel, but they get noisey when hot, and they dust like a mofo. I have to clean my wheels every other day.

Mine dust a lot (reddish color dust) but they don't get noisy, not even on the track.

 

[SFNSXguy]

I've kept detailed records of how long (how many track miles as well as overall miles) each set of pads and rotors has lasted. I've used slotted rotors, drilled rotors, and solid-faced rotors, and there has been no difference between types in the life of the rotors (they all eventually crack) or the life of the pads. Of course, no difference means that there is no inherent advantage as well as no disadvantage.

Interesting. Not my experience.