wrong place at the wrong time??

[nsxtasy]

a guy in a Porsche squeezed me and we touched on the straight away because he didn't watch his mirror and see me passing him. This is on a straightaway! Maybe because he didn't expect me to be able to pass him with ease since he drives a race prep Porsche while I drive a lowly civic.

In most driving schools (HPDE events), passing signals by the driver being passed are required, for this very reason (even in the instructor run groups). With required signals, he should have signaled (which means he knew you were there), and if he hadn't signaled, you shouldn't have passed.

In competition events, of course, signals aren't used, but the drivers should know better.

In either case, there's no excuse for such an incident.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

In most driving schools (HPDE events), passing signals by the driver being passed are required, for this very reason (even in the instructor run groups). With required signals, he should have signaled (which means he knew you were there), and if he hadn't signaled, you shouldn't have passed.

It was open passing/advanced group. No point by required.

 

[nsxtasy]

It was open passing/advanced group. No point by required.

Then everyone should understand the rules, which means it's the slower driver's responsibility to know when someone is behind him and passing. And it's his fault for not paying attention, since that is entirely his responsibility according to the rules.

However, this can also be considered "laxer safety rules" than events where passing signals are required. At all the BMW CCA and Chin Motorsports events I've attended, signals are required, even in the instructor run group. I'm not saying it's unsafe to have open passing in the advanced group, but it requires more responsibility on the part of the drivers (and, apparently, more responsibility than at least one of them was capable of handling).

Again, no matter what the rules are and how well they are communicated, incidents can still occur as a result of one person being stupid and/or not following them...

 

[OneRedNSX]

How can you be prepared for an accident? The NSX wasnt even moving I think your just an idiot and there is no need to further this moronic conversation. Dude, its 2006 and your still rockin' MOMO rims. Enough said:biggrin: Chrome?:tongue:

Cars don't get hit when they aren't moving? Damn, I would have thought that had happened before with all the cars running around Guess I was wrong :tongue:

And yes, I know what year it is but the rims / tires came on the car and had like 80% of their tread left.

On a good note, I do have 3 other sets of rims / tires sitting around.



And yes, they are chrome. Duh. (I can't help the previous owner didn't have excellent taste in post 90's rims )

I'd put the black stockers on there but the guy I bought them from actually had some really nice track tires on there so I prefer to only put them on when I let my g/f autocross :smile:

 

[GreggMarkarian]

it's the slower driver's responsibility to know when someone is behind him and passing

I have to dispute that one Ken. In any open passing situation, it is always the passing driver's responsibility to make a safe pass. The passing driver HAS to assume the car ahead has NO idea he is there. That's straight out of SCCA's General Competition Rulebook, and I can't imagine any organization doing it differently. Imagine an arrangement where any guy could come up from behind and sideswipe you and it'd be your fault? You wouldn't catch me at that club's events.
-Gregg

 

[nsxtasy]

I have to dispute that one Ken. In any open passing situation, it is always the passing driver's responsibility to make a safe pass. The passing driver HAS to assume the car ahead has NO idea he is there. That's straight out of SCCA's General Competition Rulebook, and I can't imagine any organization doing it differently. Imagine an arrangement where any guy could come up from behind and sideswipe you and it'd be your fault? You wouldn't catch me at that club's events.

Okay, that was supposition on my part, and I may have been wrong. I don't participate in events that permit passing without a signal from the driver being passed. With required signals, there is no doubt whether the car being passed knows that the other car will be alongside.

However, under open passing, even if it is the passing driver's responsibility to make a safe pass, does that mean that the driver being passed has no responsibility for staying out of the way? What if the driver being passed decides to sideswipe the passing car? The way you describe the rules, that would be the fault of the passing car! (I'm not disagreeing with you regarding what the rules say, but it seems like that just reverses the fault situation, which still doesn't depend on proper behavior by both drivers.)

If it is the passing driver's responsibility to make a safe pass, then the incident Andrie described was his own fault, rather than the Porsche driver's. Maybe Andrie could comment.

It seems to me that it is of the utmost importance, in any event, that all drivers have a common understanding regarding who is responsible for passing - whether it's "everyone looking out for himself" or "the passing driver is responsible for safety" or "the driver being passed is responsible for safety". The fact that even those of us here aren't in agreement about who is responsible for safe passing under "open passing rules" shows that a common understanding can't be expected to be a given, and that open passing can represent a safety issue.

 

[GreggMarkarian]

even if it is the passing driver's responsibility to make a safe pass, does that mean that the driver being passed has no responsibility for staying out of the way? What if the driver being passed decides to sideswipe the passing car? The way you describe the rules, that would be the fault of the passing car!

In my experience racing with the SCCA Showroom Stock and Skip Barber's Formula2000 series, the line and the corner belong to the lead car until the passing car's DRIVER is alongside the lead car's FRONT AXLE. If you can't get that far ahead of him by the turn-in point, its still his corner, and any contact he makes with you is your fault. Commonly referred to as 'sticking your nose in somewhere it shouldn't be' or 'driving in a car's blind spot'. If you're alongside a guy's C-pillar on the straightaway and he decides to move to the center of the track and hits you, its your fault. He was ahead of you, its his line, whatever line he wants to take. You can't sit in a guy's blindspot. That's why, when you go to make a pass, you make it quick, and give him room as if he has no idea you're there.

Now, granted, I'm talking about true wheel-to-wheel racing rules, not HPDE. But when you talk about an HPDE event with a session that allows passing anywhere on the track and without point-bys - that sounds pretty much like wheel-to-wheel racing to me.

-Gregg

 

[VintageracerNYC]

In my HONEST opinion these HPDE's are more dangerous than sanctioned racing bodies due to the huge discrepancies in car speed and driver skill as well as not knowing the experience of corner workers...there are corner workers arent there? I realized at an early age that if I could not afford to lose 100% of my car I would never track it.......of course I mean in racing....NOT drivers ed classes!

 

[nsxtasy]

In my HONEST opinion these HPDE's are more dangerous than sanctioned racing bodies due to the huge discrepancies in car speed and driver skill

Quite the contrary. At the events held by the more structured organizations, the organizers do a great job in dividing the cars into run groups (and re-assigning cars as needed as the event proceeds) so that there are no huge discrepancies in overall speeds.

as well as not knowing the experience of corner workers...there are corner workers arent there?

In my HONEST opinion it sounds you like you have never been to any of these events and you have no idea how they are conducted. In my HONEST opinion, if that is true, you should not be making claims about them.

 

[btcog82]

chrome or momo? whats wrong?

Ok, I was reading the one post about chrome momo wheels on this thread about 3 or 4 posts up^...Whats wrong with chrome wheels? Or is there something wrong with momo wheels?

I happen to like the bling...

Don't you?

 

[scorp965]

Re: chrome or momo? whats wrong?

Ok, I was reading the one post about chrome momo wheels on this thread about 3 or 4 posts up^...Whats wrong with chrome wheels? Or is there something wrong with momo wheels?

I happen to like the bling...
Don't you?

I love chrome wheels........
























on my 7-series :biggrin:

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

I have to dispute that one Ken. In any open passing situation, it is always the passing driver's responsibility to make a safe pass. The passing driver HAS to assume the car ahead has NO idea he is there. That's straight out of SCCA's General Competition Rulebook, and I can't imagine any organization doing it differently. Imagine an arrangement where any guy could come up from behind and sideswipe you and it'd be your fault? You wouldn't catch me at that club's events.
-Gregg

I wish I have the video Gregg.

It was on a straightaway. I was passing on the outside. His front wheel touch my driver door as he squeezed me to the wall. I can't do anything else when I'm clearly half a car in front of him already.

Also regarding it is always the passer responsibility, there is a great article about passing by Randy Pobst. Everyone who is SCCA member should received SportsCar Magazine. The article was published in late 2004. Sorry don't remember the exact date. But it is a great read and eye opener.

 

[GreggMarkarian]

His front wheel touch my driver door as he squeezed me to the wall

Then you obviously had the lead by the time he hit you. That sucks.

I'll listen to anything Pobst says. He's the real deal. We 'raced together' in SS back in the 90s. By that I mean I could see his rear bumper about 10 cars ahead of mine on the grid.

 

[RacerX-21]

Insurance- DE stands for Driver Education and this education provides real world experiences that could teach people to be better/safer drivers. I used “could” because everyone is limited by his or her personal learning capacity. These events are not race schools or timed race events. Educated drivers avoid more accidents, and accident free drivers are exactly what the insurance companies want. DE’s are conducted on a closed course that arguably affords additional safety, including corner observation, 2-way radios, ambulance service, etc. In some formats they offer full time instructors, classroom instruction, and require head protection. This tape is an example of an accident, but many other people learned a thing or two from seeing it. Speed is the line some are using to separate insurable vs. not insurable, but it’s the speed that familiarizes the typical driver with the limits of their automobile. Good information to know when presented with an emergency situation. Preparation is an important roll in your success with sports or normal life. I know the distance it takes to bring my car to a stop from 70 mph on the highway. I also know that I’m less likely to panic at that ridiculously slow speed, and I know not to jerk it to a spin that will take longer to stop, and I defiantly know that turning into the grass will take even longer to stop. How do I know this? Simple I have been there in a controlled environment. Here’s what I learned from that video…
1st) This person didn’t know what to do when he dropped two wheels doing 70 mph, or what would happen when he tried to get back on the pavement. Now, hopefully he does know what to do next time. This should have been explained in classroom, and should have been verified by his instructor.

2nd) Yes the track needs a barrier.

Point is- if this scenario happened on the street without helmets, you might have had a fatality.

Do people wreck cars in DE’s? Yes
Do people wreck cars on the street? Yes
Do DE wrecks increase the premiums for the general population? Yes
Does DE instruction reduce accidents on the street? Likely
Does the reduction of accidents offset the liability of the wrecks in DE’s? Likely

And it’s hard to put a value on the lives it might save. I’m tired of ignorant people… especially on our streets!