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Tires have been discussed - now BRAKES :)

I also went through about the brake question last year and kept the advise of the guys here so..

1. OEM calipers
2. Good pads
3. Good fluid (Motul RBF600)
4. Air deflector for cooling
5. Proper bedding what you can find here and it is very very important!
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_bedintheory.shtml
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_bedinstock.shtml
6. 3 hot lap than 1 cooling lap on a track

Whit this setup and 230/610 R17 slicks on the front and 30/65 R18 slick at the back I had no problem. The track is fast enough (braking from 210km/h to 70km/h without any problem)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LzYfHqiyz8
 
I recently visited STMPO and Ross taught me how to make my very own brake duct.

There are 3 layers and just for the hell of it I choose to have fiberglass as the middle layer.

That and the EBC Redstuff, SS braided lines, Amsoil DOT4, and x-drilled/slotted rotors and I really don't feel a need to go with the BBK for hard street usage.
 

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Justin,

I've heard nothing but praises from the GTO guys on these:

DBA%20Rotor%205000.jpg


http://www.dba.com.au/

Tirerack sells them:

http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brand.jsp?brand=DBA
 
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A lot of really good info on this thread from some pretty knowledgeable guys. I'll throw in my 2 cents. :)

Before I go into details, remember that Bobby Rahal commented during his NSX development drives that that stock brakes were superb. That guy knows a thing or two about high-performance driving and you should start with that in mind before spending thousands of dollars on brake upgrades. Perhaps the money may be better spent on improving the driver...just a suggestion. Skip Barber runs some nice programs- ask Billy.

Now to the brakes- your brake component level is totally dependent on your application.

1. For a street-driven NSX on stock or near stock power (i.e., I/H/E), the stock brakes with stock pads are more than enough.

2. For an aggressive street-driven NSX on stock or near stock power , you may want to think about getting some more aggressive pads (Hawk HPS, Project Mu Type NS, etc.) and perhaps some high-temp DOT4 fluid. Btw, I do not consider "aggressive street-driven" to mean stoplight racing, 120 mph on the freeway, or doing burnouts in the Home Depot parking lot. Instead, I mean driving that will dump a lot of heat into the brakes, like canyon carving, togue mountain runs, etc.

3. For a track-driven NSX on stock or near stock power, good track pads that can give you a good Mu coefficient at high rotor temps are a must. Some examples are Carbotech XP10/8, Hawk HP+ and Project Mu LEVEL MAX 700/900. Some of these pads are not so great at colder temps, so be careful. Many people use a dedicated set of track pads for this reason. High temp DOT4 fluid is also critical. Many people also use brake deflectors or ducting to get some more airflow across the rotors. Like Billy mentioned, this setup is more than enough brake for 99% of track drivers and can easily handle a 20 or 30 minute HPDE session.

4. For a turbo or SC NSX on the track, this is where the BBK really comes in in my book. These cars, with 500 or 600whp, are pushing the stock brake design far beyond what Honda intended, so they need to be upgraded. Any of the options are good, but I particularly like the Stoptech offering because it is tuned to the NSX brake balance out of the box. Other options (Brembo, etc.) may require adding brake bias adjusters in order to settle the car.

As for rotors, solid blanks are the best. A brake rotor is a heat sink and the more metal mass there is, the more heat it can hold. Any time you remove metal from the rotor (either by drilling and/or slotting) you are reducing the size of your heat sink, which means it will heat up faster and stay hotter. Drilling can lead to stress cracks and slotting is not really necessary with today's pad compounds, which do not outgas like older pad materials. Drilling might look cool, but this is one of those rare times where the cheaper option (solid blanks) is actually better for your car.

Given your posts, I think #2 or 3 above would be just fine.
 
Yup. Actually, I think stock brake pads with stock rotors will do the job too.


Mine dust a lot (reddish color dust) but they don't get noisy, not even on the track.

Well I suggested slotted rotors because bling is also pretty high on his priorty list.
 
Hey Alan they only make 4000 series and only for the front. I was thinking of the ones from SOS for the bigger rotors all the way around. Right now I have powerslots with project mu pad ss lines and air ducts. It works good just thought about something bigger cuz the stock size look very small with the 18/19's I have.







Justin,

I've heard nothing but praises from the GTO guys on these:

DBA%20Rotor%205000.jpg


http://www.dba.com.au/

Tirerack sells them:

http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brand.jsp?brand=DBA
 
Drilling can lead to stress cracks and slotting is not really necessary with today's pad compounds, which do not outgas like older pad materials. Drilling might look cool, but this is one of those rare times where the cheaper option (solid blanks) is actually better for your car.
In my experience, all rotors - drilled, slotted, and solid-faced - develop stress cracks. They start looking like little spider webby cracks, and then actual cracks in a radial direction start to open up. Once the cracks are more than about 1/2" and you can feel them with the edge of your fingernail (only do this when they're cold :) ), that's when I replace them. (Also note that the cracks tend to fill in when the brakes are hot, and open up as they cool off, so you're more likely to feel them at pit-out than as a session goes on.) On cross-drilled rotors, the drill holes give the cracks a place to form, but they don't form any quicker than with slotted or solid-faced rotors, in my experience. Again, though, I haven't seen any advantages to cross-drilled rotors, so if you find that equivalent quality solid-faced rotors are cheaper, by all means get them!
 
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My experience with cross-drilled rotors is that my cracks went from the holes up to and over the edge of the rotor so I pulled them. This happened after two track weekends. They weren't cheap rotors either. They were the Brembo rotors that came with my Brembo GT kit.
 
I recently visited STMPO and Ross taught me how to make my very own brake duct.

There are 3 layers and just for the hell of it I choose to have fiberglass as the middle layer.

That and the EBC Redstuff, SS braided lines, Amsoil DOT4, and x-drilled/slotted rotors and I really don't feel a need to go with the BBK for hard street usage.
Keep an eye on those EBC Redstuff. I've only used them once on a previous car and they were on the backing plate within a few thousand miles. I'm not sure why or the answer but better be safe than sorry - keep an eye on the thickness.


My NSX has Panther Plus pads, stock rotors (that came with the car) ATE Superblue fluid and SS lines. They were adequate for me going 10/10ths in a 20 minute session with one of the best street tires on the market (235/265). I would venture to say this package would be good enough for 99% of the supercharged cars out there on track due to how most of them attack (or don't) the brakes. I'm not criticizing anyone or pointing anyone out but i've generally seen drivers who can and do push the brakes to the limit rarely have FI, and most FI cars don't push the stock brakes (given said modifications) beyond their limit and thus don't need a BBK.

There are exceptions to every rule, and there are some drivers with FI who do need the added heat disappation of a BBK, but they are very rare. Are there NA NSXs outbraking you? Are you braking before the braking reference markers (number boards) even start?

Try to put your (generally speaking) ego aside and see if your skill set and abilities requires a BBK. An honest evaluation may save you a lot of money.

0.02
 
With what Honcho and Billy say about rotors and pads - it should be quite obvious by now that most will never find a need for better than OEM brakes and that seems to be the case even with an SC on the car. I believe that's what Eiffel runs anyway and he has an SC and tracks his car.

Someone and more than one has said - if your trying to go fast - spend some bucks on learning how to do that first! We're talking all this track stuff here and most use their cars stricktly on the road anyway. You have a nice car - running it hard on a track is just going to add a bunch of rock chips to your front. But that may be what you bought it for - just sayin.

I would love to get out on a track for one reason - just to use the whole roadway in front of me - not worry about "soccer moms", driveways, stoplights and folks coming at me - everyone going in the same direction - and no interuptions - boy that sounds nice. I've found vacant stretches as we all have but still there is that threat of a cop or something coming around the corner - whatever. But a couple of less than super hot laps is what that would be for most I bet.

I hope to join the PCA this year at Road Atlanta for a DE day - only costs about 375 for the weekend. They don't mind if I bring my NSX. Going to have to do that this year when I get mine all tuned up suspension and tire wise. Still I won't be making this a regular practice cause I can't afford it. So I'll most likely keep looking for that vacant stretch of road....:wink:
 
In my experience, all rotors - drilled, slotted, and solid-faced - develop stress cracks. They start looking like little spider webby cracks, and then actual cracks in a radial direction start to open up. Once the cracks are more than about 1/2" and you can feel them with the edge of your fingernail (only do this when they're cold :) ), that's when I replace them. (Also note that the cracks tend to fill in when the brakes are hot, and open up as they cool off, so you're more likely to feel them at pit-out than as a session goes on.) On cross-drilled rotors, the drill holes give the cracks a place to form, but they don't form any quicker than with slotted or solid-faced rotors, in my experience. Again, though, I haven't seen any advantages to cross-drilled rotors, so if you find that equivalent quality solid-faced rotors are cheaper, by all means get them!

My experience with cross-drilled rotors is that my cracks went from the holes up to and over the edge of the rotor so I pulled them. This happened after two track weekends. They weren't cheap rotors either. They were the Brembo rotors that came with my Brembo GT kit.

I haven't had any cracks in the 20 years that I've been using x-drilled/slotted rotors. My cars are not full-time track cars, Perhaps track a couple times a year and autox too.

I do have a habit of replacing the rotors and pads instead of resurfacing the rotors. Do you guys do that too?



Keep an eye on those EBC Redstuff. I've only used them once on a previous car and they were on the backing plate within a few thousand miles. I'm not sure why or the answer but better be safe than sorry - keep an eye on the thickness......

EBC changed their formula a while ago. Forgot what the complaint or reasons were.

I have 100k+ miles of EBC redstuff experience between 3 cars that I own or have owned. Been very happy with them.
 
I haven't had any cracks in the 20 years that I've been using x-drilled/slotted rotors. My cars are not full-time track cars, Perhaps track a couple times a year and autox too.

I do have a habit of replacing the rotors and pads instead of resurfacing the rotors. Do you guys do that too?

I do not resurface them, because I crack them way before that. My car is not a dedicated track car but I did do 12+ weekends last year. Autocross doesn't count because you are not going to get the rotors hot from braking at 40 mph compared to 120+ at the track. If you have 20 + years of using x-drilled rotors with no cracking, then you are not braking to the full potential of the car. Braking = speed ----> heat ----> cracking rotors.

car-photo-2006-ferrari-fxx-rolling-shot-hot-brakes.jpg
Cracked_Brembo_f98379f8096dd95cf33a_1.jpg


EBC changed their formula a while ago. Forgot what the complaint or reasons were.

I have 100k+ miles of EBC redstuff experience between 3 cars that I own or have owned. Been very happy with them.

I have heard that too, so I took a chance last year and bought a set of Yellow Stuff for my last track weekend. The Yellow Stuff completely ruined my Racing Brake 2pc rotors in two days. It had looked like the Yellow Stuff pads had literally ground away the rotor, including where you could actually see that they had pushed rotor material into the slots.

Now this was their Yellow Stuff (track compound) and I have zero experience with their Red Stuff and to be honest after what I saw, I will continue to have zero experience with any of the EBC stuff. Hey, it might be a great street compound.... but with Hawk, Carbotech and Cobalt Friction all making great street compounds, why would I go elsewhere?
 
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I do not resurface them, because I crack them way before that. My car is not a dedicated track car but I did do 12+ weekends last year. Autocross doesn't count because you are not going to get the rotors hot from braking at 40 mph compared to 120+ at the track. If you have 20 + years of using x-drilled rotors with no cracking, then you are not braking to the full potential of the car. Braking = speed ----> heat ----> cracking rotors.

car-photo-2006-ferrari-fxx-rolling-shot-hot-brakes.jpg




I have heard that too, so I took a chance last year and bought a set of Yellow Stuff for my last track weekend. The Yellow Stuff completely ruined my Racing Brake 2pc rotors in two days. It had looked like the Yellow Stuff pads had literally ground away the rotor, including where you could actually see that they had pushed rotor material into the slots.

Now this was their Yellow Stuff (track compound) and I have zero experience with their Red Stuff and to be honest after what I saw, I will continue to have zero experience with any of the EBC stuff. Hey, it might be a great street compound.... but with Hawk, Carbotech and Cobalt Friction all making great street compounds, why would I go elsewhere?


Ur experience with the Yellow stuff sounds like my friends experience with the Hawk pads.
 
Ur experience with the Yellow stuff sounds like my friends experience with the Hawk pads.

Hawk Blues - yes. They are VERY abrasive when cold. I actually use them to remove pad deposits by going out and making a few repeated stops when they are cold. But I would never leave them on and drive around the street with them.

The rest of Hawk's lineup including their DTC track pads are very rotor friendly, including when cold. Not to say it should be used as a street compound but they aren't going to chew up your rotors during the drive to/from the track when driven cold.
 
Hawk Blues - yes. They are VERY abrasive when cold. I actually use them to remove pad deposits by going out and making a few repeated stops when they are cold. But I would never leave them on and drive around the street with them.

The rest of Hawk's lineup including their DTC track pads are very rotor friendly, including when cold. Not to say it should be used as a street compound but they aren't going to chew up your rotors during the drive to/from the track when driven cold.


I'm not sure which Hawks they were, but his rotors looked something like this:

real-bad-rotor.jpg


Symtoms at Laguna Seca was severe brake vibration.

At night when we got on the brakes there were sparks flying everywhere.

The wheels were coated with lava brake dust and melted into the wheels.

We had to chisel the stuff off.

He's now an EBC user on his cars, bikes and MTB.
 
The hawk blues are pretty old school. That happens to the dust on hawk blues if you let it get wet (like sitting out for just 1 night).

Can't say I've ever seen a rotor like that though. Pretty crazy!
 
I have decided on a brake pad for track days - Hawk XP+

What I need now is a pad for everyday use that is nice and quiet, smooth and dust free. What would you suggest for that guys?

Also, Is it okay to change pads like that... somebody told me you never put new pads on a used rotor. So is it okay to flip back and forth on track days?

Does this change the bedding process?

J
 
I have decided on a brake pad for track days - Hawk XP+

What I need now is a pad for everyday use that is nice and quiet, smooth and dust free. What would you suggest for that guys?

Also, Is it okay to change pads like that... somebody told me you never put new pads on a used rotor. So is it okay to flip back and forth on track days?

Does this change the bedding process?

J

Part of my reason for choosing EBC redstuff is that they dust very little.

I have gloss black wheels and just like the rest of the car, it shows dust very easily.
 
I have decided on a brake pad for track days - Hawk XP+

What I need now is a pad for everyday use that is nice and quiet, smooth and dust free. What would you suggest for that guys?

Also, Is it okay to change pads like that... somebody told me you never put new pads on a used rotor. So is it okay to flip back and forth on track days?

Does this change the bedding process?

J

I think you mean Hawk HP+. :smile: You can run Hawk HPS or the Hawk Ceramics (but the Ceramic is low dust, low noise, low performance) for the street and switch back and forth. The HP+ are easy to get up to temp to bed in, unlike some track only pads which need extreme temps to bed in. You could actually bed them in on the way to the track on the highway. 60-40 med, 60-40 harder, 80-40 real hard, 80-40 real hard, 80-40 real hard and drive for 15 minutes without touching the brakes to cool. Ready to go.

Personally, I have run Hawk HP+ as a daily driver and only heard them squeal just a bit once blue moon 99.8% of the time they were silent. Now, dusting on the other hand - they dust like a mo-fo.

I use to run Autozone Wearever Gold $30/axle made in Mexico pads F/R for the street. They were quiet, didn't dust and cheap. And did they stop? Yep. Mid Ohio tested. :tongue:

BTW: BATMAN, correct me if I am wrong but I'm pretty sure the EBC Red is a Ceramic pad.
 
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Yes, you can use the Hawk HP+ for daily driving as well as track days. I do! The only downside for what you've mentioned is that they do tend to dust quite a bit. If this is a problem for you, then I recommend you instead use the stock pads for daily driving as well as track days.

Remember, all of these are brake pads, which means they will wear out. And if you're using them on the track, they will wear out quickly. What that means is, you can try something out, and it won't take long before you replace them - so if you don't like them for whatever reason, you can try something different next time.
 
Yes, you can use the Hawk HP+ for daily driving as well as track days. I do! The only downside for what you've mentioned is that they do tend to dust quite a bit. If this is a problem for you, then I recommend you instead use the stock pads for daily driving as well as track days.

Remember, all of these are brake pads, which means they will wear out. And if you're using them on the track, they will wear out quickly. What that means is, you can try something out, and it won't take long before you replace them - so if you don't like them for whatever reason, you can try something different next time.

DONE!

Hawks HP+ for the pads - on and off the track.

has anyone heard of brakeperformance.com ? they have some EXCELLENT pricing on rotors. I did a search on google for them and saw nothing but good reviews from forums from vettes to trucks. I even looked up the bbb and one complaint about the wrong brake pads, that was resolved amicably.

Anyone else using this on their NSX? It definitely looks interesting.
 

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I haven't used them.

The last time I bought brake pads - about a year ago - I did an extensive internet search for Hawk HP+ front pads for the NSX and ITR. Here's what I found at that time:

Discountperformanceautoparts.com - $93.65 (after discount) with free shipping
Topbrakes.com - $97.94 (free shipping over $100)
Ajusa.com - $97.95 shipped
Honsport.com - $90 plus shipping
No Limit - $103.78 (free shipping over $150)
mynismo.com - $99.08 plus shipping
tunersports.com - $110.27 shipped
Ultrarev.com - $102.55 plus shipping
Modacar.com - $103.78 plus shipping
Tire Rack - $111 plus shipping

I've now ordered from Discountperformanceautoparts.com several times and each time the pads show up a day or two later, no problems.

When I was shopping for rotors I found a huge selection and decent prices at the Tire Rack, so don't forget to check them out when you're shopping around.
 
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