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WP Pro Big Brake Kit | Why get Stoptech or Brembo?

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25 November 2009
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Chicago, IL

Evo12F.jpg


This is a new product for THMotorsports, and we are really happy to bring it you. We found this company in our search for a BBK for our Time Attack Car (www.thmracing.com). As you all know, we are very careful in what we choose, and being suspension guru's, we understand that the most important parts for racing and safety are Suspension, Brakes, and Tires (all equally). We also like to work with a company that manufactures their own product, and is an expert in what they do. WP met all of our needs and after finding out some industry secrets of who they produce for, we were floored and had to get their product. As well, it helped to know that they build in house, and can fix anything in house as well as build full custom. The company sells to Germany, so all products are TUV tested like KW's. That means quality is as high as it can go.

They have a specific application for the NSX. As one member said, they do not need shims or anything else. They are built and tested for the cars. The rotors are light weight and can be obtained in any color. Below, you will see a large selection of rotor sizes, disc sizes, colors, etc etc. that you can choose from. This makes it an ideal solution, as you are not stuck with a pre-made package. Read below, as this is a 100% winner.



WP History:

Directly from the owner-

"WP Pro started as Winner Speed in 1981, we started as a Tier 2 OEM supplier for
brake components, from calipers to rotors, during this time, we’ve also began developing
aftermarket turbo parts/kits for our Japanese customers. In 1982, we began development
for upgrade aftermarket brake components, such as high performance brake pads, crossdrilled
and/or slotted rotors, in this time frame, Winner Speed began to manufacture
components for mutli-piston calipers and began to use the brand of Winner Power, which
later becomes WP Pro
In 1993, we were contacted by several companies in developing multi-pistons
calipers that will utilize various pistons sizes in order to provide better stopping power, in
1995, our first 6 piston caliper prototypes have finish all various testing, it was in fact, the
first 6 piston calipers in the world that utilize various size pistons in the world, during
testing, we discovered one of the main advantages of such set up other than improved
braking power was the elimination of “abrupt stop” syndrome.
In 1997, our 6 pistons calipers were introduced to the North American market
under HP Racing, it was showcased at SEMA and the Birmingham Auto Show.
In 1999, we began development of the 8 piston calipers which is a break through
product, from the data we collected from the 8 piston calipers, we were able to design the
new 12 piston calipers that we called EVO12, which today is in its 2nd generation
During this time, we’ve began to manufacture for well known tuners through out
the world, in the 2000’s, we began to focus on developing WP Pro brand, our main
objective is the highest quality of big brake kit possible, providing both exclusivity and
individuality, without sacrificing performance and the ability to use the brakes on all
weathers.
In 2003, we expanded our manufacturing facility and updated all forging process
to 5000 tons cold forged utilizing T6061 material, it is an industry first.
In 2009, we developed the newest caliper line, the L8, it is based on our 8 piston
calipers design that have competed in FIA open wheel racing, with the main objectives of
2/3 of EVO12’s stopping power at ½ of EVO12’s price."


Industry Secrets
WP used to manufacture all of stop tech in the 90's and early 2000's. So when you guys were running Stop tech, you were running WP. As well, WP now manufactures for some big F1 teams and brands that have 2 letters and racing (I can't say what it is legally). They are a Canadian based manufacturer, so a lot of what we have in the USA is actually WP (not Megan BBK's or other low end brands). This is a chance to purchase factory direct, without getting big on name brands. This industry is fickle, and many manufactures claim they make their own products, yet, they just get them elsewhere. WP is the manufacture in this case, so its easy to see why to go with them, even though they haven't marketed heavily in the United States. As well, all WP brakes meet rigorous TUV standards in Germany. This means top quality, as the TUV does not make any exceptions.

Picture of WP, I mean Hamann
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What the kit comes with:
1. WP Rotors left and right
2. SS Brake lines
3. WP Performance pads (based on your driving type, a certain grade of pad will be supplied from street - full race)
4. All Brackets and Hardware(no shims needed)

Custom Options
1. Caliper Color: Choose anything you want, and color matches are available to your car
2. Brake Pads: Since WP Supplies from Street cars to F1 car's, you can choose the type of pads you want for your application
3. Specs: For race based applications, SCCA/NASA and other sanctioned racing organizations have rules based on rotor size/cooling plates/caliper depth etc. If you are building a car for a specific event, WP can easily work around whatever you need to create a custom solution. Unlilke many knockoff big brake kit brands, WP is machined in-house and tested in-house. Big difference!

Warranty
WP Brakes is a manufacture, and not just a re-seller like many big brake kits you see on the market. WP, as aforementioned builds in-house and is a full manufacturing facility. This means you can have your parts serviced anytime, and each kit comes with a year warranty. This warranty extends beyond that, as the staff is great to work with. This is very important, as many big brake kits sold in the USA under brands XYZ are just re-branded Nissan, or just no-name brand. Seals can leak, pistons can lock up etc. All of these services at any shop cost big money to fix and even more to replace. Knowing that WP can take care of everything in house is huge to you, and to THMotorsports, as these are used on our Redline Time Attack car.


6 Piston Calipers
S6F.jpg


8 Piston Calipers
S8F.jpg


The beast: 12 Piston Calipers
Evo12F.jpg



NSX (All Years)
HN13GP17 17" Wheel Minimum | Rotor Size: 336 x 30 x 46 | 6 Piston Calipers $1,945 MSRP
HN13HD17 17" Wheel Minimum | Rotor Size: 336 x 30 x 46 | 8 Piston Calipers $2,945 MSRP (18" Wheels Suggested)
HN13HD18 18" Wheel Minimum | Rotor Size: 360 x 30 x 46 | 8 Piston Calipers $3,245 MSRP


Rear system

HN13RRHP17 17" Wheel Minimum | Rotor Size: 336 x 30 x 46 | 6 Piston Calipers + Hand Brake Relocation Brackets: $2,645 MSRP

All street kits have a lead time of 2-3 weeks

How to order?: Call us at the number below

Call 1-800-959-0145 ext. 8 toll free and mention the sale
**Master Card, Visa, Discover, AMEX** OR PM US!!!!!!!
EMAIL: [email protected]
WE ALSO USE AIM: NickGTHM


Cars that use WP
IS350 12 piston
IMG_0818.jpg

IS350 12 piston (2)
DSC01136.jpg

Racing VW
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BMW Race Car
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Drift 350z
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I actually just spoke to Sam @ WP Pro. He told me, in verbatim, for all the kits that use the 336mm rotors, include the 8 piston calipers, they are meant to fit behind the factory 17" wheels that came on the NA2. The NA1 requires a 2-5mm space to clear the front for 8-piston calipers.

For the rear, they did make one with the e-brake. They keep the factory caliper to act as an e-brake.
 
With all due respect, if that is indeed what they told you then they must be smoking something that is still not legal .............!

For a company that claims to be supporting the racing industry with high end calipers to make a statement that the heavy OEM caliper in the rear is kept to be used as the default e-brake is totally absurd. I think since they are probably the supplier for AP?, most likely what they meant to say is the rear OEM calipers are retained, and they offer their WP rotors for the rears and not another separate caliper.

Furthermore, what are the clamping forces of their brake/pistons recommended for NSX application, and what is the brake balance front/rear?
 
With all due respect, if that is indeed what they told you then they must be smoking something that is still not legal .............!

And not sharing, either! :mad:

...most likely what they meant to say is the rear OEM calipers are retained, and they offer their WP rotors for the rears and not another separate caliper.

Don't think so...

Rear system
HN13RRHP17 17" Wheel Minimum | Rotor Size: 336 x 30 x 46 | 6 Piston Calipers + Hand Brake Relocation Brackets: $2,645 MSRP

"Hand Brake Relocation Brackets"??? $2,645 it better be more than a new rotor and a bracket.
 
I have had bad experience with this bbk in 2002.
IIRC, this BBK made in Taiwan! (vendor told me that it was made in Canada so I was wrong)
If anyone would like more info, I can disclose but I am not posting it on here.
 
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From their website: http://www.wpprobrakes.com/advantage.htm

07.

Brakes the pros use
WP Pro brake systems are the same brake systems we use on our racing cars. What we learn on the racetrack we use to continuously improve our braking technology. We figure if it's good enough for the racetrack, it's good enough to sell.



-They don't say what race series they sponsor/have products in, and their website is very vague.


Oh and More pistons DOES NOT MEAN better brake bite, torque, or performance.
 
No one ever said that more pistons equal more stopping power, although that is a common misconception. It often translates into more modulation, and better cooling.

For our time attack STi, they did quite a bit of customization which yielded some awesome results.

The brake system consists of the following:
Front axle:
336mm x 30 x 46mm rotors with L8 calipers

Rear axle:
334mm x 30 x 46mm rotors with S6 calipers

The whole systems are based off off-shelve kits but have been significantly modified specifically for the car.

here are some list of modifications:
- All caliper pistons have been lighten, heat treated, carbon nitride treated, cross-drilled for vent
- The rotors have been balanced up to equivalent of 224mph
- Lightened rotor hat assembly: the complete front rotors weight less than 13lbs, factory is about 24lbs.
- The brake pads backing plates are have air grooves build in
- During testing, on competition's similar set up, the rotors runs about 150 degrees-200 degrees (celcius) cooler, and the pads are consistently 50 degrees (celcius) cooler over 90mins brake dyno session.
 
- During testing, on competition's similar set up, the rotors runs about 150 degrees-200 degrees (celcius) cooler, and the pads are consistently 50 degrees (celcius) cooler over 90mins brake dyno session.

Ah... I'm going to have to call bull shit on this one. :rolleyes: 200c = 392 degrees F. Cooler? You are saying that a WP setup will run 392F cooler than Brand X setup under the same 90 min brake dyno session? No way, not possible, full of crap, fuzzy math. Absurd!

If you said 50F or even 75F it might even be debatable or believable. But 392F cooler under the same conditions is Scientology unbelievable.

Don't get me wrong - they look great. Great bling for someone who just streets their cars.
 
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Not possible? Why is that?

I don't think WP made up these number to impress the internet. This is simply the information they supplied us with.

If you have specific questions in regards to these kits, please feel free to PM or call me. Heck, I can even put you in contact with Sam from WP.
 
Fuzzy math? Yes, but it is CL65Captain with the fuzzy math. Yes, 200 celsius does equal 392F, but you are talking a difference of 150-200C degrees. Here is an example; suppose the WP brakes are 200C at testing, then the brand X rotors would be 350-400C based on the claim. Converting to fahrenheit the WP brakes would be 392F and the brand X rotors 662-752F. Thus, the WP brakes would range from 270-360F degrees cooler. As the temperature goes up the difference becomes greater and vice versa is also true.
 
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As the temperature goes up the difference becomes greater and vice versa is also true.

yes but the laws of physics remain constant. It's an absurd claim that I would be willing to bet my NSX on.

You could be peeing on that WP rotor and you still couldn't get it to run THAT much cooler. I'm not making a judgment on whether or not the WPs run cooler, I am making a judgment on their claim of HOW MUCH.
 
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Fuzzy math? Yes, but it is CL65Captain with the fuzzy math. Yes, 200 celsius does equal 392F, but you are talking a difference of 150-200C degrees. Here is an example; suppose the WP brakes are 200C at testing, then the brand X rotors would be 350-400C based on the claim. Converting to fahrenheit the WP brakes would be 392F and the brand X rotors 662-752F. Thus, the WP brakes would range from 270-360F degrees cooler. As the temperature goes up the difference becomes greater and vice versa is also true.
:confused:
 
I like this thread!

We are in fact running the WP system on our STi. That picture you posted up is from before the car was even brought in for modification, but thank you for visiting the site!

I spoke to Sam again regarding clamping forces, here is his response, truncated a bit.

Clamp force basically refers to the function between the pad and the disc as a whole, with an important factor being the pad displacement, which is usually denoted as the characteristic curve of the caliper (which will change over time).

Clamping force is irrelevant unless the car is brake-by-wire. Since there is no mechanical connection between the pedal and the caliper itself, the computer within the braking system needs to take various calculations before to assert appropriate forces on the braking hydraulic/electric motors.

Below is a basic calculation on how much force they can estimate each caliper can assert with given piston sizes in comparison to the factory single/dual sliding piston calipers.

Basically w/o the introduction of friction, the brake will be completely useless.

clampforce.jpg


Sam is also going to send me some graphs from their pad wear patterns. The graph will be 2 axis, coefficient of friction vs temp. That should help to clear some things up as well.
 
Appreciate the math, but to simplify matters for those of us who are more limited with physics, here is a chart that was put together (by an NSX tracking engineer as far as I know) for some reference - click on the brake bias tab.

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/index_browse_part.cfm?focus=1228

Unless one wants to play with different pad options for f/r, or use the OEM calipers with RB or similar rotors, as far as BBK go for the NSX, the Stoptech seems to have the proper brake bias as a package. DaliRacing's 4/2 pots/RB rotors for 17" wheels appears to be similar in brake bias to the Stoptech but still not available based on the info. I don't have info on Performance Friction brakes that Billy is commenting on.

Now, what is Sam/WP is saying about e-brake option again?
 
For the sake of comparison, I will attach some pictures of the WP L6 caliper next to a big brand caliper (to remain un-named). This un-named caliper is very similar to those offered by 2 other large BBK manufacturers.

As you can see in the pictures, the pad area is nearly identical, yet the overhang on the caliper itself is cut down significantly. Since the WP calipers are forged, they dont need the extra overhang that cast calipers need to increase their thermal mass.

While they may not look as "baller" (on account of being smaller), it will brake just as well if not better. The attached picture is just a bare body as well, with no coating on it. As you can see the fluid passage is alot smoother, whereas most calipers just have holes passing through the piston bores (which equates to the lower operating temp).

caliper2.jpg


This second picture is a comparison of the assembled bodies. The larger one is 8pot and the smaller is the L6 body. You can see the larger pad size compared to the others. As you can see the WP L8 is again larger than the un-named caliper.

caliper1.jpg
 
as far as BBK go for the NSX, the Stoptech seems to have the proper brake bias as a package.

Depends... according to that chart:

Stoptech F/R-> 63.74%
OEM 91-96 ---> 61.59%
OEM 97-05 ---> 54.02%
2002 Type R--> 55..24%
Brembo --> 50.00%

So.... according to that table a Stoptech F/R is too front biased for a stock 97+ or a 2002 Type R :rolleyes:

It also really depends on tire size, and suspension setup what is the correct bias. Now add brake compound to the mix. :)

So... a Brembo F/R with a more aggressive F compound than R should give a closer to OEM bias. The question is what actually is the bias? You would have to do testing and try several compounds or go to a brake bias adjuster.
 
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As far as brake bias goes, WP offers a few different caliper sizes.

20mm
25mm
30mm
35mm

Since the brake kit will be using 336mm front rotors and 334mm rear, the L6/S6 combo bias will be very close to 58-60%.

If you want to use a 360mm with the 8pot, the bias will be in the range of 65-69%, if the calculations arent off.
 
BTW: Hrant I almost forgot.... those figures in Dali's table are way off for 97+ because it was based on piston size, etc and the 97+ brakes have a "secret" inline brake bias valve. I say secret because it's only mentioned once in the manual and it is not in the brakes diagram page in the service manual it's only shown on the parts diagram. 91-96 don't have this part.
So only Honda really knows what the bias is of the 97+.

part is 46210-SLO-003 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING
It is under System Name / Component : BRAKE LINES (2)

It was the source of my mushy brake problem last year and I replaced it with a new one and my problem went away.
 
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